Ford KA - Brake upgrade/conversion
Discussion
Hi all,
I bought a MY2000 KA Collection, as the daily hack/shopping car. It will serve as to allow me to save money on insurance/running hopefully - so I can get something nicer next year etc. I look like a t
t, but i've been smiling an awful lot whilst driving it, so that has been exaggerated somewhat. It had 12 Months MOT and 6 Months Tax. However needs a wheel bearing, I judge it to have excessive play and don't know how it passed its MOT? The sills have been neatly welded, and the whole chassis undersealed a couple of years ago, when the sills were done apparently. Despite this it still looks rough, with bad paint touch ups etc. Who cares though, its a £500 Ford KA.
So, I know the plan is basically to keep speed through corners etc, otherwise it won't make much progress. However, when I do need to brake, I feel almost as though I could do better by putting my hands out of the window, as an air brake; they're shocking, and don't inspire confidence if one decides to have a wee hoon.
So, what are the options for brakes? I was thinking basically just thinking Mondeo V6, RST, Zetec S, ST170, FRP? I don't know, I'm new to Fords and compatibility. I'd obviously just go with a decent brand, and some good pads. I'm not wanting to spend a lot, because the car isn't really worth it, so something you could get from a scrappy or breakers would maybe be better (hence Mondeo thought)
I'm going to research a Blacktop Zetec conversion for next year too, and if the brakes would already be up to dealing with that all the better.
Cheers for any help,
Jamie.
I bought a MY2000 KA Collection, as the daily hack/shopping car. It will serve as to allow me to save money on insurance/running hopefully - so I can get something nicer next year etc. I look like a t
t, but i've been smiling an awful lot whilst driving it, so that has been exaggerated somewhat. It had 12 Months MOT and 6 Months Tax. However needs a wheel bearing, I judge it to have excessive play and don't know how it passed its MOT? The sills have been neatly welded, and the whole chassis undersealed a couple of years ago, when the sills were done apparently. Despite this it still looks rough, with bad paint touch ups etc. Who cares though, its a £500 Ford KA. So, I know the plan is basically to keep speed through corners etc, otherwise it won't make much progress. However, when I do need to brake, I feel almost as though I could do better by putting my hands out of the window, as an air brake; they're shocking, and don't inspire confidence if one decides to have a wee hoon.
So, what are the options for brakes? I was thinking basically just thinking Mondeo V6, RST, Zetec S, ST170, FRP? I don't know, I'm new to Fords and compatibility. I'd obviously just go with a decent brand, and some good pads. I'm not wanting to spend a lot, because the car isn't really worth it, so something you could get from a scrappy or breakers would maybe be better (hence Mondeo thought)
I'm going to research a Blacktop Zetec conversion for next year too, and if the brakes would already be up to dealing with that all the better.
Cheers for any help,
Jamie.
To be honest, I think you'll find that you won't need new callipers, upgraded pads, new discs and upgraded fluid and braided lines will be sufficient.
You'll find that most brakes are capable of overwhelming the tyres (i.e. locking them up) which is why even light cars have ABS these days. If you're not able to get the ABS to kick in on your car (assuming it has it, I don't know if KA's do) then there's more than likely something wrong with your current setup.
Getting a bigger brake kit isn't about applying more braking force, it's about getting more control and being able to brake multiple times without fade. Due to power to weight ratio of the car there will be a limit to the amount of energy you can physically generate in the brakes; so for this reason I think that a pad upgrade to a proper quality aftermarket friction material, new plain discs, braided lines and good quality fluid will be sufficient for that car.
I genuinely think that I could spec a setup of pads/discs/fluid for your car which you physically wouldn't be able to make fade, purely due to the power/weight ratio of the car as it stands. Of course if you upgrade the power and handling then you might need a big calliper upgrade in the future, but I'd deal with that in due course if I were you.
You'll find that most brakes are capable of overwhelming the tyres (i.e. locking them up) which is why even light cars have ABS these days. If you're not able to get the ABS to kick in on your car (assuming it has it, I don't know if KA's do) then there's more than likely something wrong with your current setup.
Getting a bigger brake kit isn't about applying more braking force, it's about getting more control and being able to brake multiple times without fade. Due to power to weight ratio of the car there will be a limit to the amount of energy you can physically generate in the brakes; so for this reason I think that a pad upgrade to a proper quality aftermarket friction material, new plain discs, braided lines and good quality fluid will be sufficient for that car.
I genuinely think that I could spec a setup of pads/discs/fluid for your car which you physically wouldn't be able to make fade, purely due to the power/weight ratio of the car as it stands. Of course if you upgrade the power and handling then you might need a big calliper upgrade in the future, but I'd deal with that in due course if I were you.
Braided lines are all more or less the same. Goodrich are a well known brand for these.
Good fluid is important. I'd recommend MOTUL RBF600 brake fluid, it's about £10 per 500ml bottle and you'll probably need about 2 or 3 bottles for a full change.
Discs don't make much difference to the stopping power, so whether you get drilled/grooved won't make a lot of difference. I'd recommend plain discs from Camskill, and use the money saved on the pads.
Pads, now pads are really where you make the most difference. In short, brake pads use a combination of abrasive (grinding) and adhesive (sticking) friction. All pads have elements in them which do both, but in different proportions. Abrasive friction is for when the brakes are cold. Adhesive is for when they are hot. You need to get the brakes up to temperature to make use of the adhesive friction element in the compound. So often there's a trade off between cold performance and hot performance in a pad, depending on the composition and the bias in the compound between abrasion and adhesion.
Expensive performance oriented pads which work really well when hot may be a bit wooden when cold, which is why most cars don't use them (well, and cost). There are also other trade offs, like noise/squeal which can occur in a performance pad which has been operated under optimal temperature, because the pads (when hot) leave a thin layer of adhesive material on the disc face which they then bind to when hot. If you drive a lot and don't get them hot then the abrasion wears the adhesive layer off the disc face, and then the brakes squeal. This is cured by getting them hot again to re-establish the layer on the disc face.
So you need to decide what you want to spend, whether you'll be getting them hot enough regularly, whether you'll put up with squeal, and brake dust, and ultimately what you're willing to compromise on to get the best performance.
For your car, being as it's not too heavy, I'd recommend Carbotech AX6 or the more hardcore XP8. Or alternatively the Ferodo DS2500.
Links:
http://www.camskill.co.uk/
http://www.carbotech-europe.com/compounds.htm
http://www.ferodoracing.com/it/car_racing/ds_2500....
(Note, Ferodo also do a more hardcore DS3000 and Carbotech has the XP10 and XP12 higher up the range. But these are aimed at higher power and/or heavier cars so I think that you'd struggle to get these up to temperature with the car as it is, hence my recommendations for their mid range pads.)
Good fluid is important. I'd recommend MOTUL RBF600 brake fluid, it's about £10 per 500ml bottle and you'll probably need about 2 or 3 bottles for a full change.
Discs don't make much difference to the stopping power, so whether you get drilled/grooved won't make a lot of difference. I'd recommend plain discs from Camskill, and use the money saved on the pads.
Pads, now pads are really where you make the most difference. In short, brake pads use a combination of abrasive (grinding) and adhesive (sticking) friction. All pads have elements in them which do both, but in different proportions. Abrasive friction is for when the brakes are cold. Adhesive is for when they are hot. You need to get the brakes up to temperature to make use of the adhesive friction element in the compound. So often there's a trade off between cold performance and hot performance in a pad, depending on the composition and the bias in the compound between abrasion and adhesion.
Expensive performance oriented pads which work really well when hot may be a bit wooden when cold, which is why most cars don't use them (well, and cost). There are also other trade offs, like noise/squeal which can occur in a performance pad which has been operated under optimal temperature, because the pads (when hot) leave a thin layer of adhesive material on the disc face which they then bind to when hot. If you drive a lot and don't get them hot then the abrasion wears the adhesive layer off the disc face, and then the brakes squeal. This is cured by getting them hot again to re-establish the layer on the disc face.
So you need to decide what you want to spend, whether you'll be getting them hot enough regularly, whether you'll put up with squeal, and brake dust, and ultimately what you're willing to compromise on to get the best performance.
For your car, being as it's not too heavy, I'd recommend Carbotech AX6 or the more hardcore XP8. Or alternatively the Ferodo DS2500.
Links:
http://www.camskill.co.uk/
http://www.carbotech-europe.com/compounds.htm
http://www.ferodoracing.com/it/car_racing/ds_2500....
(Note, Ferodo also do a more hardcore DS3000 and Carbotech has the XP10 and XP12 higher up the range. But these are aimed at higher power and/or heavier cars so I think that you'd struggle to get these up to temperature with the car as it is, hence my recommendations for their mid range pads.)
Top reply. Its only a 49BHP, tappet-y KA - but that doesn't mean it justifies having the virtually negligible braking force. I am obviously exaggerating, in typical forum manner, but they are really not confidence inspiring. In something like this, decent brakes might mean I can dare to have some fun in it.
JeS10 said:
Top reply. Its only a 49BHP, tappet-y KA - but that doesn't mean it justifies having the virtually negligible braking force. I am obviously exaggerating, in typical forum manner, but they are really not confidence inspiring. In something like this, decent brakes might mean I can dare to have some fun in it.
No problem. 
I think AX6 would be the right ones, even XP8 may be 'over specced'. (Note, there's no benefit to overspeccing because as you've probably gathered if you never get them hot enough then they'll perform poorly and squeal a lot. You just need the most appropriate ones.) If you want more advice on the Carbotech range call the number on that website and talk to Ian who runs the business. He's a really knowledgeable guy and will give you his honest recommendation. He can also supply the Motul fluid.Whilst agreeing with the above suggestions, I think the front brakes may be the same as fiesta and there are quite a few upgraded caliper options that just bolt on.
