I give up.... for a while....
Discussion
400SE rear wheel bearing saga Part III
Replacement upright from a 1990 350i arrived last week so I've cleaned it up removed the old bearing, fitted one of my new ones which this time needed to be pressed in (sort of backed up my original theory) Painted the part as it was a bit manky and today I have had the big socket out again and swapped the upright...
And...
It's exactly the same
I really don't get this, it's just the same, very little play in the horizontal plane, but a load in the vertical plane which sort of rules out the bearing, the play also stays in the same plane as you rotate the wheel which rules out anything that is rotating (as the play would move as wheel does ?), but there is a definite "clunk" that has now been there for 3 wheel bearings and two uprights, and I know its not the U/J's as its the same with the upright stood on a jack and no load on the suspension.
Maybe 1990 is a crap vintage for uprights ?????
My next plan is to a) ignore the problem for a while and then b) remove the bearing from the upright I just took off and get it checked for ovality, I'm seriously considering welding the bloody bearing in on my "spare" upright, if only to rule that out !
b
ks 
etc...
A few things have gone OK, boot lock now fixed, driving lights now work and I found central locking solenoids in the front doors - just need to find where the wiring goes....
Replacement upright from a 1990 350i arrived last week so I've cleaned it up removed the old bearing, fitted one of my new ones which this time needed to be pressed in (sort of backed up my original theory) Painted the part as it was a bit manky and today I have had the big socket out again and swapped the upright...
And...
It's exactly the same
I really don't get this, it's just the same, very little play in the horizontal plane, but a load in the vertical plane which sort of rules out the bearing, the play also stays in the same plane as you rotate the wheel which rules out anything that is rotating (as the play would move as wheel does ?), but there is a definite "clunk" that has now been there for 3 wheel bearings and two uprights, and I know its not the U/J's as its the same with the upright stood on a jack and no load on the suspension.
Maybe 1990 is a crap vintage for uprights ?????
My next plan is to a) ignore the problem for a while and then b) remove the bearing from the upright I just took off and get it checked for ovality, I'm seriously considering welding the bloody bearing in on my "spare" upright, if only to rule that out !
b
ks etc...A few things have gone OK, boot lock now fixed, driving lights now work and I found central locking solenoids in the front doors - just need to find where the wiring goes....
Edited by B@man on Saturday 13th June 17:03
Could have shown you my solenoids, but just put the door back together this afty after fixing the window lifter.
Why don't you give Richard Thorpe a ring about the bearings/uprights ?
He'll be able to tell what's right and what is wrong.
Gonna have to give mine a good scrub before BBWF; it's grubby as hell.
No point yet though...another blast out in a few mins, and another layer of insect life.
Why don't you give Richard Thorpe a ring about the bearings/uprights ?
He'll be able to tell what's right and what is wrong.
Gonna have to give mine a good scrub before BBWF; it's grubby as hell.
No point yet though...another blast out in a few mins, and another layer of insect life.
sorry to hear your problems Simon BUT
WILL YOU ALL STOP MENTIONING THE BBWF AS I AM GUTTED ENOUGH ALREADY
that I can't make it this year for a few beers with you boys. LOL
I will of course raise a free (all inclusive) beer to you all
next Saturday while laid on Playa D'en Bossa in Ibiza
Have a good one and sorry can'r be with you in body
Cheers
Richard
WILL YOU ALL STOP MENTIONING THE BBWF AS I AM GUTTED ENOUGH ALREADY
that I can't make it this year for a few beers with you boys. LOL
I will of course raise a free (all inclusive) beer to you all
next Saturday while laid on Playa D'en Bossa in Ibiza
Have a good one and sorry can'r be with you in body
Cheers
Richard
Trickie Dickie said:
sorry to hear your problems Simon BUT
WILL YOU ALL STOP MENTIONING THE BBWF AS I AM GUTTED ENOUGH ALREADY
that I can't make it this year for a few beers with you boys. LOL
I will of course raise a free (all inclusive) beer to you all
next Saturday while laid on Playa D'en Bossa in Ibiza
Have a good one and sorry can'r be with you in body
Cheers
Richard
BBWFWILL YOU ALL STOP MENTIONING THE BBWF AS I AM GUTTED ENOUGH ALREADY
that I can't make it this year for a few beers with you boys. LOL
I will of course raise a free (all inclusive) beer to you all
next Saturday while laid on Playa D'en Bossa in Ibiza
Have a good one and sorry can'r be with you in body
Cheers
Richard
BBWF
BBWF
BBWF
Have a good holiday mate, There's always next year
Getting back on topic...
OK so if you have pressed the bearing shell into the hub carrier, if there were any ovality there I would have thought you could get a feeler guage in there at the top/bottom of the shell. Can you?
You are remembering to put back in the big circlip after the bearing goes in?
Is the stub axle nice and true where the 'shoulder' is - that mates onto the inner race? Any bumps on the edges will eat the bearing in no time.
