Mondeo ST220 Beware what your are buying!!
Discussion
Im am a self employed mechanic with over 15 years experience. I have worked for a number of main agents including Ford and currently specialise in alternative fuels such as LPG and Bio Diesel.
Through out my carrer i have had some real tuff jobs and really pulled out the stops as it were to get a customers car back ontime and in tip top order.
Of all the jobs i have done, this one has been by far the worst, so i thought i would share it with you and hopefully i will feel a bit better.
I was introduced to a nice couple through a friend. They had saved £7000 to buy a new car and the husband liked the look of the Mondeo ST220.
They looked at one together and liked it, they took along a mechanic who helped them get £1500 off of the purchase cost because it had had no service history since 2005. The oil was low and gungy he reported.
The couple bought the car for the reduced amount or close to it and with the spare cash they had left over asked me to service it and convert it to run on Lpg.
The car looks in tip top order from outside, the interior is in A1 condition bar a little ware on the gear knob. The clocks read 55K and dont apear to have been removed and clocked. The car is a 52 reg and passed the HPI check with a clean bill of health.
The engine looked clean except for an oil leak from the power steering pump and one from the sump area.
Further investigation revealed the oil to be coming from the main crank seal behind the flywheel. After removing the gearbox it was evident that this leak had been happening for some time.
The seal was replaced as was the rather messy and worn clutch.
The service revealed the usual worn aux belt tensioner which was duly changed but also a heli coiled sump drain bolt. The oil was indeed thick gunge.
After the service my attention was drawn to very slight miss fire on idle, just like one that comes when the leads are starting to brake down or the coil pack is getting a bit tired. I advised the customer that this would need doing soon when the budget allowed.
The car was promptly converted to run on Lpg and apart from the slight miss at idle on petrol looked like everything the customer had been after.
The Lpg systems i fit have a data logging function that stores the habits of the driver(s) and allows me to set a suitable map for their driving style. This gives customers exactly what they want with out them having to think about it and relay there feelings to me.
I agreed to pick up the car from the customer after 250ish miles and also investigate an unknown rattle that comes and goes.
I collected the car and upon starting heard one metalic tap, a brief look and listen under the bonnet gave no clue. I pulled off of the drive and drove down the road.
After 200 yards as i took a left turn the engine seized bring me to an abrupt hault.
The car was recovered to my workshop and stripped for assesment. I was aware that in the time between my customer buying this car and it seizing the car had covered no more than 700 miles.
Stripping of the engine revealed excessive ware to two main shell sets and three con rod shell sets, one of which was the cause of the seizure.
The oil removed was very dirty indeed and not what i expected to find from a car that had only covered 250ish miles on it.
Further inspection revealed fresh hone marks on the bore linings, clean silver areas on the head combustion areas, new looking head gaskets and a new water pump.
It was obvious that this engine had been rebuilt and the history left out, the thing is was it a good rebuild that was passed onto the previous keeper and he was the cause of its failing through neglect or did it blow on him and he had it badly fixed and sold it to my customer.
The fact is we will never know unless we meet the engine builder by chance, he recognises the car and spills the beans or the reg is on a computer system somewhere. Ive tried all of my local dealers and Ford main agents to no avail.
Any idears anyone?
At this point after discussions with the customer we decided to investigate either repairing the engine, sourcing a replacement or calling it a day.
A new engine from Ford was out of the question costing well over £3k plus fitting and vat.
Through an old friend at Ford i learnt of a liquidator that was selling a number of new Ford engines amungst other items. One of these was an St220 engine in a crate for £1180 plus the dreaded.
Considering a head from Ford for the ST220 will cost £980 plus vat this seemed the best option.
My customer had managed to pool £1500 together as a rescue fund which was just enough to purchase the engine and cover fluids, travel etc.
It was an easy choice for me to make to help the customer by fitting the engine knowing there was no budget for my time, however i was not prepared for the toll this job has taken upon my family, my girlfriend and even the customers family and co-workers.
Its been one disaster after another, firstly the engine comes assembled from Ford but with no upper engine mount that should bolt to the block between the V of the two banks.
