The Ocean View - Buying Guide.
Discussion
I hope this will be of use to people in a similar position to me, ie not a high earner (24K) not prepared to run 2 cars, so must use the TVR every day.
Chimeara/Griff: My conclusion is that these cars can be run successfully by a person like me. Their great advantage is that few of the componants are made by TVR themselves, and are therefore well proven and generally reliable. My first TVR was a 4.0 Chim, if your on a budget this is the one to buy, they are fast enough for any but the most power crazed and make the right noise. My advice is the specifically go for a high mileage example, the real killer for them is being left in the garage unused. Most buyers think - incorrectly - that they should buy a low mileage car. As a result high mileage ones are cheaper. My first TVR - a 4.0 Chim with 88K on the clock - gave me a lot of pleasure and was very reliable, I used it all through the winter for everything. I was in the first flush of enthusiasm so I was able to overlook its flaws as a daily driver:
1) The noise is great but it gets on your T*ts eventually.
2) Trim fit and finish is poor (because its done by TVR themselves).
3) Electrical items fail regularly
4) The roof is a pain in the but, and eventually you will not be bothered to keep puting it up and down and will therefore leave it up.
5) Paintwork chips with ridiculous ease.
Despite these floors if your umming and areing about buying your first TVR then go for it, you probably wont regret it.
Cerbera: As many of you probably know, I have owned a S6 for nearly 2 years now. It now has a seized engine and I am about to lose £14,000 on it when it gets sold for scrap. Before you all add this to your list of S6 failures I should say that it is not the normal "top end" failure. For some reason it appears to have lost oil flow. Again I believe the problem stems from lack of use, I have been working away from home in the week with a hire car as a result the car was not used, also it speant 6 months having a body repair after some dozy tart reversed into it. I reiterate if you plan to only use it at weekends it will cause you endless trouble and as everything costs at least twice as much as a chim this is bad news. My conclusion is that you need to be loaded to run a Cerbera I would say £40000 or more. Sadly too many componants are made by TVR themselves, they overreached themselves. Flaws:
1) Electrical faults (many more things to go wrong on a Cerb - for instance door opening switches. If you want to see the quality of Cerbera electrics look on the shelf above the Fuel tank, looks like everything camr from RS.
2) Rough running when cold.
3) Lets be honest, every journey you start you are thinking - will it get there, AJP or S6
4) Very expensive to repair/service.
My advice dont buy one unless mega rich. This extends to Tuscans and all modern TVRs. Stick to Chim/Griff and you will be happy - for a year or two. Then when its out your system get a proper car that you wont have to worry about and leave TVR to the diehards. Me Im Alfa 147 GTA bound. The Alfa V6 is the best engine ever made.
Ocean1
>>> Edited by ocean1 on Friday 25th February 10:32
Chimeara/Griff: My conclusion is that these cars can be run successfully by a person like me. Their great advantage is that few of the componants are made by TVR themselves, and are therefore well proven and generally reliable. My first TVR was a 4.0 Chim, if your on a budget this is the one to buy, they are fast enough for any but the most power crazed and make the right noise. My advice is the specifically go for a high mileage example, the real killer for them is being left in the garage unused. Most buyers think - incorrectly - that they should buy a low mileage car. As a result high mileage ones are cheaper. My first TVR - a 4.0 Chim with 88K on the clock - gave me a lot of pleasure and was very reliable, I used it all through the winter for everything. I was in the first flush of enthusiasm so I was able to overlook its flaws as a daily driver:
1) The noise is great but it gets on your T*ts eventually.
2) Trim fit and finish is poor (because its done by TVR themselves).
3) Electrical items fail regularly
4) The roof is a pain in the but, and eventually you will not be bothered to keep puting it up and down and will therefore leave it up.
5) Paintwork chips with ridiculous ease.
Despite these floors if your umming and areing about buying your first TVR then go for it, you probably wont regret it.
