RS Focus/ST170
Discussion
Understanding age and mileage comes into factor but vaguely is the RS focus worth 7-8K more than a ST170??
I'll word it a different way, is the RS twice the car the ST170 is?
I'm fully aware of how the two cars differ in every respect, just wanted to know what your opinion on the matter was, purely on a finacial basis.
I'll word it a different way, is the RS twice the car the ST170 is?
I'm fully aware of how the two cars differ in every respect, just wanted to know what your opinion on the matter was, purely on a finacial basis.
It's not just a case of the RS being worth more by being twice the car, it is just holding it's value better. At the time, a fully loaded ST170 and the RS were pretty much the same price.
The Focus RS is Limited run of 4.5k cars, the ST170 was a mass produced modern age XR3i.
RS was a ground up rebuild of the Focus, the ST is just a standard Focus with tweaks and bits bolted on.
The ST170 has also been superceded by the current ST, which will also knock down it's value.
To answer your question, IMO, yes the RS is pretty much twice the car. Others may disagree, but I base my opinion on previously owning an ST170 and currently owning the RS.
In fact, when I owned the ST170, I was fortunate enough to be leant an RS for 7 weeks to use whilst the owner was away in America, they came back, took their car, I got back in the ST170 and nearly cried at the dissapointment in the comparative lack of performance and the plain Jane styling, all for nigh on the same money. The ST170 was sold within a week of getting back in it such was my dissapointment.
The Focus RS is Limited run of 4.5k cars, the ST170 was a mass produced modern age XR3i.
RS was a ground up rebuild of the Focus, the ST is just a standard Focus with tweaks and bits bolted on.
The ST170 has also been superceded by the current ST, which will also knock down it's value.
To answer your question, IMO, yes the RS is pretty much twice the car. Others may disagree, but I base my opinion on previously owning an ST170 and currently owning the RS.
In fact, when I owned the ST170, I was fortunate enough to be leant an RS for 7 weeks to use whilst the owner was away in America, they came back, took their car, I got back in the ST170 and nearly cried at the dissapointment in the comparative lack of performance and the plain Jane styling, all for nigh on the same money. The ST170 was sold within a week of getting back in it such was my dissapointment.
Edited by :J: on Friday 8th February 12:00
Evilbat said:
BUT....if you turbo an ST170 with the difference in price between the two on the second hand market, you'll have a car that will muller an RS and have a higher specification.
My ST170 almost fully loaded was £16500 in Jan 04, as opposed to a used RS at £18000 without the "toys".
I thought the engines in both ST and RS were Duratec ? So if you stick a turbo on the ST170, would you not have the same as the RS ? In which case, how would it muller the RS ?My ST170 almost fully loaded was £16500 in Jan 04, as opposed to a used RS at £18000 without the "toys".
Just out of interest, what are "the toys" ? Do you mean the options ? Because I would swap some funky headlights for a set of brembos anyday. Climate Control or Quaife diff, no turbo or Garrett Turbo ? 17" Ford wheels or 18" OZ, Ford leather interior, or Sparco leather and suede, a better gearbox by a mile and everything in the car will happily take 270ish bhp without upgrading any parts
Rebuilt from the ground up for the track, it's an RS, it was a limited run of 4.5k, it was a loss leader and IIRC, was actually worth £26k, it's got a bodykit on it, it's won a few awards, it will take you around the track quicker than any CTR or Impreza WRX (if standard) and so on and so on.....
However, if you think the addition of a turbo to an ST170 will bring it on a par with the RS, then you just keep on dreaming
I believe Xenons and Climate Control are the only things you can get on an ST170 and not the RS ?Stand to be corrected though. Do these things make it a higher spec, or does the sum of the parts on the RS that are not on the ST170 make the RS the higher spec ? If you asked a petrolhead whether they would like top of the line after market parts on their car as standard, or some different headlights and heater controls, I am pretty sure what the answer would be
Things I know as pay for options on the ST170, but are standard on the RS, are metallic paint, the wing on the back, and leather interior.