Except you have to take one of the heads off to fit it!! How dumb is that! What a waist of time and gaskets.
Next, on the old engine i noticed the timing rota is a toothed disk located on the crank behined the front cover. It mounts in more than one setting.
However i had no fear, my engine was direct from Ford so it must be right, Wrong! engine wouldnt run and caused me loads of hassle. You guessed it, take it back out, remove all of the front assembly and change the position of the rota. Yet more wasted gaskets! This is either a dumb incorrect build at the factory or a revision that no one was told about because i couldnt find reference to it and nor could Ford.
Just incase it was a build mistake i double checked every bolt on the engine.
Oh and as for Ford, i broke a lamda sensor putting the motor back in, they cost £118 plus vat each so watch out for them. I had to pay for this up front only to find out they sent me the wrong one, not once but Twice!!
With the motor finally in the car and running im addressing the usual items such as posible leaks, temps etc.
The first test run of 10 miles followed by a second of 20 goes well with no problems and i report the good news to the customer.
My only concern at this point is the slight miss fire on idle as after so much work im loathed to give it back to the customer in less than 100% condition.
Fords FDS system and my scanner show no faults yet my gut feeling says coil pack and leads.
A swap with a friends MAF confirms that this one is ok, unfortunatly his coil pack was not the same so the bullet is going to have to be bitten again and new pack and leads purchased.
I bare this burden while writing this, waiting for morning to come so that i can ring the customer and tell him he wont be having his car back today because it needs more parts, yet again.
And just to put the boot in literally on the way back from the last test run this evening the drivers side cv boot has come off and thrown grease all over the alternator which in turn is setting off the red dash warning light.
More hassle!! or just teathing problems, to be truthful these are little teathing problems that happen when you do major work like this its just very very frustrating.
This brings me to the morel or the bit that helps you the reader:
If your the owner of a car and plan to sell it to someone some day, do the right thing and service it properly!
If your going to buy a car and it hasnt got history and the oils old and thick, walk away or at least get a good reduction and involve a mechanic in the sale who knows his stuff, you might just need him.
If you have bought a car thats gone wrong all is not lost, you can repair it for about 1/4 of what the main dealers charge if your prepared to be patient and shop about for bits.
I read a post about a guy who had no toys left in his pram while doing the same job i have done and boy do i know what he ment.
I have saved my customer a few thousand quid for sure but its put an intollerable amount of stress on my business and family.
Due to the time taken to source parts and carry out the job the customer and his family have suffered.
And finally its strained my relationship with the customer to the limit, this car is an absolute swine but im sure its worth it in the end once everything is put right.
The Mondeo is a lovely car, smooth, refined, spacious, powerful, good looking, a bit juicy but it is a 3 litre.
But if you neglect this beast or buy one thats been neglected it will cost you dearly, you have been warned.
Will add progress and updates as we go plus some photos if i can.
Regards Andy
Through out my carrer i have had some real tuff jobs and really pulled out the stops as it were to get a customers car back ontime and in tip top order.
Of all the jobs i have done, this one has been by far the worst, so i thought i would share it with you and hopefully i will feel a bit better.
I was introduced to a nice couple through a friend. They had saved £7000 to buy a new car and the husband liked the look of the Mondeo ST220.
They looked at one together and liked it, they took along a mechanic who helped them get £1500 off of the purchase cost because it had had no service history since 2005. The oil was low and gungy he reported.
The couple bought the car for the reduced amount or close to it and with the spare cash they had left over asked me to service it and convert it to run on Lpg.
The car looks in tip top order from outside, the interior is in A1 condition bar a little ware on the gear knob. The clocks read 55K and dont apear to have been removed and clocked. The car is a 52 reg and passed the HPI check with a clean bill of health.
The engine looked clean except for an oil leak from the power steering pump and one from the sump area.
Further investigation revealed the oil to be coming from the main crank seal behind the flywheel. After removing the gearbox it was evident that this leak had been happening for some time.
The seal was replaced as was the rather messy and worn clutch.
The service revealed the usual worn aux belt tensioner which was duly changed but also a heli coiled sump drain bolt. The oil was indeed thick gunge.