Cerbera: As many of you probably know, I have owned a S6 for nearly 2 years now. It now has a seized engine and I am about to lose £14,000 on it when it gets sold for scrap. Before you all add this to your list of S6 failures I should say that it is not the normal "top end" failure. For some reason it appears to have lost oil flow. Again I believe the problem stems from lack of use, I have been working away from home in the week with a hire car as a result the car was not used, also it speant 6 months having a body repair after some dozy tart reversed into it. I reiterate if you plan to only use it at weekends it will cause you endless trouble and as everything costs at least twice as much as a chim this is bad news. My conclusion is that you need to be loaded to run a Cerbera I would say £40000 or more. Sadly too many componants are made by TVR themselves, they overreached themselves. Flaws:
1) Electrical faults (many more things to go wrong on a Cerb - for instance door opening switches. If you want to see the quality of Cerbera electrics look on the shelf above the Fuel tank, looks like everything camr from RS.
2) Rough running when cold.
3) Lets be honest, every journey you start you are thinking - will it get there, AJP or S6
4) Very expensive to repair/service.
My advice dont buy one unless mega rich. This extends to Tuscans and all modern TVRs. Stick to Chim/Griff and you will be happy - for a year or two. Then when its out your system get a proper car that you wont have to worry about and leave TVR to the diehards. Me Im Alfa 147 GTA bound. The Alfa V6 is the best engine ever made.
Ocean1
>>> Edited by ocean1 on Friday 25th February 10:32
Nick,
Having read your posts, It's clear (to me) that you're (quite understandably) on a downer on TVR at the moment.
Yours posts seem to fluctuate between being wildly happy to depressed, and not much inbetween.
Perhaps writing a buying guide type report should wait until you've had time to reflect on your ownership experience (and perhaps re-read your posts about how great fluffy, and the TVR designed engine are, such as "a perfectly good car with a superb engine that has never given any trouble").
I've every sympathy for your current predicament and I agree that to run a supercar you need to have a decent amount of disposable income (3k per year - AT LEAST on a Cerbera).
I'm sure someone earning in excess of both figures you mention could still find themselves struggling if they get a 'bad car'.
I hope you enjoy the Alfa and it provides more cost effective and exciting motoring.
D
>> Edited by _DeeJay_ on Friday 25th February 10:51
Having read your posts, It's clear (to me) that you're (quite understandably) on a downer on TVR at the moment.
Yours posts seem to fluctuate between being wildly happy to depressed, and not much inbetween.
Perhaps writing a buying guide type report should wait until you've had time to reflect on your ownership experience (and perhaps re-read your posts about how great fluffy, and the TVR designed engine are, such as "a perfectly good car with a superb engine that has never given any trouble").
I've every sympathy for your current predicament and I agree that to run a supercar you need to have a decent amount of disposable income (3k per year - AT LEAST on a Cerbera).
I'm sure someone earning in excess of both figures you mention could still find themselves struggling if they get a 'bad car'.
I hope you enjoy the Alfa and it provides more cost effective and exciting motoring.
D
>> Edited by _DeeJay_ on Friday 25th February 10:51
Well you've changed your tune .. for the last two years you've slated everyone who's had a pop at you for buying a Sp6 and you've defended them with blind faith.
. but please re-edit your post to take out the references to ajp8 cerbies and RS, which we all know are superb machines and RS are a great electrical retailer
. but please re-edit your post to take out the references to ajp8 cerbies and RS, which we all know are superb machines and RS are a great electrical retailer
ocean1 said:
It now has a seized engine and I am about to lose £14,000 on it when it gets sold for scrap.
OK - it was on the market for £16K. A comprehensive S6 rebuild by Power is what - 5-6K? Either you are working from a very high number that you assumedly paid 2 years ago for the car at a main dealer's (and thus you are unrealistic in assuming no 'normal' deprectiation) OR you're seriously letting a good Cerbie minus working engine go for £2K.
In which case - where do I send the cheque?
My take:
A long time ago, the standard model for how much of your income should go on any one thing was created...
* Value of house = approx 3 years salary (OK, so that one's now screwed a bit in the UK)
* Cash in the bank = 3 months salary
* Etc. = Etc.