I know we all stick up for the car we drive, but believe me, the RS is on another planet compared to the ST170..... If you believe the ST170 is the higher spec, you need help
If you want to talk about ST170's with bits bolted on, then we need to talk about RS's with bits bolted on as well, which will again take the RS to a higher level.
Edited by :J: on Friday 8th February 15:54
If you took the time to read exactly what I said properly, then you would see that a used ST170 with a turbo conversion will be less than a used RS. Spec a GT28 for that conversion and you're looking at a healthy 300BHP.
As for the higher spec, then yes I'm talking about additional refinements that the ST170 has over the RS, heated windscreen comes to mind straight away, though I do admit how gutted I was not to have a "Start" button (chavtastic, well it is now anyway).
The engines are not the same. ST170 has higher compression, Dual Stage Inlet Manifold and VVT on the inlet cam.
Sure the RS is a great car, but I couldn't live with the awful interior, but each to their own.
Edit: Oh and they are NOT Duratec engines !
As for the higher spec, then yes I'm talking about additional refinements that the ST170 has over the RS, heated windscreen comes to mind straight away, though I do admit how gutted I was not to have a "Start" button (chavtastic, well it is now anyway).
The engines are not the same. ST170 has higher compression, Dual Stage Inlet Manifold and VVT on the inlet cam.
Sure the RS is a great car, but I couldn't live with the awful interior, but each to their own.
Edit: Oh and they are NOT Duratec engines !
Edited by Evilbat on Friday 8th February 18:45
Evilbat said:
BUT....if you turbo an ST170 with the difference in price between the two on the second hand market, you'll have a car that will muller an RS and have a higher specification.
My ST170 almost fully loaded was £16500 in Jan 04, as opposed to a used RS at £18000 without the "toys".
My ST170 almost fully loaded was £16500 in Jan 04, as opposed to a used RS at £18000 without the "toys".
Evilbat said:
If you took the time to read exactly what I said properly, then you would see that a used ST170 with a turbo conversion will be less than a used RS. Spec a GT28 for that conversion and you're looking at a healthy 300BHP.
Oh yeah, after reading it properly, you clearly said a used ST170 with a turbo conversion will be less than a used RS. Silly me...... oh hang on, you did't say that at all You said if you turbo the ST with the difference in price, which to me means using the money you saved from not buying the RS to turbo the ST ?Pick on the interior and start button eh...YAAAAWWWWNNN.... been there, heard that and RS envy is an ugly thing
An ST170 is the Ford Hot Hatch equivalent of grandads slippers, so I would rather take my interior and start button any day What with sticking a turbo on their car being the modification at the top of the list for almost any boy racer/chav, I would be very careful about throwing stones in glass houses. You have taken an XR3i equivalent, stuck a turbo on it and you have the balls to call a starter button 'chavtastic'
Anybody who knows a 'drivers' car, would soon forgive the intrior once they start driving it. Plus, you are hardly staring at your own seats when you are driving it, lol....
Have I ever missed the heated screen since I sold my ST170, nope, not ever, it clears just as quickly with the normal blowers. The Xenons, I miss those loads, but hey, look what I get in return
At least I have owned both cars, so when I say the ST170 is just plain boring compared to the RS, I am speaking from experience. Fair enough, it's my opinion, but one based on experience.
Edited by :J: on Sunday 10th February 14:57
Thanks for your opinions guys, wasn't quite expecting a slanging match though :-)
I've long had arguments over this image issue with the RS, coming from a noble, RS6 background my friends can hardly believe my interest in the RS. Admittedly the blue centre stripe on the steering wheel isn't my thing but you can't get away from the fact its a hell of alot of car for 12K.
