So what's a Sagaris like to drive?
Discussion
Afternoon all,
Just to give you a bit of background, I'm on my second Tuscan, a cracking car which is now 100% mechanically sorted and drives pretty well (for a Tuscan), but there's no denying the fairly "lively" handling to go along with the mental noise and performance.
In a search for something a bit different I bought a 911 turbo earlier this year to keep the Tuscan company in the garage. I was looking for something a bit more comfy (tick), and a bit better for longer drives and with more sorted handling (another big tick), however this wonder of engineering leaves me a little cold. It's a stunning car and stupidly fast, delivering similar/better performance to the Tuscan on paper, but all in giant lumps of turbo derived torque and BHP, properly shoves you into your seat, but zero drama, rock solid handling/balance/stability/traction + fairly weedy engine and exhaust noise (unless at absolute full chat) have caused me to gravitate to the Tuscan 9 times out of 10 when "going for a drive" this summer. As such I've done about 500 miles in 5 months in the Porsche!
I'm going to hang on to the Porsche for a bit more, give me a bit more of a chance to gel with it and allegedly it may be going up in value and I'd hate to miss out if values go crazy for them, and I do understand this to a point, they really are a great car, just not for me, maybe I'm a bit more extrovert, maybe I just like annoying the neighbours at 7am on a Sunday.
Point to point it'd smash the Tuscan no doubt, especially with me behind the wheel.
Anyway, this got me thinking, perhaps I should have gone with the V8 Vantage I looked at before I got the Pork, better residuals and lower cost of ownership won me over there.
So, to the point, whats a sagaris like to drive? I understand they are the best "behaved" TVR ever, chalk and cheese compared to a Tuscan of any generation. With similar performance as the power-train is essentially the same as in the Tuscan.
Are they really that good? How would they compare to something like the 911? FWIW I've never managed to really push the limit in the Pork, never on the roads anyway, never even managed to make the electro-gadgets kick in to lend a hand, doubt the AWD has ever been particularly worried either. I probably drive it a bit too much like the TVR, gently feeding in with the loud pedal, mashing it will just result in the arse end letting go.
Just wanted some thoughts before I got wasting any dealers time "just to see what it's like"...
Other options off the top of my head are a V8 Vantage that lives outdoors, or an Exige perhaps (but that's the outsider really) or maybe a DB9/older Vanquish (nasty interior and I'd be buying at the bottom of the market)/XKR-S, The DB9/Jag/Vanq are brilliant cars, driven them both and they are brutal things, but very much more GT oriented (obviously... because they are GT's. duh! )
ETA of course it's a lot easier to trade in a Tuscan against another TVR than it is any of the others, and I cant stand selling privately because I'm a big grump.
Cheers
Dave
Just to give you a bit of background, I'm on my second Tuscan, a cracking car which is now 100% mechanically sorted and drives pretty well (for a Tuscan), but there's no denying the fairly "lively" handling to go along with the mental noise and performance.
In a search for something a bit different I bought a 911 turbo earlier this year to keep the Tuscan company in the garage. I was looking for something a bit more comfy (tick), and a bit better for longer drives and with more sorted handling (another big tick), however this wonder of engineering leaves me a little cold. It's a stunning car and stupidly fast, delivering similar/better performance to the Tuscan on paper, but all in giant lumps of turbo derived torque and BHP, properly shoves you into your seat, but zero drama, rock solid handling/balance/stability/traction + fairly weedy engine and exhaust noise (unless at absolute full chat) have caused me to gravitate to the Tuscan 9 times out of 10 when "going for a drive" this summer. As such I've done about 500 miles in 5 months in the Porsche!
I'm going to hang on to the Porsche for a bit more, give me a bit more of a chance to gel with it and allegedly it may be going up in value and I'd hate to miss out if values go crazy for them, and I do understand this to a point, they really are a great car, just not for me, maybe I'm a bit more extrovert, maybe I just like annoying the neighbours at 7am on a Sunday.
Point to point it'd smash the Tuscan no doubt, especially with me behind the wheel.Anyway, this got me thinking, perhaps I should have gone with the V8 Vantage I looked at before I got the Pork, better residuals and lower cost of ownership won me over there.