* Value of car = 6 months salary (assuming something with standard depreciation & servicing costs)
Now, if it's your hobby, then I guess that adding in your "hobby" money, too is all good. So, maybe 60%. Me, I live by that 50% rule... you can never really get stung then. If it was my ultimate dream, and I was willing to forego other things in life, I could afford (with the aid of finance) a second hand Gallardo. But, I know it would end in tears and bankruptcy...
If, however, you buy a car that probably cost in-the-twenties on a salary itself in the low twenties, given that it's one with particularly high maintenance costs, then any major failure is going to be a stretch to deal with. If not the breaking point - especially if it's an only car.
Not having a go at Ocean - you bought the car you wanted, bud, and made the most of it for a fairly long time (in Tiv terms). Be proud of the fact you've owned a virtual supercar in your life. Not many people can say that. It's just one of those things that happens fairly regularly (and TVRs aren't the only brand - I've seen it happen to people with 'raris, Jags, even Alfas!)
J_S_G
(I'm an author, ner-ni-ner-ni-ner-ner
)
>> Edited by J_S_G on Friday 25th February 11:53
A long time ago, the standard model for how much of your income should go on any one thing was created...
* Value of house = approx 3 years salary (OK, so that one's now screwed a bit in the UK)
* Cash in the bank = 3 months salary
* Etc. = Etc.
* Value of car = 6 months salary (assuming something with standard depreciation & servicing costs)
Now, if it's your hobby, then I guess that adding in your "hobby" money, too is all good. So, maybe 60%. Me, I live by that 50% rule... you can never really get stung then. If it was my ultimate dream, and I was willing to forego other things in life, I could afford (with the aid of finance) a second hand Gallardo. But, I know it would end in tears and bankruptcy...
If, however, you buy a car that probably cost in-the-twenties on a salary itself in the low twenties, given that it's one with particularly high maintenance costs, then any major failure is going to be a stretch to deal with. If not the breaking point - especially if it's an only car.
Not having a go at Ocean - you bought the car you wanted, bud, and made the most of it for a fairly long time (in Tiv terms). Be proud of the fact you've owned a virtual supercar in your life. Not many people can say that. It's just one of those things that happens fairly regularly (and TVRs aren't the only brand - I've seen it happen to people with 'raris, Jags, even Alfas!)
richb said:
Anyone who signs off, journalistic style as "Ocean1"
J_S_G
(I'm an author, ner-ni-ner-ni-ner-ner
) >> Edited by J_S_G on Friday 25th February 11:53
Fair enough, J_S_G - but I would make a significant distinction between a car bought from money in the bank or off a loan...
To me, a Tiv would be an indulgence and always be run next to a car I can count on to bring me to work and back (or in case it doesn't, can be repaired or replaced without taking a second mortgage). I couldn't ever justify taking out a loan on one.
But conversely, if I'd saved say £2K a year over a decade on a 20K income, I wouldn't see why I should not spend the £20K (although realistically, I'd probably keep 3-4K in the bank which would go a long way to pay for unforeseen events like what Ocean is going through now...).
>> Edited by 900T-R on Friday 25th February 11:56
To me, a Tiv would be an indulgence and always be run next to a car I can count on to bring me to work and back (or in case it doesn't, can be repaired or replaced without taking a second mortgage). I couldn't ever justify taking out a loan on one.
But conversely, if I'd saved say £2K a year over a decade on a 20K income, I wouldn't see why I should not spend the £20K (although realistically, I'd probably keep 3-4K in the bank which would go a long way to pay for unforeseen events like what Ocean is going through now...).
>> Edited by 900T-R on Friday 25th February 11:56
900T-R said:
You ran a Chim and a Cerbie and you earn 24k? Do you live with your mum?
What's the median income in the UK, then? Here in NL it's the equivalent of £20K gross. A single bloke earning 25ish would be well off, here.
>> Edited by 900T-R on Friday 25th February 11:46
Its around £22K
I have absolutely no idea how you even came close to running a TVR on £24K
You're either lying to us, the taxman or you are some kind of miracle worker.