When you torque up the hub nut at first (don't forget the big washer that goes in) do you do it initially with no load on the suspension? I would give it at least 50lbf at this stage. Use a spanner through the UJ to stop it moving, and turn the hub a bit to settle in the balls. Then out the suspension back on and jack it up to level to take the normal weight, and torque it up to the 220lbf there.
OK so if you have pressed the bearing shell into the hub carrier, if there were any ovality there I would have thought you could get a feeler guage in there at the top/bottom of the shell. Can you?
You are remembering to put back in the big circlip after the bearing goes in?
Is the stub axle nice and true where the 'shoulder' is - that mates onto the inner race? Any bumps on the edges will eat the bearing in no time.
When you torque up the hub nut at first (don't forget the big washer that goes in) do you do it initially with no load on the suspension? I would give it at least 50lbf at this stage. Use a spanner through the UJ to stop it moving, and turn the hub a bit to settle in the balls. Then out the suspension back on and jack it up to level to take the normal weight, and torque it up to the 220lbf there.
Hi Adam
Right I've been back out in the garage and I can get a 0.05mm feeler gauge between the top of the bearing and the housing, I can't get the same gauge in at either side..
I Did put the circlip back, and still have the scratches to prove it, interestingly the inner face of the circlip is really worn indicating that the bearing could have spun at some point, however there was no perceivable play "in and out" I will order a new one before I put everything back once I have found the root cause !!
Checked the fit of the bearing on the stub axle a few weeks ago and it's fine - I'd expect play here to move as the bearing is rotated rather than stay in the same plane regardless of the position of the wheel.
The back of the drive flange was a little uneven so I've tidied it up using a flat plate and grinding paste, made bugger all difference !
The fact that the play is consistently in same plane has convinced me that its the bearing housing not the bearing.
I've inspected the bearing I just took out and there are some witness marks around the middle, looking into the housing there is also some evidence of corrosion between the bearing and the carrier, which is interesting as there should not be space for rust to get a hold.
I'm taking the bits to work tomorrow as we have a rather nice (expensive) machine that can measure anything to the nearest micron, hopefully that should provide an insight and a 3D drawing of what is going on.
I know one thing, I'm not fitting any more bloody oil seals until I've found the problem !
Right I've been back out in the garage and I can get a 0.05mm feeler gauge between the top of the bearing and the housing, I can't get the same gauge in at either side..
I Did put the circlip back, and still have the scratches to prove it, interestingly the inner face of the circlip is really worn indicating that the bearing could have spun at some point, however there was no perceivable play "in and out" I will order a new one before I put everything back once I have found the root cause !!
Checked the fit of the bearing on the stub axle a few weeks ago and it's fine - I'd expect play here to move as the bearing is rotated rather than stay in the same plane regardless of the position of the wheel.
The back of the drive flange was a little uneven so I've tidied it up using a flat plate and grinding paste, made bugger all difference !
The fact that the play is consistently in same plane has convinced me that its the bearing housing not the bearing.
I've inspected the bearing I just took out and there are some witness marks around the middle, looking into the housing there is also some evidence of corrosion between the bearing and the carrier, which is interesting as there should not be space for rust to get a hold.
I'm taking the bits to work tomorrow as we have a rather nice (expensive) machine that can measure anything to the nearest micron, hopefully that should provide an insight and a 3D drawing of what is going on.
I know one thing, I'm not fitting any more bloody oil seals until I've found the problem !
Yes that does sound like it, there should be an even fit all around the bearing shell.
What to do about it next?
Well you certainly need to pack out the hub carrier somehow to regain circularity in the hole.
Ideally it could be welded to build up more metal, then turned down again, but I can't see amyone being able to put a whole suspension arm in a lathe.
Another possibility might be to use epoxy or liquid metal to pack the gap, but if it breaks down you'll be back to square one.
As for the root cause it might be that the hub carrier has corroded a lot internally and the circular sheet forming the bearing hole has got weak, or alternatively the car has had a high stress on that wheel, maybe you've been getting air over humpback bridges ;^)
It might be easier to get another trailing arm or bottom wishbone (depending on suspension type.)
What to do about it next?
Well you certainly need to pack out the hub carrier somehow to regain circularity in the hole.
Ideally it could be welded to build up more metal, then turned down again, but I can't see amyone being able to put a whole suspension arm in a lathe.
Another possibility might be to use epoxy or liquid metal to pack the gap, but if it breaks down you'll be back to square one.
As for the root cause it might be that the hub carrier has corroded a lot internally and the circular sheet forming the bearing hole has got weak, or alternatively the car has had a high stress on that wheel, maybe you've been getting air over humpback bridges ;^)
It might be easier to get another trailing arm or bottom wishbone (depending on suspension type.)
Hi Adam,
I have replaced the bearing housing and the replacement is just the same
it's original bearing (which fell apart in the post) appears to have been held in with a liberal coating of Loctite stud n' bearing fit,
Anyway it may not have fixed the problem but at least I have one housing to play with and another to drive the car on.