There is a big following of middle aged men for the RS. I see it all the time. People who could obviously afford more expensive trash.
finding the right example from the right owner is going to be the difficult part.
cheers guys
I've long had arguments over this image issue with the RS, coming from a noble, RS6 background my friends can hardly believe my interest in the RS. Admittedly the blue centre stripe on the steering wheel isn't my thing but you can't get away from the fact its a hell of alot of car for 12K.
There is a big following of middle aged men for the RS. I see it all the time. People who could obviously afford more expensive trash.
finding the right example from the right owner is going to be the difficult part.
cheers guys
:J said:
Pick on the interior and start button eh...YAAAAWWWWNNN.... been there, heard that and RS envy is an ugly thing
Except I have never been envious of the RS or anyone who owns one. But thank you for making that assumption ! :J said:
You have taken an XR3i equivalent, stuck a turbo on it and you have the balls to call a starter button 'chavtastic'
Yet another assumption !!:J said:
Anybody who knows a 'drivers' car, would soon forgive the intrior once they start driving it.
Having taken an ex RS owning racing driver out in mine he summed it up in one word....awesome (BTW he competed in the GT series last season driving a DB9RS).But as you say, each to their own
Play nicely peoples!
The RS and ST170 are very different cars aimed at different markets.
Evilbat I dont believe modifications were something that the OP was bringing into the equation, the modifications you have done to your ST170 are well documented but they are just that modifications.
If an RS owner was to chuck the same money at their car that you have put into yours ( I dont know £5-7k over book perhaps) they will be "mullering" yours or a ST170 turbo variant if you wish to use that argument.
In answer to the OP's question, wether you are getting twice the car is a matter of some debate as the previous posts have demonstrated.
Value wise a good condition FRS will probably command double the price of a good condition comparable mileage and age ST170.
Spec wise the RS wont come close, luxuries are few and far between on the RS with electric windows aircon and ABS being the only real things that may count as luxury, the car did not have any options available from the factory either so all cars unless modified by their owners will be exactly the same spec (give or take a couple of minor alterations carried out by Ford during the production run).
The ST as mentioned was mass produced and they are to be perfectly honest ten a penny on the roads, the RS with a run of 4501 world wide is a much rare entity and as such tends to draw the looks a LOT more.
If you are looking for good well looked after RS's you would be well advised to peruse the Cars for sale section of the RSOC website: http://www.rsownersclub.co.uk/rsocbb/forumdisplay....
If you are looking to spend £12k your options may be a little limited but there are some superb examples on the market on there
Hope this helps
Rich
The RS and ST170 are very different cars aimed at different markets.
Evilbat I dont believe modifications were something that the OP was bringing into the equation, the modifications you have done to your ST170 are well documented but they are just that modifications.
If an RS owner was to chuck the same money at their car that you have put into yours ( I dont know £5-7k over book perhaps) they will be "mullering" yours or a ST170 turbo variant if you wish to use that argument.
In answer to the OP's question, wether you are getting twice the car is a matter of some debate as the previous posts have demonstrated.
Value wise a good condition FRS will probably command double the price of a good condition comparable mileage and age ST170.
Spec wise the RS wont come close, luxuries are few and far between on the RS with electric windows aircon and ABS being the only real things that may count as luxury, the car did not have any options available from the factory either so all cars unless modified by their owners will be exactly the same spec (give or take a couple of minor alterations carried out by Ford during the production run).
The ST as mentioned was mass produced and they are to be perfectly honest ten a penny on the roads, the RS with a run of 4501 world wide is a much rare entity and as such tends to draw the looks a LOT more.
If you are looking for good well looked after RS's you would be well advised to peruse the Cars for sale section of the RSOC website: http://www.rsownersclub.co.uk/rsocbb/forumdisplay....
If you are looking to spend £12k your options may be a little limited but there are some superb examples on the market on there
Hope this helps
Rich
Hi Rich
I know that the original OP didn't mention anything about modifications, I was just showing that for an initial outlay a used ST170 and then adding FI would(or should) still give change compared to the cost of an older used RS.