I struggled to run one and couldnt justify another on a significant chunk over £24K!
joospeed said:
Well you've changed your tune .. for the last two years you've slated everyone who's had a pop at you for buying a Sp6 and you've defended them with blind faith.
. but please re-edit your post to take out the references to ajp8 cerbies and RS, which we all know are superb machines and RS are a great electrical retailer
nothing new there though eh.. it's a common sentiment on here as has been said time and time again.. blindness to faults if you've never had them yourself seems a common way of thinking amongst some owners.
never understood that myself. It's like claiming fags are safe as you have been 'smoking 60 a day and are 70 year old'. so what. go on a statistics 101. etc. etc.
900T-R said:
Fair enough, J_S_G - but I would make a significant distinction between a car bought from money in the bank or off a loan...
To me, a Tiv would be an indulgence and always be run next to a car I can count on to bring me to work and back (or in case it doesn't, can be repaired or replaced without taking a second mortgage). I couldn't ever justify taking out a loan on one.
But conversely, if I'd saved say £2K a year over a decade on a 20K income, I wouldn't see why I should not spend the £20K (although realistically, I'd probably keep 3-4K in the bank which would go a long way to pay for unforeseen events like what Ocean is going through now...).
Agree completely; money in the bank is a different thing entirely. But, unless there's also money in the bank for all the running costs, it'll end in tears - the numbers just won't stack up...
(I think we're saying the same thing)
J_S_G said:
My take:
J_S_G
(I'm an author, ner-ni-ner-ni-ner-ner
>> Edited by J_S_G on Friday 25th February 11:53
come on then... which of these are you:
www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/ref=sr_sp_go_as/026-9127430-8294869
stu
J_S_G said:
(I think we're saying the same thing)
Yes - I think we are.
Although one should be able to pay for 'normal' running costs with ease from ones regular budget, in the case of running the kind of car we're talking about here (be it a Cerbie, an older Porsche/'Rarri, M-series Beemer or whatever), it pays off to include a distress fund in your purchase budget - or be prepared to lay up the car for an extended period when something unforeseen happens.
All IMO, usual disclaimers apply.
Plotloss said:
Its around £22K
I have absolutely no idea how you even came close to running a TVR on £24K
You're either lying to us, the taxman or you are some kind of miracle worker.
I struggled to run one and couldnt justify another on a significant chunk over £24K!
it's over 25K actually.
I dunno, I had a 12K 300zx when I was earning that . And as James says that's about right (50% salary). And 12K would get you a griff or a chim. don't cost any more to run than a 300zx. And no, I didn't live with my mum then either.
And I considered increasing my morgage at the time (1998) to get a NSX for 20K (on the grounds it wouldn't depreciate much.. which turned out to have been true). So.. that would even have been possible.
It depends how much you want it don't it.
I remember seeing a bloke on the tele that had a miura in a lock up. He lived in a council house. Saved every penny he had for the miura. Couldn't afford to tax it, fill it with petrol or anything but he didn't regret it for a second.
still, he was probably mental.
stu
powerlord said:
J_S_G said:
J_S_G
(I'm an author, ner-ni-ner-ni-ner-ner
come on then... which of these are you:
<a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/ref=sr_sp_go_as/026-9127430-8294869">www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/ref=sr_sp_go_as/026-9127430-8294869</a>
stu
Your link doesn't work.
However, top right on this one (man, I look young there!): www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1861007558
(There were originally eight authors, but the other guys on the top row ate them
) >> Edited by J_S_G on Friday 25th February 12:15
Interesting post, and a few wild quandaries thrown up by dear old Mr Oceanis Uno.
I'd have to agree wholeheartedly. Up to a point.
My Chim400 was faultless, run every day in all kinds of weather, and distpatched 10,000 miles in 8 months quite happily. The roof? Well that got easier with practice, and was down whenever it wasn't raining (thank god for Lowe Alpine fleeces!). As for the noise, well I had the baffles taken out of the silencer as she wasn't loud enough for me....