Once I know how much out of true the hole is I can then look at either welding and machining (big gap) or Loctite (small gap)
Now I know it won't fall apart it can clatter until winter, can't be bad enough to fail the MOT as it must have been like that for years (fingers crossed etc..)
I have replaced the bearing housing and the replacement is just the same
it's original bearing (which fell apart in the post) appears to have been held in with a liberal coating of Loctite stud n' bearing fit, Anyway it may not have fixed the problem but at least I have one housing to play with and another to drive the car on.
Once I know how much out of true the hole is I can then look at either welding and machining (big gap) or Loctite (small gap)
Now I know it won't fall apart it can clatter until winter, can't be bad enough to fail the MOT as it must have been like that for years (fingers crossed etc..)
Edited by B@man on Wednesday 17th June 18:40
I think I know...
Have a GOOD look at your inboard UJs. I have exactly the same symptoms (been giving the car a pre-MOT) - wheel clunks when moved vertically but not horizontally. Thought both bearings had failed but then I realised that the wheel was moving WITH the hub carrier. Fingers in the outboard UJs showed no play but could hear and feel a definite clonk. Got a 500W floodlight and was able to watch the inboard UJ yokes moving. Not surprising really, they get a lot of stick with the axle acting as the top link.
So no more Grand Prix starts for me for a while (at least until the car has a ticket
)... to be fair I haven't changed a UJ in 9 years. Actually longer; I did the Tasmin's in about '96 
Other issues I've tackled lately include the perpetually feeble handbrake, headlamp aim, new wiper blade, front tyres, tracking, suspension bushes, l/h steering rack boot (again
)
Have a GOOD look at your inboard UJs. I have exactly the same symptoms (been giving the car a pre-MOT) - wheel clunks when moved vertically but not horizontally. Thought both bearings had failed
but then I realised that the wheel was moving WITH the hub carrier. Fingers in the outboard UJs showed no play but could hear and feel a definite clonk. Got a 500W floodlight and was able to watch the inboard UJ yokes moving. Not surprising really, they get a lot of stick with the axle acting as the top link.So no more Grand Prix starts for me for a while (at least until the car has a ticket
)... to be fair I haven't changed a UJ in 9 years. Actually longer; I did the Tasmin's in about '96 Other issues I've tackled lately include the perpetually feeble handbrake, headlamp aim, new wiper blade, front tyres, tracking, suspension bushes, l/h steering rack boot (again
)Cheers Ian,
Unfortunately the hub does not move so the play has to be in the Hub !
Had a Chat with Dave from Automedon at BBWF who has seen exactly the problem on A frame cars, his solution was a bearing with a larger OD and a bit of machining.
The play in the bearing was no responsible for the clunking, I found that the tie arm bushes had the wrong length bolts (shank too short) so the bush was wobbling on the bolt and the bolt wobbling in the chassis.
Unfortunately the hub does not move so the play has to be in the Hub !
Had a Chat with Dave from Automedon at BBWF who has seen exactly the problem on A frame cars, his solution was a bearing with a larger OD and a bit of machining.
The play in the bearing was no responsible for the clunking, I found that the tie arm bushes had the wrong length bolts (shank too short) so the bush was wobbling on the bolt and the bolt wobbling in the chassis.
B@man said:
Cheers Ian,
Unfortunately the hub does not move so the play has to be in the Hub !
Had a Chat with Dave from Automedon at BBWF who has seen exactly the problem on A frame cars, his solution was a bearing with a larger OD and a bit of machining.
The play in the bearing was no responsible for the clunking, I found that the tie arm bushes had the wrong length bolts (shank too short) so the bush was wobbling on the bolt and the bolt wobbling in the chassis.
Ah OK, sorry, 2AM technical postings never a good idea Unfortunately the hub does not move so the play has to be in the Hub !
Had a Chat with Dave from Automedon at BBWF who has seen exactly the problem on A frame cars, his solution was a bearing with a larger OD and a bit of machining.
The play in the bearing was no responsible for the clunking, I found that the tie arm bushes had the wrong length bolts (shank too short) so the bush was wobbling on the bolt and the bolt wobbling in the chassis.
Yep thats the plan as I now have more standard bearings than I know what to do with.
Plan is to get the inside measured to find out exactly where it needs building up, Get the bloke who welded my drainpipe up to build up the area with his Tig and then onto the machine shop to get it machined round again...
Having spoken to my local engine reconditioners they reckon they can use the boring machine as its about the same size a some the motorcycle cylinders, they also have a FB lathe
Hopefully we won't get to part IV...
Plan is to get the inside measured to find out exactly where it needs building up, Get the bloke who welded my drainpipe up to build up the area with his Tig and then onto the machine shop to get it machined round again...
Having spoken to my local engine reconditioners they reckon they can use the boring machine as its about the same size a some the motorcycle cylinders, they also have a FB lathe
Hopefully we won't get to part IV...
Edited by B@man on Friday 26th June 20:16
Gassing Station | Wedges | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff