This is going to rile ppl, but Ive gotta ask...
Discussion
Did anyone actually learn to drive before buying their Tiv?
I mean a vast majority of posters all seem to be talking about taking driving courses *after* buying their cars as opposed to either taking courses beforehand or building their way up thru the rwd sportscar ranks and well frankly learning how to drive traditional sports cars properly.
There seems to be some idea out there that Tivs are inherently lethal in the wet or that you need some special training to drive one. They arent and you dont.
To drive a Tiv at speed in wet or dry you follow exactly the same rules as you do with any other lwt roadster. A Tiv will not bite you anymore than anything else will if you obey the rules and the rules are exactly the same as they have been for traditional roadsters for the last 100yrs. This is what flumoxes me the most to be honest. Nothing has changed. They are the same rules of driving yet for some reason ppl seem to view the car as the culprit and not themselves.
You have no excuses ppl if you arent upto the task, the situation hasnt changed in the last 100yrs. Think you suddenly need a driver aid to control your car? Fine, then buy something slower, less powerful until you have brought your skills upto an appropriate level where you dont need them.
Nothing reinforces that TVR are crude, ill-handling beasts perception, more than the owners themselves.
I mean a vast majority of posters all seem to be talking about taking driving courses *after* buying their cars as opposed to either taking courses beforehand or building their way up thru the rwd sportscar ranks and well frankly learning how to drive traditional sports cars properly.
There seems to be some idea out there that Tivs are inherently lethal in the wet or that you need some special training to drive one. They arent and you dont.
To drive a Tiv at speed in wet or dry you follow exactly the same rules as you do with any other lwt roadster. A Tiv will not bite you anymore than anything else will if you obey the rules and the rules are exactly the same as they have been for traditional roadsters for the last 100yrs. This is what flumoxes me the most to be honest. Nothing has changed. They are the same rules of driving yet for some reason ppl seem to view the car as the culprit and not themselves.
You have no excuses ppl if you arent upto the task, the situation hasnt changed in the last 100yrs. Think you suddenly need a driver aid to control your car? Fine, then buy something slower, less powerful until you have brought your skills upto an appropriate level where you dont need them.
Nothing reinforces that TVR are crude, ill-handling beasts perception, more than the owners themselves.
Given that most of the cars on the road today are FWD it is reasonable to assume that a lot of people will not have RWD experience.
That fact alone should not be a reason to not buy a TVR.
If you want one, have one.
If you think you need training get it, if you havent and stuff it then thats a lesson learned.
I really dont see what the problem is here?
Unless you've just hit your insurance renewal point...
That fact alone should not be a reason to not buy a TVR.
If you want one, have one.
If you think you need training get it, if you havent and stuff it then thats a lesson learned.
I really dont see what the problem is here?
Unless you've just hit your insurance renewal point...
Started with an MX5, spun it a few times whilst I was getting used to the whole RWD thing.
Now have a Chim and I want some driver training after taking 18 months to get used to it so that I can make the most of it and take it on a track.
Sometimes you don't realise how powerful a car is until you own one, then its only sensible to get training.
Now have a Chim and I want some driver training after taking 18 months to get used to it so that I can make the most of it and take it on a track.
Sometimes you don't realise how powerful a car is until you own one, then its only sensible to get training.
I think the difference is that the majority of people learnst to drive in FWD, relatively low poer hatch backs, and then migrated upwards, to maybe a saloon with a bit more power. Posisbly with ABS.
TVRS being a different type of car, RWD, relatively high Power/Weight torque/weight ratios. Require approching with a more care than your average commuter car. When you start approaching cars with similar power you tend to get more nanny aids. A Seat Leon Cupra R has Traction Control and ABS, as well as being FWD. The fact that TVRs also lack saftey features can add to the fear of a potentially dangerous car.
TVRS being a different type of car, RWD, relatively high Power/Weight torque/weight ratios. Require approching with a more care than your average commuter car. When you start approaching cars with similar power you tend to get more nanny aids. A Seat Leon Cupra R has Traction Control and ABS, as well as being FWD. The fact that TVRs also lack saftey features can add to the fear of a potentially dangerous car.
I'd only driven FWD when I bought my Chimaera 500 and simply treated it with extreme respect (and some fear) for about a year whilst I gradually got used to it. Nowadays the fear has gone but the respect remains.
However, additional driver training is always laudible and should never be discouraged.
However, additional driver training is always laudible and should never be discouraged.
The power, weight, torque etc on these cars do indeed make them more sensitive in the wet. I am not new to fast cars, but the Tiv is the first powerful car I have owned without Trac-control and ABS. Most younger drivers will also be in this position. I agree, a car is only a safe as it's driver but I can't imagine it would hurt to take an advanced driving course! I haven't taken one myself but I am thinking about it. Why not?
>> Edited by K.K. on Thursday 17th February 13:47
>> Edited by K.K. on Thursday 17th February 13:47
DJC said:
Did anyone actually learn to drive before buying their Tiv?
I mean a vast majority of posters all seem to be talking about taking driving courses *after* buying their cars as opposed to either taking courses beforehand or building their way up thru the rwd sportscar ranks and well frankly learning how to drive traditional sports cars properly.
There seems to be some idea out there that Tivs are inherently lethal in the wet or that you need some special training to drive one. They arent and you dont.
To drive a Tiv at speed in wet or dry you follow exactly the same rules as you do with any other lwt roadster. A Tiv will not bite you anymore than anything else will if you obey the rules and the rules are exactly the same as they have been for traditional roadsters for the last 100yrs. This is what flumoxes me the most to be honest. Nothing has changed. They are the same rules of driving yet for some reason ppl seem to view the car as the culprit and not themselves.
You have no excuses ppl if you arent upto the task, the situation hasnt changed in the last 100yrs. Think you suddenly need a driver aid to control your car? Fine, then buy something slower, less powerful until you have brought your skills upto an appropriate level where you dont need them.
Nothing reinforces that TVR are crude, ill-handling beasts perception, more than the owners themselves.
what is wrong with trying to do things better and to be a better road user. I have driven all sorts but just wanted to make sure I knew what to expect with a RWD, hence the training. Id rather learn the easy way!!!
Plotloss said:
I really dont see what the problem is here?
Problem is, folks start to think that they 'need' driver aids. They think there's an issue about the car not having them. Lost count of the number of posts of folks who want a TVR but also want ABS and traction control. My view would be to decide what you want (in terms of performance and driver aids) before deciding on a marque/model.
Many moons ago, I had a 911 Carrera. When the time came to replace it tge 964 were out, and they introduced power steering and ABS....and I didn't want power steering and ABS...I liked the 911 the way it was. That prompted my move to a TVR.
As more folks buy in to the TVR 'brand', find them 'scary', put them through hedges backwards etc etc, the more it will be seen the car's fault in some way (jeez it's happening now), and soon we'll have TVR's with all these 'aids'. And no doubt assisted by traction control and ABS there will be fewer TVRs wrapped round lampposts, and those that wanted/needed them in the first place will take it as proof that car cars really needed them.
I have always found it interesting how poorly so many TVRs are driven on track days (not all, there are some great drivers out there). But even these guys have a go on track! I'm appauled that the threads of what other cars have been 'wasted' on the roads. Anyone can press the loud pedal, and the fact is a TVR with is loud pedal pressed is undoubtedly quicker than most other things with their loud pedal similarly pressed. But on track days I've seen Cerbs and Tuscans passed by Elises, Scoobs....and even Alfas, an Audi saloon and an MGB! Too many folks can only press the loud pedal on the straights, and then go Driving Miss Daisy round the corners. As I said before - not all - but too many IMHO for what should be a marque the demands a certain skill level.