So, to the point, whats a sagaris like to drive? I understand they are the best "behaved" TVR ever, chalk and cheese compared to a Tuscan of any generation. With similar performance as the power-train is essentially the same as in the Tuscan.
Are they really that good? How would they compare to something like the 911? FWIW I've never managed to really push the limit in the Pork, never on the roads anyway, never even managed to make the electro-gadgets kick in to lend a hand, doubt the AWD has ever been particularly worried either. I probably drive it a bit too much like the TVR, gently feeding in with the loud pedal, mashing it will just result in the arse end letting go.
Just wanted some thoughts before I got wasting any dealers time "just to see what it's like"...
Other options off the top of my head are a V8 Vantage that lives outdoors, or an Exige perhaps (but that's the outsider really) or maybe a DB9/older Vanquish (nasty interior and I'd be buying at the bottom of the market)/XKR-S, The DB9/Jag/Vanq are brilliant cars, driven them both and they are brutal things, but very much more GT oriented (obviously... because they are GT's. duh!
)ETA of course it's a lot easier to trade in a Tuscan against another TVR than it is any of the others, and I cant stand selling privately because I'm a big grump.
Cheers
Dave
Edited by ILoveMondeo on Monday 21st September 13:36
It's superb.
I'll try to explain.... The front grip is remarkable. A quick rack means the course corrections are nearly telepathic. The rear can be playful if you want it, but the rest of the time it's very faithful. You have to be doing something really stupid to go through tyres - mine have been replaced on age rather than wear. The handling is razor sharp, but benign at the same time. Throttle modulation is very easy and you quickly become accustomed to the sight lines.
The damping is very well judged, but it cannot be described as 'relaxing'. This is no GT - in fact a trip to Le mans is an endurance event just to get there! It's thirsty work as well, as it does get rather warm in the cabin.
I have often described it as the best car I have driven - mine has out-lasted a F430, Clio V6, Escort Cosworth and two other TVRs - the only reason the 911 is still on the drive is that the wife loves it (and is rather scared of the TVR). You really can enjoy the drive but when you want to make progress, it really does move. Far faster than what you need for modern driving, but an utter hoot.
Basically, no matter what it does, I will always love it. That is the final part of the equation for me - character. It has it in spades and has the bite to go with the bark.
I'll try to explain.... The front grip is remarkable. A quick rack means the course corrections are nearly telepathic. The rear can be playful if you want it, but the rest of the time it's very faithful. You have to be doing something really stupid to go through tyres - mine have been replaced on age rather than wear. The handling is razor sharp, but benign at the same time. Throttle modulation is very easy and you quickly become accustomed to the sight lines.
The damping is very well judged, but it cannot be described as 'relaxing'. This is no GT - in fact a trip to Le mans is an endurance event just to get there! It's thirsty work as well, as it does get rather warm in the cabin.
I have often described it as the best car I have driven - mine has out-lasted a F430, Clio V6, Escort Cosworth and two other TVRs - the only reason the 911 is still on the drive is that the wife loves it (and is rather scared of the TVR). You really can enjoy the drive but when you want to make progress, it really does move. Far faster than what you need for modern driving, but an utter hoot.
Basically, no matter what it does, I will always love it. That is the final part of the equation for me - character. It has it in spades and has the bite to go with the bark.
Thanks Don, kind of what I was expecting. I appreciate your feedback.
Looking at your profile your comments about your 911 are a little harsher than mine, but I completely get the point.
Stupendously fast, but somehow boring with it! But some people love that, effortless ludicrous speed with no drama!
I think the Tuscan just delivers a little bit too much drama sometimes!
Not expecting comfort levels much better than the Tuscan, I've sat in a Sagaris before, and build quality if obviously much better. Never had a TVR with aircon before, which I suppose helps a bit but with all the transmission sat inches away from your leg it's never going to be particularly cool in there!
Lack of roof off in the Sagaris is the only thing I can find against it really.
Sag or T350 (which as I understand it is a very very similar setup to the Sagaris) consistently getting such good feedback about the handling. I suppose I really must try one!
I know it's a tired subject around here and if your car is a keeper you probably couldn't care less, but the prices seem to have dipped a little lately? When I looked 6-12 months ago they were all over 60k, now quite a few below that mark now.
Looking at your profile your comments about your 911 are a little harsher than mine, but I completely get the point.
Stupendously fast, but somehow boring with it! But some people love that, effortless ludicrous speed with no drama!
I think the Tuscan just delivers a little bit too much drama sometimes!
Not expecting comfort levels much better than the Tuscan, I've sat in a Sagaris before, and build quality if obviously much better. Never had a TVR with aircon before, which I suppose helps a bit but with all the transmission sat inches away from your leg it's never going to be particularly cool in there!
Lack of roof off in the Sagaris is the only thing I can find against it really.
Sag or T350 (which as I understand it is a very very similar setup to the Sagaris) consistently getting such good feedback about the handling. I suppose I really must try one!
I know it's a tired subject around here and if your car is a keeper you probably couldn't care less, but the prices seem to have dipped a little lately? When I looked 6-12 months ago they were all over 60k, now quite a few below that mark now.
I believe that only the Tuscan 2 and the Sagaris have that suspension set up - the T350 doesn't (I may be wrong....). One of the cars that went was a Tamora, and yes it was good, but it was no Sagaris.
Values - I haven't watched them for over a year. I'm glad they have leveled out though, but the car five years ago was listed by my insurance broker as a 'future classic'. All the magazines seem to be sleeping on the marque as a collectors item at the moment - let's see what happens with the rebirth.
Values - I haven't watched them for over a year. I'm glad they have leveled out though, but the car five years ago was listed by my insurance broker as a 'future classic'. All the magazines seem to be sleeping on the marque as a collectors item at the moment - let's see what happens with the rebirth.
I also think the Sag is the most enjoyable car I've ever owned. Although I enjoy other TVR's, it is a significant improvement over the Tuscan.
But, please don't expect the Sagaris to be 'more comfortable' than the Tuscan, it isn't. It was built as TVR's racer for the road so the suspension is significantly harder than any other of the ex-factory cars. It also has less ground clearance which can and does, cause grounding issues on bumpy roads or on ramps. But this gives the car exquisite handling as Don1 said.
I have tried many other cars as potential replacements, but not found anything under £100K to match it for putting a smile on your face. As you've also found, 911's, AMV8's, R8's etc. etc. are very capable and definitely higher quality, but just aren't as much fun!
But, please don't expect the Sagaris to be 'more comfortable' than the Tuscan, it isn't. It was built as TVR's racer for the road so the suspension is significantly harder than any other of the ex-factory cars. It also has less ground clearance which can and does, cause grounding issues on bumpy roads or on ramps. But this gives the car exquisite handling as Don1 said.
I have tried many other cars as potential replacements, but not found anything under £100K to match it for putting a smile on your face. As you've also found, 911's, AMV8's, R8's etc. etc. are very capable and definitely higher quality, but just aren't as much fun!
I drive a Sag, a friend of mine owns a Tuscan S, which I drove, and I know a guy with a 996 S, who took me for a ride: Nothing corners like a Sag. The back of the car is such a cool thing. The steering is top, the car is so close to the road! Every time I take the car, I wear a smile, really every time!
I've owned a Tuscan Mk1 T350 and a few Porsches including GT3 and Cayman R plus 997 C4S...
The Sag is definitely the best of the TVR's it cured the roll oversteer the Tuscan had and feels more planted than the T350. It is still old technology though and you certainly consider every move especially in the Wet! It does have the TVR darty quick rack and the ergonomics aren't as well resolved but it does put a smile on your face. they are appreciating and aren't cheap now but hey!
If got a GT4 coming soon so hope that is a bit more raw than a normal Porsche but may sell the Sag now as I can't warrant two fun cars..
The Sag is definitely the best of the TVR's it cured the roll oversteer the Tuscan had and feels more planted than the T350. It is still old technology though and you certainly consider every move especially in the Wet! It does have the TVR darty quick rack and the ergonomics aren't as well resolved but it does put a smile on your face. they are appreciating and aren't cheap now but hey!
