0-60 in 2.2 seconds
Discussion
A new potential client just called me, he has an automotive related business, and was telling me about his suped up renault which gets to 60 in around 2.2 seconds 
3 litres in the back, a 2 litre engine in the front, yes he has nos and he sounds like a nice bloke too with pride in his mods and achievement.
Ive got loads of questions... Can a car be road leal with 2 enignes, or likely that his motor is only driven at shows (he did mention shows) and is it likely that TVR will ever develop a car which would be nearly as quick without nos, perhaps close to the 3.2 0-60 time? As factory standard in years to come?
Just how much power does Nos give an engine, and does having 2 engines create more problems than the extra power is likely to be worth? It sounds like a fun project, but engines require that nos is used sparingly. Is it hard to hook 2 clutches and engines up to one pedal
Yep, Id like another AJP in the boot
wouldnt we all, but im more curious than anything. Think I'll leave these kinds of projects to the likes of Ash 
If this thread is going to evolve in any particular direction, I would be keen to hear thoughts of the future. What kinds of 0-60 times TVR are likely to be abchieving in 6 or 7 years. Does anyone know whether more TVR's are likely to jump upon the more expensive carbon fibre bandwagon or would TVR be creating a smaller market for themselves in doing so, re: price?
3 litres in the back, a 2 litre engine in the front, yes he has nos and he sounds like a nice bloke too with pride in his mods and achievement. Ive got loads of questions... Can a car be road leal with 2 enignes, or likely that his motor is only driven at shows (he did mention shows) and is it likely that TVR will ever develop a car which would be nearly as quick without nos, perhaps close to the 3.2 0-60 time? As factory standard in years to come?
Just how much power does Nos give an engine, and does having 2 engines create more problems than the extra power is likely to be worth? It sounds like a fun project, but engines require that nos is used sparingly. Is it hard to hook 2 clutches and engines up to one pedal
Yep, Id like another AJP in the boot
wouldnt we all, but im more curious than anything. Think I'll leave these kinds of projects to the likes of Ash If this thread is going to evolve in any particular direction, I would be keen to hear thoughts of the future. What kinds of 0-60 times TVR are likely to be abchieving in 6 or 7 years. Does anyone know whether more TVR's are likely to jump upon the more expensive carbon fibre bandwagon or would TVR be creating a smaller market for themselves in doing so, re: price?
No.
In this country a car cannot have 2 'seperate' engines driving the wheels and be road legal.
Of course, if he can disconnect one, then it could be road legal if only 1 engine is driving the wheels.
As for the NOS, well thats more of a religous thing. Yes it can increase power for as long as its fed into the cylinder, and depending on the size of jets, it will give a moderate boost - but can cause significant damage.
As for TVR doing anything, well I doubt they will make a twin-engined car - and they always threaten to produce the speed-12, but as far as I know, you still cant buy one..
>> Edited by fidgits on Tuesday 5th April 14:45
In this country a car cannot have 2 'seperate' engines driving the wheels and be road legal.
Of course, if he can disconnect one, then it could be road legal if only 1 engine is driving the wheels.
As for the NOS, well thats more of a religous thing. Yes it can increase power for as long as its fed into the cylinder, and depending on the size of jets, it will give a moderate boost - but can cause significant damage.
As for TVR doing anything, well I doubt they will make a twin-engined car - and they always threaten to produce the speed-12, but as far as I know, you still cant buy one..
>> Edited by fidgits on Tuesday 5th April 14:45
fidgits said:
No.
In this country a car cannot have 2 'seperate' engines driving the wheels and be road legal.
Of course, if he can disconnect one, then it could be road legal if only 1 engine is driving the wheels.
As for the NOS, well thats more of a religous thing. Yes it can increase power for as long as its fed into the cylinder, and depending on the size of jets, it will give a moderate boost - but can cause significant damage.
As for TVR doing anything, well I doubt they will make a twin-engined car - and they always threaten to produce the speed-12, but as far as I know, you still cant buy one..
>> Edited by fidgits on Tuesday 5th April 14:45
Not even with a shared transmission?
Z Cars make a number of cars powered by two engines that are road legal...
scared but happy said:He's emailing some pics over this week. I told him to check out PH, will be speaking to him more in time and with luck he'll join the ranks so we can all have a natter and ask him questions.
Aggggggh. Can it stick to 30? Tell them to register and post a piccy. I expect many wish to see this beast!
fidgits said:
No.
In this country a car cannot have 2 'seperate' engines driving the wheels and be road legal.
Rubbish!