One sure fire way to get folks 'trained' for high performance RWD cars is to get them on a fast bike for a year or two. It becomes ingrained very very quickly what you can and can't get away with!
I guess its inevivable as TVR's image gets better and better, more folks want to buy in to it. Its a pity that quite a few buy in to the image though, and not the reality of the package - otherwise why would folks want a TVR with driver aids?
Always seemed to be a bit like "I want to buy an apple. Only I like the idea of peeling something; I want segments in my apple, plus it's got to be real juicy, and high on vitamin C." Well don't buy an apple, buy an orange!
So, yes, rant over. I think it is only a matter of time before the TVR driving experience gets diluted based on the market's 'needs' for the cars. In pure business terms, there has to be a bigger market for a car with a fast image that mollycoddles the driver, rather than a fast car that doesn't. I doubt if Porsche could now sell a car without ABS, power steering etc etc., whereas once the rawness and immediacy of the car was the sole purpose to buy one.
WB
DJC said:
Did anyone actually learn to drive before buying their Tiv?
I mean a vast majority of posters all seem to be talking about taking driving courses *after* buying their cars as opposed to either taking courses beforehand or building their way up thru the rwd sportscar ranks and well frankly learning how to drive traditional sports cars properly.
VW Beetle - crude RWD
Porsche 914, Crude RWD - bit more power
TVR S - Crude RWD - bit more power
TVR Chim - Slightly less Crude RWD- bit more power
..then I began driver training courses as I realised that the power of the Chim outweighed my ability as a "driver".
The thing is, if the sportscar "bug" bites you when you see a car and fall in love with it, and you can afford to have it then why not buy it. You can't expect someone to say.. hey I want a T350 and I can afford one, but I've never driven an MGB, so I'll get one of them first
..better to do the training in your new T350 and enjoy owning the car. Its the people who do no driver training and think they are Colin McRae that you've got to worry about. Cheers
Matt
>> Edited by M@H on Thursday 17th February 14:07
Prior to buying the Cerb, my most powerful stead was a 2 litre Granada (about 60bhp per tonne), the next vehicle being this 320 bhp per tonne piece of plastic.
With in the first month I found myself hurtling sideways down a dual carriageway, fortunately not managing to hit anyone.
My past experience of wheelspin has been from a standing start with too many revs or in slippery conditions.
I've never driven a vehicle that hits a power curve at 5.4k revs in third gear (80mph) & wheelspins.
My car's cheaper than a new Vectra, I can fully understand why people go on these courses, so they can enjoy the car safely & no it's limits.
Just my thoughts
With in the first month I found myself hurtling sideways down a dual carriageway, fortunately not managing to hit anyone.
My past experience of wheelspin has been from a standing start with too many revs or in slippery conditions.
I've never driven a vehicle that hits a power curve at 5.4k revs in third gear (80mph) & wheelspins.
My car's cheaper than a new Vectra, I can fully understand why people go on these courses, so they can enjoy the car safely & no it's limits.
Just my thoughts
tvrolet said:So what you're basically saying is that you don't want plebs diluting the He-Man image you have of yourself because you can handle a hairy-arsed TVR. Because if mere mortals are able to drive the car (with driver aids) then you'll have to find some other vehicle to assert your masculinity with.
(stuff)
>> Edited by JonRB on Thursday 17th February 14:11
JonRB said:
tvrolet said:
(stuff)
So what you're basically saying is that you don't want plebs diluting the He-Man image you have of yourself because you can handle a hairy-arsed TVR. Because if mere mortals are able to drive the car (with driver aids) then you'll have to find some other vehicle to assert your masculinity with.
>> Edited by JonRB on Thursday 17th February 14:11
Nah... my car is 'under construction' in the garage right now. No intention of buying anything else, so I'm not a prospective new customer anymore.