On to the Cerbera.... and that's a whole different kettle of fish, and a duplicitous can of worms - she's a AJP-fanged monster. She still goes out no matter the weather, she is my daily driver (but as previous threads have said, it's not quite the same if you can pinch your wifes car... however you can't if she needs it so there!) Frankly the running costs have horrified me. Fuel consumption is 6-8mpg worse than the Chim, and thus far has cost me £3k to put right after previous owner neglect, plus a 6k service. But in three months of ownership she's down 5000 miles, and thus far has stranded me twice - both times because I wasn't paying attention and ran out of fuel! 
So is there a moral to this story? Is there a lesson in ownership? Would I buy another.
No, possibly, and f
k YES!
The lesson? Walk in with your eyes open. End of lesson. There cannot be a single piece of advice more all-encompassing than this. They break down, they're not hewn out of an Audi-style block of granite, they'll cost a fortune to run and maintain, and they'll let you down when you least want them to. Well frankly that covers all Astons, Ferraris, Porsches (IMHO) Lambos, Paganis and anything else that has similar cachet, performace and pedestrian-stopping looks. Just because you can buy one for £12k doesn't mean it's like a brand new Vuaxhall Corsa. It's a supercar, plain and simple.
Understand this, bear it in mind, and be aware of it at all times, and yes, then you can forgive its failings - love it when it works, shout and wail when it doesn't, then open your moth eaten wallet to invite it to come and graze on your greenbacks. Ignore it at your peril.
My wife is forever bending my ear about the cost of ownership - pointing out how much I've spent on petrol this month, "it's going to the garage AGAIN?!", or generally eulagising about he merits of her brand new warranteed car. She complains that taking it to tracks only exacerbates the issues, costing yet more in suspension set up, stone chip resprays and new tyres.
But then she came to a trackday....
"I have never seen you so happy and carefree..."
"You really love this don't you..."
"You swear at it, you moan about it, but nothing will stop you loving that car will it..."
In an afternoons pitwall observation, she saw the attraction. She admits it does nothing for her, she has no desire to drive it, been seen in it, let alone pay to run it. But the knowledge that it puts a smile on my face after a hard working day is enough for her. And frankly it's enough for me.
I knew it would cost an arm and several legs. I knew it wouldn't be plain sailing. I knew a TVR, nay any TVR would be a blessing and a curse. So why do I do it? Because I can, because I want to, and because she makes me smile.
So tht brings me to Oceans final point. Money. You've either got it or you ain't? No way. What you have got is yours to do with as you will - even a billionaire doesn't have a bottomless pit of cash, and someday being too profligate will expose those depths. Yes were lucky that we're both in well paid jobs, have a nice house and the odd holiday once a year.
But do we have Sky? No thanks - I'm not paying £40pm for hundreds of channels I don't have time to watch! Does my wife have hundreds of Gucci handbags? Yeuch no thanks!
She does however have lots of Rigby & Pellar underwear.
And Russell & Bromley footwear.
Me? I am rather partial to Barker's Brogues. And handmade English suits. And TVRs.
So that's where I spend what money I have. Could I go back to something less exciting and stressful? Probably, but not yet thankyou.
(Oh God, it's another of my essay posts isn't it?!)
I'd have to agree wholeheartedly. Up to a point.
My Chim400 was faultless, run every day in all kinds of weather, and distpatched 10,000 miles in 8 months quite happily. The roof? Well that got easier with practice, and was down whenever it wasn't raining (thank god for Lowe Alpine fleeces!). As for the noise, well I had the baffles taken out of the silencer as she wasn't loud enough for me....
On to the Cerbera.... and that's a whole different kettle of fish, and a duplicitous can of worms - she's a AJP-fanged monster. She still goes out no matter the weather, she is my daily driver (but as previous threads have said, it's not quite the same if you can pinch your wifes car... however you can't if she needs it so there!
) Frankly the running costs have horrified me. Fuel consumption is 6-8mpg worse than the Chim, and thus far has cost me £3k to put right after previous owner neglect, plus a 6k service. But in three months of ownership she's down 5000 miles, and thus far has stranded me twice - both times because I wasn't paying attention and ran out of fuel! So is there a moral to this story? Is there a lesson in ownership? Would I buy another.