You know how much I appreciate what the RS is about, especially after our Sunday morning jaunt to Crail, but it never was going to be the car for me.
Think we'll have to do that trip again this year.
I know that the original OP didn't mention anything about modifications, I was just showing that for an initial outlay a used ST170 and then adding FI would(or should) still give change compared to the cost of an older used RS.
You know how much I appreciate what the RS is about, especially after our Sunday morning jaunt to Crail, but it never was going to be the car for me.
Think we'll have to do that trip again this year.
The Focus RS is much more of a bespoke car all round. Is it a better car...? Depends on what you want it for I guess. Is it worth more...? Like-for-like yes it is. A lot more.
Give it a few years and the FRS will see Cosworth levels of appreciation, no doubt. The ST170 will never attain this status.
The following is from Wikipedia :
"...The Focus RS was a far more bespoke car than the SVT/ST170 with seventy percent of the components being unique, revised or uprated from the standard Focus. Mechanically, most notably, the car incorporated a Quaife automatic torque biasing differential to improve traction from the front wheel drive setup. It was this differential that gave the car its largely undeserved reputation for extreme torque steer.
The suspension is 25mm lower than the standard model with custom Sachs dampers. The steering used the same quicker ratio rack as the ST170 while the brakes used fixed calliper four piston Brembo units with 325mm discs up front and single piston callipers and 280mm discs at the back. Wheels were 18" alloys specially developed by OZ Racing. The engine was heavily modified with forged aluminium pistons, forged connecting rods, hardened valve seats, sodium-filled exhaust valves and a stainless steel exhaust system.
The forced induction system comprised a Garret turbocharger in conjunction with a water-cooled charge air cooler and an electric water pump. To transmit the higher torque was an AP Racing clutch. Styling wise, the car featured unique front and rear bumper assemblies required for the wider wheel arches which accommodated the 65mm wider front track.
Internally the theme is blue and black with sections of blue leather trim on the door trim panels, the steering wheel and the Sparco seats which were trimmed in blue/black leather and Alcantara. The instruments have a blue background and in place of the coolant temperature gauge, the RS was equipped with a boost pressure indicator (up to 1,5 bar). The gear lever knob, handbrake lever and pedals were all custom made by Sparco.
The Ford Focus RS was manufactured on its own production line at Ford's Saarlouis plant in Germany. Production started on 2 October 2002 and ended on 11 November 2003 when the final vehicle, number 4501 of a limited worldwide production run of 4500, rolled off the line. The Focus RS was sold in 21 countries across Europe but by far the largest number, 2147, were sold in the Great Britain. Ford Motor Company - Press Release It is estimated that Ford lost £7000.00 on every car sold at its £19750.00 British price tag..."
Quite a special car indeed considering it's from a mass player like Ford.
Give it a few years and the FRS will see Cosworth levels of appreciation, no doubt. The ST170 will never attain this status.
The following is from Wikipedia :
"...The Focus RS was a far more bespoke car than the SVT/ST170 with seventy percent of the components being unique, revised or uprated from the standard Focus. Mechanically, most notably, the car incorporated a Quaife automatic torque biasing differential to improve traction from the front wheel drive setup. It was this differential that gave the car its largely undeserved reputation for extreme torque steer.
The suspension is 25mm lower than the standard model with custom Sachs dampers. The steering used the same quicker ratio rack as the ST170 while the brakes used fixed calliper four piston Brembo units with 325mm discs up front and single piston callipers and 280mm discs at the back. Wheels were 18" alloys specially developed by OZ Racing. The engine was heavily modified with forged aluminium pistons, forged connecting rods, hardened valve seats, sodium-filled exhaust valves and a stainless steel exhaust system.