If got a GT4 coming soon so hope that is a bit more raw than a normal Porsche but may sell the Sag now as I can't warrant two fun cars..
I used to own a Tuscan with one of Dom Excellent 4.3’s in, a good fun car, loved the roof off experience and you could have some “fun” at sensible speeds. Toured around the UK in it some years ago and it was comfy and practical enough although there was always something that needed a little attention!
I drove Dom’s Sagaris not long after he bought out the 4.5, it was quite a bit nicer to drive on the road, felt more stable, great steering without being tiresome, just a bit better in all respects than the Tuscan.
Last year I also drove a T350T, to me it reminded me more of the Sagaris than the Tuscan and with the roof panels off was a double bonus, so IMO this is the TVR I would buy if I was thinking about another TVR.
I see in the classifieds there is a Red one with one of Dom’s 4.5’s in, that’s where I would start
I currently own a 996 turbo, it’s an X50 has KW3 suspension, GT3 brakes, Wavetrack rear diff, an exhaust and mapped to around 550, trust me it is NOT boring, Very fast and stable.
A better faster road car I cannot imagine, But I do understand when people say there “boring” for want of a better word.
I Compete in mine doing the odd hillclimb and sprint where it is right on the money re speed etc, so I get to drive it like a loon without attracting the attentions of Mr Plod which justifies the car, just as a road car you would either get hugely frustrated or lose your licence, this is why I completely understand some prefer a TVR as you can still have the fun without going stupidly fast
I drove Dom’s Sagaris not long after he bought out the 4.5, it was quite a bit nicer to drive on the road, felt more stable, great steering without being tiresome, just a bit better in all respects than the Tuscan.
Last year I also drove a T350T, to me it reminded me more of the Sagaris than the Tuscan and with the roof panels off was a double bonus, so IMO this is the TVR I would buy if I was thinking about another TVR.
I see in the classifieds there is a Red one with one of Dom’s 4.5’s in, that’s where I would start
I currently own a 996 turbo, it’s an X50 has KW3 suspension, GT3 brakes, Wavetrack rear diff, an exhaust and mapped to around 550, trust me it is NOT boring, Very fast and stable.
A better faster road car I cannot imagine, But I do understand when people say there “boring” for want of a better word.
I Compete in mine doing the odd hillclimb and sprint where it is right on the money re speed etc, so I get to drive it like a loon without attracting the attentions of Mr Plod which justifies the car, just as a road car you would either get hugely frustrated or lose your licence, this is why I completely understand some prefer a TVR as you can still have the fun without going stupidly fast
Don1 said:
I believe that only the Tuscan 2 and the Sagaris have that suspension set up - the T350 doesn't (I may be wrong....). One of the cars that went was a Tamora, and yes it was good, but it was no Sagaris.
Values - I haven't watched them for over a year. I'm glad they have leveled out though, but the car five years ago was listed by my insurance broker as a 'future classic'. All the magazines seem to be sleeping on the marque as a collectors item at the moment - let's see what happens with the rebirth.
I've found quite a difference between my first Tuscan, a Mk1 and my Mk2 convertible.Values - I haven't watched them for over a year. I'm glad they have leveled out though, but the car five years ago was listed by my insurance broker as a 'future classic'. All the magazines seem to be sleeping on the marque as a collectors item at the moment - let's see what happens with the rebirth.
I cant speak for a Sagaris but I was impressed by a Tamora test drive which I understand is very similar to a T350.
Not sure that helped at all
I've owned both a Sagaris and a T350.
The Sagaris is certainly better planted on the road, at high acceleration it's less twitchy than the T350. In general driving I couldn't tell you if there is any difference; apart from the higher ground clearance they feel much the same to me (at normal speeds).
In terms of acceleration there's little in that two for an average Joe like myself, however I found how they deliver power totally different. The Sagaris felt like it delivered more power lower down the rev range; the T350 "comes alive" at about 4000rpm where it's rather underwhelming below that. Probably the 4l vs the 3.6l
Imho, the Sagaris is worth the extra money.. Whilst I enjoy the T350, and it's scratching my TVR itch, it's just not the Sagaris in looks or sound. I will own another Sagaris someday
The Sagaris is certainly better planted on the road, at high acceleration it's less twitchy than the T350. In general driving I couldn't tell you if there is any difference; apart from the higher ground clearance they feel much the same to me (at normal speeds).