But, put another way. Some folks want the challenge of skiing black runs. We should therefore rejoice that there are black runs to ski, and not propose that they are all flattened out to blues (or greens) just because that would make then easier/safer. Likewise, I think there should always be a place for cars that challenge; that demand respect yet offer rewards if mastered. TVR currently sit in that marketplace as far as I can tell. I'd just like to see them remain there, and not become just another 'blue run' with a nice view.
WB
>> Edited by tvrolet on Thursday 17th February 14:23
DJC said:
To drive a Tiv at speed in wet or dry you follow exactly the same rules as you do with any other lwt roadster. A Tiv will not bite you anymore than anything else will if you obey the rules and the rules are exactly the same as they have been for traditional roadsters for the last 100yrs.
Yes and no - a TVR is at the more extreme end of the power/weight ratio, and will misbehave in circumstances that other RWD cars may not - and this may catch out former drivers of lower powered RWD cars.
Being able to generate wheelspin at 80mph in the dry is fine, as long as you are expecting it...
I undertake driver training regularly as I am not arrogant enough to believe I know it all. Even experienced police driving instructors I know update their skills.
I have owned some very silly FWD and RWD machinery and whilst the TVR is undoubtedly the quickest in a straight line it's lack of suspension compliance on our UK roads can occasionally induce the odd interesting moment, which with driver training I at least feel more able to tackle.
Track driving is different skill set and I know many 'press-on' road drivers who are absolutely useless on the track.
I now have adjustable traction control on the TVR simply so that their is safety net there when I wish to either extend the vehicle or when I want some additional inbuilt safety not provided by the manufacturer (that and the fact it greatly adds to control on thr track).
I do not feel my manhood is challenged by such devices as I also have an 'off' switch.
Richard
I have owned some very silly FWD and RWD machinery and whilst the TVR is undoubtedly the quickest in a straight line it's lack of suspension compliance on our UK roads can occasionally induce the odd interesting moment, which with driver training I at least feel more able to tackle.
Track driving is different skill set and I know many 'press-on' road drivers who are absolutely useless on the track.
I now have adjustable traction control on the TVR simply so that their is safety net there when I wish to either extend the vehicle or when I want some additional inbuilt safety not provided by the manufacturer (that and the fact it greatly adds to control on thr track).
I do not feel my manhood is challenged by such devices as I also have an 'off' switch.
Richard
When we bought our Griff, neither of us had any rear wheel drive car experience. However, I've got a lot of experience on motorbikes, so I treat the Griff like I would a powerful motorbike, easy on the power, try to be as smooth as possible. I've done a half day and a full day Ride/Drive, and have another full day booked in mid-march. Through the EMTVRCC I've been lucky to have a go in a FWD and a RWD car on the Lincs Police Skid pan.
I treat the car with respect, and expect to be put through a hedge if I drive it like a prat. Just like I would with a motorbike.
I treat the car with respect, and expect to be put through a hedge if I drive it like a prat. Just like I would with a motorbike.
You are all missing the original poster's point I think.
Nearly everyone new who comes on here mentions getting driver training - usually as a result of a 'what upgrades are good?' thread. How do you know that the person needs training? Why can't they upgrade their brakes if they want to before getting training? Why can't you demonstrate common sense and use less right foot in damp/wet conditions?
I'm not having a rant, just that I agree with a lot of people who buy these cars and then think that the car owns them rather than they are the master. If they feel they are not up to driving the car, why buy it?
Perhaps for the same reason a chav buys a pitbull rather than a labrador - it looks the part.
Nearly everyone new who comes on here mentions getting driver training - usually as a result of a 'what upgrades are good?' thread. How do you know that the person needs training? Why can't they upgrade their brakes if they want to before getting training? Why can't you demonstrate common sense and use less right foot in damp/wet conditions?
I'm not having a rant, just that I agree with a lot of people who buy these cars and then think that the car owns them rather than they are the master. If they feel they are not up to driving the car, why buy it?
Perhaps for the same reason a chav buys a pitbull rather than a labrador - it looks the part.
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