After the service my attention was drawn to very slight miss fire on idle, just like one that comes when the leads are starting to brake down or the coil pack is getting a bit tired. I advised the customer that this would need doing soon when the budget allowed.
The car was promptly converted to run on Lpg and apart from the slight miss at idle on petrol looked like everything the customer had been after.
The Lpg systems i fit have a data logging function that stores the habits of the driver(s) and allows me to set a suitable map for their driving style. This gives customers exactly what they want with out them having to think about it and relay there feelings to me.
I agreed to pick up the car from the customer after 250ish miles and also investigate an unknown rattle that comes and goes.
I collected the car and upon starting heard one metalic tap, a brief look and listen under the bonnet gave no clue. I pulled off of the drive and drove down the road.
After 200 yards as i took a left turn the engine seized bring me to an abrupt hault.
The car was recovered to my workshop and stripped for assesment. I was aware that in the time between my customer buying this car and it seizing the car had covered no more than 700 miles.
Stripping of the engine revealed excessive ware to two main shell sets and three con rod shell sets, one of which was the cause of the seizure.
The oil removed was very dirty indeed and not what i expected to find from a car that had only covered 250ish miles on it.
Further inspection revealed fresh hone marks on the bore linings, clean silver areas on the head combustion areas, new looking head gaskets and a new water pump.
It was obvious that this engine had been rebuilt and the history left out, the thing is was it a good rebuild that was passed onto the previous keeper and he was the cause of its failing through neglect or did it blow on him and he had it badly fixed and sold it to my customer.
The fact is we will never know unless we meet the engine builder by chance, he recognises the car and spills the beans or the reg is on a computer system somewhere. Ive tried all of my local dealers and Ford main agents to no avail.
Any idears anyone?
At this point after discussions with the customer we decided to investigate either repairing the engine, sourcing a replacement or calling it a day.
A new engine from Ford was out of the question costing well over £3k plus fitting and vat.
Through an old friend at Ford i learnt of a liquidator that was selling a number of new Ford engines amungst other items. One of these was an St220 engine in a crate for £1180 plus the dreaded.
Considering a head from Ford for the ST220 will cost £980 plus vat this seemed the best option.
My customer had managed to pool £1500 together as a rescue fund which was just enough to purchase the engine and cover fluids, travel etc.
It was an easy choice for me to make to help the customer by fitting the engine knowing there was no budget for my time, however i was not prepared for the toll this job has taken upon my family, my girlfriend and even the customers family and co-workers.
Its been one disaster after another, firstly the engine comes assembled from Ford but with no upper engine mount that should bolt to the block between the V of the two banks.
Except you have to take one of the heads off to fit it!! How dumb is that! What a waist of time and gaskets.
Next, on the old engine i noticed the timing rota is a toothed disk located on the crank behined the front cover. It mounts in more than one setting.
However i had no fear, my engine was direct from Ford so it must be right, Wrong! engine wouldnt run and caused me loads of hassle. You guessed it, take it back out, remove all of the front assembly and change the position of the rota. Yet more wasted gaskets! This is either a dumb incorrect build at the factory or a revision that no one was told about because i couldnt find reference to it and nor could Ford.
Just incase it was a build mistake i double checked every bolt on the engine.
Oh and as for Ford, i broke a lamda sensor putting the motor back in, they cost £118 plus vat each so watch out for them. I had to pay for this up front only to find out they sent me the wrong one, not once but Twice!!
With the motor finally in the car and running im addressing the usual items such as posible leaks, temps etc.
The first test run of 10 miles followed by a second of 20 goes well with no problems and i report the good news to the customer.
My only concern at this point is the slight miss fire on idle as after so much work im loathed to give it back to the customer in less than 100% condition.
Fords FDS system and my scanner show no faults yet my gut feeling says coil pack and leads.
A swap with a friends MAF confirms that this one is ok, unfortunatly his coil pack was not the same so the bullet is going to have to be bitten again and new pack and leads purchased.
I bare this burden while writing this, waiting for morning to come so that i can ring the customer and tell him he wont be having his car back today because it needs more parts, yet again.