In terms of acceleration there's little in that two for an average Joe like myself, however I found how they deliver power totally different. The Sagaris felt like it delivered more power lower down the rev range; the T350 "comes alive" at about 4000rpm where it's rather underwhelming below that. Probably the 4l vs the 3.6l
Imho, the Sagaris is worth the extra money.. Whilst I enjoy the T350, and it's scratching my TVR itch, it's just not the Sagaris in looks or sound. I will own another Sagaris someday
ILoveMondeo said:
Thanks for the feedback everyone, that 4.3 T350 in the classifieds does look like stunning value!
Plenty of food for thought.
Will give it some thought over the next couple of months and go and have a look at some cars in the new year I think!
Cheers
Dave
If it is the one from TVR Mads I believe it is owned by James of TVR Mads so should be a good one, don,t forget Powers give a 100,000 miles warranty so they put their money where their mouth is, I have one of their 4.5 engines and it is awesome and a pleasure to drive, so much better than the original 3.6 IMHO that isPlenty of food for thought.
Will give it some thought over the next couple of months and go and have a look at some cars in the new year I think!
Cheers
Dave
Mark A S said:
I currently own a 996 turbo, it’s an X50 has KW3 suspension, GT3 brakes, Wavetrack rear diff, an exhaust and mapped to around 550, trust me it is NOT boring, Very fast and stable.
A better faster road car I cannot imagine, But I do understand when people say there “boring” for want of a better word.
I've driven a 996 turbo X50 and I agree it's not boring, the sense of acceleration is mind blowing. However, the one thing it lacks IMHO is theatre - the noise, vibrations, twitching of the TVR just make a more sensory drive if that makes sense. That said the TVR wouldn't see which way the Porsche went on the twisties.A better faster road car I cannot imagine, But I do understand when people say there “boring” for want of a better word.
I've also driven a Sag a few times, they are a little more planted than the T350 and don't tram as much, though interior wise it's identical to my 350.
Straightline speed I can't compare as I have a 4.3 from Power, I do feel the more planted nature of the Sag gives a little more confidence in a straight line and round the bends.
That said, I love my T350 and couldn't justify the cost to change for a standard engine Saggy, Olli's 4.3 Sag that came up for sale recently though did alter that slightly
Zippee said:
I've also driven a Sag a few times, they are a little more planted than the T350 and don't tram as much, though interior wise it's identical to my 350.
Straightline speed I can't compare as I have a 4.3 from Power, I do feel the more planted nature of the Sag gives a little more confidence in a straight line and round the bends.
I test drove the T350 with a view to trading up from my Chimaera 500, and I just didn't bond with it at all - it felt very twitchy and didn't inspire confidence, and I just didn't gel with it. I was then persuaded to take a Sagaris out immediately afterwards over the same route, and immediately gelled with it and felt totally confident. The difference was incredible. I bought the Sagaris on the spot, despite it being twice the amount of money I'd budgeted in my "cost to change". Straightline speed I can't compare as I have a 4.3 from Power, I do feel the more planted nature of the Sag gives a little more confidence in a straight line and round the bends.
In retrospect, though, it was a fortuitous purchase as I happened to buy at the time when Sagaris prices were at their absolute rock bottom, back in 2008. Yay.
Don1 said:
I believe that only the Tuscan 2 and the Sagaris have that suspension set up - the T350 doesn't (I may be wrong....). One of the cars that went was a Tamora, and yes it was good, but it was no Sagaris
Out of the box new for new the Sagaris is no Tamora. The Sagaris steering is slow in comparison with the Tam and it suffers with under steer,
The Sag can easily be modified and when sorted it does edge out the Tamora.
Also had lots of very capable cars in the last 25 years, including Ferrari. Sags, 911 turbos and a V6 Clio as it happens...We still have the Tam....