No, possibly, and f
k YES! The lesson? Walk in with your eyes open. End of lesson. There cannot be a single piece of advice more all-encompassing than this. They break down, they're not hewn out of an Audi-style block of granite, they'll cost a fortune to run and maintain, and they'll let you down when you least want them to. Well frankly that covers all Astons, Ferraris, Porsches (IMHO) Lambos, Paganis and anything else that has similar cachet, performace and pedestrian-stopping looks. Just because you can buy one for £12k doesn't mean it's like a brand new Vuaxhall Corsa. It's a supercar, plain and simple.
Understand this, bear it in mind, and be aware of it at all times, and yes, then you can forgive its failings - love it when it works, shout and wail when it doesn't, then open your moth eaten wallet to invite it to come and graze on your greenbacks. Ignore it at your peril.
My wife is forever bending my ear about the cost of ownership - pointing out how much I've spent on petrol this month, "it's going to the garage AGAIN?!", or generally eulagising about he merits of her brand new warranteed car. She complains that taking it to tracks only exacerbates the issues, costing yet more in suspension set up, stone chip resprays and new tyres.
But then she came to a trackday....
"I have never seen you so happy and carefree..."
"You really love this don't you..."
"You swear at it, you moan about it, but nothing will stop you loving that car will it..."
In an afternoons pitwall observation, she saw the attraction. She admits it does nothing for her, she has no desire to drive it, been seen in it, let alone pay to run it. But the knowledge that it puts a smile on my face after a hard working day is enough for her. And frankly it's enough for me.
I knew it would cost an arm and several legs. I knew it wouldn't be plain sailing. I knew a TVR, nay any TVR would be a blessing and a curse. So why do I do it? Because I can, because I want to, and because she makes me smile.
So tht brings me to Oceans final point. Money. You've either got it or you ain't? No way. What you have got is yours to do with as you will - even a billionaire doesn't have a bottomless pit of cash, and someday being too profligate will expose those depths. Yes were lucky that we're both in well paid jobs, have a nice house and the odd holiday once a year.
But do we have Sky? No thanks - I'm not paying £40pm for hundreds of channels I don't have time to watch! Does my wife have hundreds of Gucci handbags? Yeuch no thanks!
She does however have lots of Rigby & Pellar underwear.
And Russell & Bromley footwear. Me? I am rather partial to Barker's Brogues. And handmade English suits. And TVRs.
So that's where I spend what money I have. Could I go back to something less exciting and stressful? Probably, but not yet thankyou.
(Oh God, it's another of my essay posts isn't it?!)
I've had TVR's for years and they have always been 2nd cars. The only faults with any of them (S1/S2/V8S?Griff 500) was me. The old adaged "you get what you pay for" springs to mind. Ferrari performance for 1/3 the price so some things won't be perfect.
As for Alfa I have a 147 and its a glorious car that has let me down so many times I would whole heartedly advice someone never to buy one. I got mine new 14 months ago and so far it has had 5 weeks off the road, the clutch is slipping, the head required regrinding, a new thermostat, new injectors etc etc. The servicing garage is spot on but Fiat UK are awful. I was in a Nissan Micra travelling 500 Miles a week whilst it was off the road and they couldn't be bothered to talk or reason with me. Don't get one unless it is very (and I maen VERY) cheap. Shame as the cars are lovely to drive.
As for Alfa I have a 147 and its a glorious car that has let me down so many times I would whole heartedly advice someone never to buy one. I got mine new 14 months ago and so far it has had 5 weeks off the road, the clutch is slipping, the head required regrinding, a new thermostat, new injectors etc etc. The servicing garage is spot on but Fiat UK are awful. I was in a Nissan Micra travelling 500 Miles a week whilst it was off the road and they couldn't be bothered to talk or reason with me. Don't get one unless it is very (and I maen VERY) cheap. Shame as the cars are lovely to drive.
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