And just to put the boot in literally on the way back from the last test run this evening the drivers side cv boot has come off and thrown grease all over the alternator which in turn is setting off the red dash warning light.
More hassle!! or just teathing problems, to be truthful these are little teathing problems that happen when you do major work like this its just very very frustrating.
This brings me to the morel or the bit that helps you the reader:
If your the owner of a car and plan to sell it to someone some day, do the right thing and service it properly!
If your going to buy a car and it hasnt got history and the oils old and thick, walk away or at least get a good reduction and involve a mechanic in the sale who knows his stuff, you might just need him.
If you have bought a car thats gone wrong all is not lost, you can repair it for about 1/4 of what the main dealers charge if your prepared to be patient and shop about for bits.
I read a post about a guy who had no toys left in his pram while doing the same job i have done and boy do i know what he ment.
I have saved my customer a few thousand quid for sure but its put an intollerable amount of stress on my business and family.
Due to the time taken to source parts and carry out the job the customer and his family have suffered.
And finally its strained my relationship with the customer to the limit, this car is an absolute swine but im sure its worth it in the end once everything is put right.
The Mondeo is a lovely car, smooth, refined, spacious, powerful, good looking, a bit juicy but it is a 3 litre.
But if you neglect this beast or buy one thats been neglected it will cost you dearly, you have been warned.
Will add progress and updates as we go plus some photos if i can.
Regards Andy
I fail to see how inadequate previous servicing on a specific car means they are all bad.
Added to which, they bought the car knowing it was missing service history and used a mechanic who haggled money off as a result.
This sounds like caveat emptor to me.
Added to which, they bought the car knowing it was missing service history and used a mechanic who haggled money off as a result.
This sounds like caveat emptor to me.
Edited by Podie on Thursday 27th March 10:46
Futher to my last post i thought i would let you all know whats happened to the Mondeo this week.
Well first i attended to the grease from the CV joint that was sprayed on the alternator, upon examination there did not apear to be much grease inside.
I cleaned it anyway only to find that the light came back on, only this time i noticed the clock lights pulsing.
Stripped out the loom from the alternator to the battery and made good conections and added an engine earth. Problem solved so far.
I noticed from posts in another forum that this is a common problem and in fact there is a replacement loom section available to cure this fault. Will get one if problem persists.
No wall that remains is to sort the slight miss fire, so with loom on the brain i stripped out the injector loom, tps loom, and some other sections that looked moody.
Yipee i thought when i found oil in one of the loom plugs by the power steering resovior. These go to the injectors etc. So i cleaned and checked the whole lot and fitted new injectors for good measure.
She started first time and sounded perfect until she came off choke, still missing.
With a new engine, new injectors, new crank and cam sensor, new coil and leads, new plugs, im begining to freak out.
This miss is evident if you put your hand on the rear rocker cover and you can feel it shake slightly or listen to the exhaust pipe and you can hear it pop.
Has anyone had this problem? Can anyone help?
Am going to run it into ford agian tomorrow to have the Lamdas and ecm checked.
Regards Andy
Well first i attended to the grease from the CV joint that was sprayed on the alternator, upon examination there did not apear to be much grease inside.
I cleaned it anyway only to find that the light came back on, only this time i noticed the clock lights pulsing.
Stripped out the loom from the alternator to the battery and made good conections and added an engine earth. Problem solved so far.
I noticed from posts in another forum that this is a common problem and in fact there is a replacement loom section available to cure this fault. Will get one if problem persists.
No wall that remains is to sort the slight miss fire, so with loom on the brain i stripped out the injector loom, tps loom, and some other sections that looked moody.
Yipee i thought when i found oil in one of the loom plugs by the power steering resovior. These go to the injectors etc. So i cleaned and checked the whole lot and fitted new injectors for good measure.
She started first time and sounded perfect until she came off choke, still missing.
With a new engine, new injectors, new crank and cam sensor, new coil and leads, new plugs, im begining to freak out.
This miss is evident if you put your hand on the rear rocker cover and you can feel it shake slightly or listen to the exhaust pipe and you can hear it pop.
Has anyone had this problem? Can anyone help?
Am going to run it into ford agian tomorrow to have the Lamdas and ecm checked.