Not wanting to sound smart, but it's a fact - we don't all think the same of our cars, some of that is linked to our ability to get the best from the cars we own.
Edited to add, I've really enjoyed the 911 turbos I've owned to date.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 23 September 21:14
TVRMs said:
Out of the box new for new the Sagaris is no Tamora.
The Sagaris steering is slow in comparison with the Tam and it suffers with under steer,
The Sag can easily be modified and when sorted it does edge out the Tamora.
Also had lots of very capable cars in the last 25 years, including Ferrari. Sags, 911 turbos and a V6 Clio as it happens...We still have the Tam....
Not wanting to sound smart, but it's a fact - we don't all think the same of our cars, some of that is linked to our ability to get the best from the cars we own.
Edited to add, I've really enjoyed the 911 turbos I've owned to date.
My own feeling is that nothing matters more than feeling connected and "at one" with a car, and thinking that it reacts to you telepathically. The Sagaris steering is slow in comparison with the Tam and it suffers with under steer,
The Sag can easily be modified and when sorted it does edge out the Tamora.
Also had lots of very capable cars in the last 25 years, including Ferrari. Sags, 911 turbos and a V6 Clio as it happens...We still have the Tam....
Not wanting to sound smart, but it's a fact - we don't all think the same of our cars, some of that is linked to our ability to get the best from the cars we own.
Edited to add, I've really enjoyed the 911 turbos I've owned to date.
Different people finds that in different cars. Which essentially renders every review irrelevant other than as an indication.
JonRB said:
TVRMs said:
Out of the box new for new the Sagaris is no Tamora.
The Sagaris steering is slow in comparison with the Tam and it suffers with under steer,
The Sag can easily be modified and when sorted it does edge out the Tamora.
Also had lots of very capable cars in the last 25 years, including Ferrari. Sags, 911 turbos and a V6 Clio as it happens...We still have the Tam....
Not wanting to sound smart, but it's a fact - we don't all think the same of our cars, some of that is linked to our ability to get the best from the cars we own.
Edited to add, I've really enjoyed the 911 turbos I've owned to date.
My own feeling is that nothing matters more than feeling connected and "at one" with a car, and thinking that it reacts to you telepathically. The Sagaris steering is slow in comparison with the Tam and it suffers with under steer,
The Sag can easily be modified and when sorted it does edge out the Tamora.
Also had lots of very capable cars in the last 25 years, including Ferrari. Sags, 911 turbos and a V6 Clio as it happens...We still have the Tam....
Not wanting to sound smart, but it's a fact - we don't all think the same of our cars, some of that is linked to our ability to get the best from the cars we own.
Edited to add, I've really enjoyed the 911 turbos I've owned to date.
Different people finds that in different cars. Which essentially renders every review irrelevant other than as an indication.
)TVRMs said:
Out of the box new for new the Sagaris is no Tamora.
The Sagaris steering is slow in comparison with the Tam and it suffers with under steer,
Not wanting to sound smart, but it's a fact - we don't all think the same of our cars, some of that is linked to our ability to get the best from the cars we own.
The Sagaris steering is slow in comparison with the Tam and it suffers with under steer,
Not wanting to sound smart, but it's a fact - we don't all think the same of our cars, some of that is linked to our ability to get the best from the cars we own.
Owning/owned both, not a chance. I guess we will have to disagree on how good the Tam is Vs the Sagaris.Only you will know if your fun motoring requires the roof off or not. That has to be your call. Mine does.....
If I had your budget I would buy the best Tuscan 2 or Convertible I could get my hands on (that rather nice Vulcan Tuscan with the big V8 particularly appeals), and the roof would be off/down all year around.
I have only been in a Sagaris once, I am the poor relation here, and it did have a totally black interior, and it was a rainy day, but it ended any itch I had for a Sagaris right there.
If I had your budget I would buy the best Tuscan 2 or Convertible I could get my hands on (that rather nice Vulcan Tuscan with the big V8 particularly appeals), and the roof would be off/down all year around.
I have only been in a Sagaris once, I am the poor relation here, and it did have a totally black interior, and it was a rainy day, but it ended any itch I had for a Sagaris right there.
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