The forced induction system comprised a Garret turbocharger in conjunction with a water-cooled charge air cooler and an electric water pump. To transmit the higher torque was an AP Racing clutch. Styling wise, the car featured unique front and rear bumper assemblies required for the wider wheel arches which accommodated the 65mm wider front track.
Internally the theme is blue and black with sections of blue leather trim on the door trim panels, the steering wheel and the Sparco seats which were trimmed in blue/black leather and Alcantara. The instruments have a blue background and in place of the coolant temperature gauge, the RS was equipped with a boost pressure indicator (up to 1,5 bar). The gear lever knob, handbrake lever and pedals were all custom made by Sparco.
The Ford Focus RS was manufactured on its own production line at Ford's Saarlouis plant in Germany. Production started on 2 October 2002 and ended on 11 November 2003 when the final vehicle, number 4501 of a limited worldwide production run of 4500, rolled off the line. The Focus RS was sold in 21 countries across Europe but by far the largest number, 2147, were sold in the Great Britain. Ford Motor Company - Press Release It is estimated that Ford lost £7000.00 on every car sold at its £19750.00 British price tag..."
Quite a special car indeed considering it's from a mass player like Ford.
"with seventy percent of the components being unique, revised or uprated from the standard Focus"
Debate aside - There is you answer.
They are essentially different cars.
Years ago I looked at a 170 and found it was sluggish in corners and gutless in a straight line. I bought a 172 Clio instead at the time.
I've now had an RS for two years and have no plans to change it anytime soon.
Debate aside - There is you answer.
They are essentially different cars.
Years ago I looked at a 170 and found it was sluggish in corners and gutless in a straight line. I bought a 172 Clio instead at the time.
I've now had an RS for two years and have no plans to change it anytime soon.
noble3r said:
I've long had arguments over this image issue with the RS, coming from a noble, RS6 background my friends can hardly believe my interest in the RS.
My dad has a noble and its an amazing carI have an RS and its a brilliant car, considered an ST170 after my fiesta ST, but was no gain in it and my heart won and I got the RS
Take one for a drive you won't be disappointed, its a drivers car like the noble just a little less hardcore and a little more practical
Plus from seeing my dads noble costs a lot less as well
AMST09 said:
noble3r said:
I've long had arguments over this image issue with the RS, coming from a noble, RS6 background my friends can hardly believe my interest in the RS.
My dad has a noble and its an amazing carI have an RS and its a brilliant car, considered an ST170 after my fiesta ST, but was no gain in it and my heart won and I got the RS
Take one for a drive you won't be disappointed, its a drivers car like the noble just a little less hardcore and a little more practical
Plus from seeing my dads noble costs a lot less as well
jack_st said:
AMST09 said:
noble3r said:
I've long had arguments over this image issue with the RS, coming from a noble, RS6 background my friends can hardly believe my interest in the RS.
My dad has a noble and its an amazing carI have an RS and its a brilliant car, considered an ST170 after my fiesta ST, but was no gain in it and my heart won and I got the RS
Take one for a drive you won't be disappointed, its a drivers car like the noble just a little less hardcore and a little more practical
Plus from seeing my dads noble costs a lot less as well
For me... the ST would never get a look in.
I loved my Focus alot (#0435), I do regret getting rid of it, but I had to satisfy my Elise itch.
The Focus RS is a quality piece of kit. I do love my hot hatches, and for me, it is by far the best. Yes it has its faults, and Fords can be a pain in the A when it comes to servicing/getting parts, but there is a whole little community of guys (on rsowners) who would help you out at a drop of a hat.
I will get one again...
I loved my Focus alot (#0435), I do regret getting rid of it, but I had to satisfy my Elise itch.
The Focus RS is a quality piece of kit. I do love my hot hatches, and for me, it is by far the best. Yes it has its faults, and Fords can be a pain in the A when it comes to servicing/getting parts, but there is a whole little community of guys (on rsowners) who would help you out at a drop of a hat.
I will get one again...
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