Regards Andy
With regards to the coments from Podie, yes your right for sure, but every now and then a model of car comes along that has the potential to bankrupt you if you buy the wrong one.
I have seen a number of posts now about these V6 engines spinning shell bearings and going bang. To common for my liking.
So i take back what i said about the mondeo in general and focus upon the V6 ST220.
However my landlord is already on his third engine in his 06 Mondeo ST Turbo Diesel after in hydrolic locked, then Ford broke the second one finally before getting it right with a third.
Like i said Know what you buying.
I have seen a number of posts now about these V6 engines spinning shell bearings and going bang. To common for my liking.
So i take back what i said about the mondeo in general and focus upon the V6 ST220.
However my landlord is already on his third engine in his 06 Mondeo ST Turbo Diesel after in hydrolic locked, then Ford broke the second one finally before getting it right with a third.
Like i said Know what you buying.
Well, the car has now spent two days at another Ford dealer to see they can find the source of the miss fire.
They performed all the usual ECU checks and vac tests plus had two senior tecs look at it, and there still no solution.
I gave up and agreed to take it back when they surgested the only check left is a compresion test.
I didnt see this was nessasary as the engine has only done 50 miles from new.
I will pull it into the workshop over the weekend and strip it down again.
I have new plenum gaskets and another set of plugs to see if this solves it.
Im looking for 4 lamda sensors to play with and going to investigate the rear cat as the miss seems to come from the rear more.
As well as this i will pull out the rest of the loom and look for bad connections etc before dong yet another leak test.
Im go to see if can find someone who is breaking an st220 to doner parts from to test components like the ecu and other sensors because the cost of this is getting stupid.
On cost i think we are running close to 1800 which on reflection isnt bad compared to 5K from Ford.
Will keep you all updated.
Regards Andy
They performed all the usual ECU checks and vac tests plus had two senior tecs look at it, and there still no solution.
I gave up and agreed to take it back when they surgested the only check left is a compresion test.
I didnt see this was nessasary as the engine has only done 50 miles from new.
I will pull it into the workshop over the weekend and strip it down again.
I have new plenum gaskets and another set of plugs to see if this solves it.
Im looking for 4 lamda sensors to play with and going to investigate the rear cat as the miss seems to come from the rear more.
As well as this i will pull out the rest of the loom and look for bad connections etc before dong yet another leak test.
Im go to see if can find someone who is breaking an st220 to doner parts from to test components like the ecu and other sensors because the cost of this is getting stupid.
On cost i think we are running close to 1800 which on reflection isnt bad compared to 5K from Ford.
Will keep you all updated.
Regards Andy
Beware of Ford engines that appear in crates-my old 2.5V6 popped it's head gasket, it was looking like a s/h was the cheapest fix then along came a shiny Ford V6 in a crate for £800. I got it and then paid to have it fitted. The crank had seen water and had rusted a groove in it, here are the pics :-
I then thought i was doomed but found this little device from the USA :-
& it's been fine ever since. The 2.5's are renowned for spun bearings, 3L i've not heard of. Question is-why buy a car that had obvious signs of neglect? Sludgy oil on a 3L V6 is always going to end in big bills........
I then thought i was doomed but found this little device from the USA :-
& it's been fine ever since. The 2.5's are renowned for spun bearings, 3L i've not heard of. Question is-why buy a car that had obvious signs of neglect? Sludgy oil on a 3L V6 is always going to end in big bills........
To be honest, sludgy oil on any modern engine is rather asking for trouble, the Ford V6s aren't special in this respect. The hydraulic cam followers and fine oilways need modern thin synthetics to work properly.
A mate of mine bought a <1 year old Focus 1.8 TD from a Ford main dealer, and had various problems with it from day 1. He had the first service done early, then it came time for it's second service. He rolled up to pick it up after work, whereupon the bimbo behind the desk said "it hasn't been done, doesn't need doing for a few months". Then he pointed out it was being done on the basis of miles rather than months. Anyway, looking at the service details, it seems absolutely bugger all had been done since the day it was made, despite the main dealer having taken his money. 20,000 miles on the same oil in a TD engine isn't really the best. Maybe, just maybe this has happened to the ST220?