They're bigger though, so you'd need bigger wheels. Plenty options for you once you fit the zetec.
I have some Cossie front brakes that may fit spare in my garage from a fiesta. Model specific forums will answer the question of compatibility better.
They're bigger though, so you'd need bigger wheels. Plenty options for you once you fit the zetec.
I have some Cossie front brakes that may fit spare in my garage from a fiesta. Model specific forums will answer the question of compatibility better.
You can do anything up to the new Fiesta ST brakes.
Certain Focus / Mondeo / Escort caliper and disc combos will go on, with a drill out of the hub bolt hole iirc from something like 10mm to 12 or 8 to 10mm.
Its a lot of money against the value of the car. I'd be chucking some new run of the mill discs on it with some softer than your motor factors standard rubbish pads in and taking it from there.
Researched it a lot when I had a Mk5 fiesta as a runner as the brakes on that were awful too but ended up selling it on.
Certain Focus / Mondeo / Escort caliper and disc combos will go on, with a drill out of the hub bolt hole iirc from something like 10mm to 12 or 8 to 10mm.
Its a lot of money against the value of the car. I'd be chucking some new run of the mill discs on it with some softer than your motor factors standard rubbish pads in and taking it from there.
Researched it a lot when I had a Mk5 fiesta as a runner as the brakes on that were awful too but ended up selling it on.
Used to run a 2001 Ka (no ABS also) and found EBC greenstuff all round and a Ford fluid change on standard brake lines felt pretty good, no bother on a track day too.
See Motul 600s been mentioned, having looked into what to upgrade my current cars brakes with I nearl went for that but you do have to flush it more often than standard DOT 4 or 5.1. Ive got Motul 5.1 and cant fault it on hard driving.
See Motul 600s been mentioned, having looked into what to upgrade my current cars brakes with I nearl went for that but you do have to flush it more often than standard DOT 4 or 5.1. Ive got Motul 5.1 and cant fault it on hard driving.
personally I'd break the KA and then upgrade......... Oh wait that's not what you meant.
Erm, from mk3 Fiesta ford days, there's usually something bigger and ford in a breakers that you can pilfer calipers, discs and pads off for a starting point. Should be doable.
My mk3 wound up running ST170 front brakes, and zetec S mk5 rears. Same idea, slow as hell on a straight, but through corners was fun
Erm, from mk3 Fiesta ford days, there's usually something bigger and ford in a breakers that you can pilfer calipers, discs and pads off for a starting point. Should be doable.
My mk3 wound up running ST170 front brakes, and zetec S mk5 rears. Same idea, slow as hell on a straight, but through corners was fun
mgmrw2003 said:
Podie said:
Got some Volvo V50 and Mk3 Mondeo front calipers if they're of interest..?
Get them bought! Over-braked small fords are cracking fun!My ST220 has Focus ST calipers, hence the surplus Mk3 calipers. Essentially the same caliper as the ST170, so popular on Mk2 Mondeos, Fiestas etc
Podie said:
mgmrw2003 said:
Podie said:
Got some Volvo V50 and Mk3 Mondeo front calipers if they're of interest..?
Get them bought! Over-braked small fords are cracking fun!My ST220 has Focus ST calipers, hence the surplus Mk3 calipers. Essentially the same caliper as the ST170, so popular on Mk2 Mondeos, Fiestas etc
mgmrw2003 said:
Podie said:
mgmrw2003 said:
Podie said:
Got some Volvo V50 and Mk3 Mondeo front calipers if they're of interest..?
Get them bought! Over-braked small fords are cracking fun!My ST220 has Focus ST calipers, hence the surplus Mk3 calipers. Essentially the same caliper as the ST170, so popular on Mk2 Mondeos, Fiestas etc
There are some serious Transit brakes, but I've not managed to get a set. That said, e Focus ST (225) fronts on my ST220 do a great job - I had them remanufactured as well to be sure.
Podie said:
mgmrw2003 said:
Podie said:
mgmrw2003 said:
Podie said:
Got some Volvo V50 and Mk3 Mondeo front calipers if they're of interest..?
Get them bought! Over-braked small fords are cracking fun!My ST220 has Focus ST calipers, hence the surplus Mk3 calipers. Essentially the same caliper as the ST170, so popular on Mk2 Mondeos, Fiestas etc
There are some serious Transit brakes, but I've not managed to get a set. That said, e Focus ST (225) fronts on my ST220 do a great job - I had them remanufactured as well to be sure.
mgmrw2003 said:
Podie said:
That makes more sense
Yep, exactly what I have on mine.
Sorry, Im all numbers and digits. Yep, exactly what I have on mine.
Yeah, he loved that aspect, as brakes were cheap as chips....... Suppose it's why fast fords have become something of a "blue collar hero" (sorry for the tabloid cliche)
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