A mate of mine bought a <1 year old Focus 1.8 TD from a Ford main dealer, and had various problems with it from day 1. He had the first service done early, then it came time for it's second service. He rolled up to pick it up after work, whereupon the bimbo behind the desk said "it hasn't been done, doesn't need doing for a few months". Then he pointed out it was being done on the basis of miles rather than months. Anyway, looking at the service details, it seems absolutely bugger all had been done since the day it was made, despite the main dealer having taken his money. 20,000 miles on the same oil in a TD engine isn't really the best. Maybe, just maybe this has happened to the ST220?
Thanks for the input, i checked the engine over completely before buying it, its totally genuine and in perfect condition. Even checked it out with Ford.
Trouble is even after another trip back to Ford we still cant get it to run right.
Its had all the sensors bar the mass air changed and replaced. Most were new on the new engine and even these have been swapped for replacement parts in an attempt to iliminate this miss fire.
She fine on choke but as soon as its off choke it starts to miss slightly on the back bank.
Am going through the loom again and going to attack the cats next to see if the back one is blocked as its getting rather hot in a short space of time.
Both the Ford dealers its been to say yes there is a problem but they can diagnose it, im going mad
Anyone had a problem like this?
Regards Andy
Trouble is even after another trip back to Ford we still cant get it to run right.
Its had all the sensors bar the mass air changed and replaced. Most were new on the new engine and even these have been swapped for replacement parts in an attempt to iliminate this miss fire.
She fine on choke but as soon as its off choke it starts to miss slightly on the back bank.
Am going through the loom again and going to attack the cats next to see if the back one is blocked as its getting rather hot in a short space of time.
Both the Ford dealers its been to say yes there is a problem but they can diagnose it, im going mad
Anyone had a problem like this?
Regards Andy
So, the rear bank is missing, and the rear pre-cat is overheating. Could it be that one of the new injectors is sticking open and overfuelling? I know they are new, but it's still possible. Equally, maybe the new ECU is somehow holding an injector open too long. Check the colour of the plugs?
hi, i was wondering if you have solved the mystery with your car, as i am having exactly the same problems! i have tried changing coilpack and leads and plugs,but it's still playing up. after ten mins of driving,it starts making a strange noise, like it is bubbling, and can only drive it up to 2000 revs, then it cuts out. it then takes five minutes to restart, also in between i can hear popping noise,that i think is coming from the exhaust. i have also had cat com looked at,but no problems there.the car has been on the diagnostic machine several times,but no problems came up.i have also had the car running for three hours at a standstill and again no problems,then within ten minutes of driving, the car comes to a hault.i have also had the ecu checked, but again no problems. please help as i'm running out of options,money and losing heart in the car i have always wanted. please email me at kelligauci@hotmail.com if you have any ideas, and if i find a solution in the meantime, i will email you. thank you. kelli
Maybe the water pump has shed one or more of it's impellers and the water is boiling around the liners? I know the old 2.5 were prone to water pump impeller problems, but that usually involves the temperature needle going off the gauge. Maybe also an air lock in the radiator? Under idle not much water would be going through there anyway, but when you run it on the road it will need to pass much more water and with an air lock it may well just refuse to work.
Hi, I will be going to see an st220 tomorrow with a view to buying it, your post does not feel me with much confidence, however the seller has told me that it has covered 41k with full main dealers service history and he has been the only owner, after all you have been through what would i need to look for? and is it worth buying as you have had nothing but trouble? Thanks for your advice in advance. Pete
pukkapete said:
Hi, I will be going to see an st220 tomorrow with a view to buying it, your post does not feel me with much confidence, however the seller has told me that it has covered 41k with full main dealers service history and he has been the only owner, after all you have been through what would i need to look for? and is it worth buying as you have had nothing but trouble? Thanks for your advice in advance. Pete
One car does not mean it is the same for all models. Mine has ticket over 73,000 and is still going strong. There are plenty of happy ST220 owners. Regular, proper, servicing is the key. A regular oil change won't hurt.
As with any car - buy on condition.
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