Regal autosport has a twin engined 700bhp+ Nova
Dubsport have a twin VR6 engined mark 2 golf with over 600bhp.
And the bloke that does all the high powered Audi's has a Audi 80 twin engined motor too.
Every one of them is road legal and the two top ones have been seen on the road driving around while being tested or part of a photo shoot for some of the mags!
Theres no reason a twin engined car can't be on the road if both engines are able to pass the mot regs and the car is road worthy.
fidgits said:Not strictly true, one was sold and is now in private ownership. www.Speed12.info
As for TVR doing anything, well I doubt they will make a twin-engined car - and they always threaten to produce the speed-12, but as far as I know, you still cant buy one.
well, thats where the grey area comes in.
hence my 'seperate' comment.
As with Hybrid cars - which have 2 engines (one petrol one electric) these 'combine' the engines drive - and hence are legal.
So, theoretically, if you had 2 petrol engines, and combined the drive, then perhaps that would work - I honestly dont know enough at this point to give a straight answer..
hence my 'seperate' comment.
As with Hybrid cars - which have 2 engines (one petrol one electric) these 'combine' the engines drive - and hence are legal.
So, theoretically, if you had 2 petrol engines, and combined the drive, then perhaps that would work - I honestly dont know enough at this point to give a straight answer..
UKBoB said:
Ive got loads of questions... Can a car be road leal with 2 enignes
Yes it can be road legal. As long as it can pass the SVA or extended SVA (whatever is relevant) it is perfectly reasonable. Dont forget that you have a class of dragsters which are road legal and run over 800BHP! However, chances are that it would be a pig and not easy. Most of the two engined cars I have seen are demo-beds only....
UKBoB said:
is it likely that TVR will ever develop a car which would be nearly as quick without nos, perhaps close to the 3.2 0-60 time?
Tough call - to get down to that type of figure you need to have a massive power to weight ratio. Caterham have done this, but at a real compromise on comfort. Other than that, you are talking exotic materials and racecar tech like a Bugati or McLaren F1.... costs escallate massively.....
UKBoB said:
Just how much power does Nos give an engine, and does having 2 engines create more problems than the extra power is likely to be worth?
Depends on how much NOS you shove in. Typical boosts (depending on strength of block) are 50, 100 and even 200BHP "shots". Can be cost effective and simple, but when you look for major power increase you have all of the other "stuff" to deal with. More often than not a lower amount of "shot" means it can be used more frequently and more reliably.... you dont want to rebuild an engine frequently.
UKBoB said:
I would be keen to hear thoughts of the future. What kinds of 0-60 times TVR are likely to be abchieving in 6 or 7 years.
Unlikely. We getting close to the limit now. Grip, tyres, performance etc means 60 in 4 and 100 in 10 is damn quick. Getting below this is going to be hard and VERY expensive. Power to weight again and to loose the weight you loose the comfort and hence drivability for every day cars. Take a look at the Ferrari F430 - fastest thing they have done for a decent price, but unlikely to get any faster in the next version (and its currently the pinnacle of automotive development!).
UKBoB said:
Does anyone know whether more TVR's are likely to jump upon the more expensive carbon fibre bandwagon or would TVR be creating a smaller market for themselves in doing so, re: price?
Cost. CF is hugely expensive. TVR do some CF special bodies and have developed the Ester (??) bodies which are stronger and lighter than GRP, but its still more expensive. CF needs specialist building techniques, curing and production methods. Also, cost of repairs would be huge as it would only be a limited number of people who could fix it (Williams, BAR etc?). Its all about cost.
What I can see is niche high performance models with trackday mods and light bodies. But all manufacturers are into volume to get some form of profit from the car. To do this they have to appeal to a wider audience and this naturally dilutes the raw performance.
Market research from the major manufacturers suggest there is a big enough market for the £50k-£150k market (hence proliferation of new models), but its still a limited size. Cant launch a car into this area as a specialist given what we have currently available. Dont forget that getting a £60k car currently will cost you £1000 a month on PCP / HP.... not many people can afford that!!!
cerber450 said:
No.
In this country a car cannot have 2 'seperate' engines driving the wheels and be road legal.
Rubbish!
Regal autosport has a twin engined 700bhp+ Nova
Dubsport have a twin VR6 engined mark 2 golf with over 600bhp.
And the bloke that does all the high powered Audi's has a Audi 80 twin engined motor too.
Every one of them is road legal and the two top ones have been seen on the road driving around while being tested or part of a photo shoot for some of the mags!
Theres no reason a twin engined car can't be on the road if both engines are able to pass the mot regs and the car is road worthy.
There's also the twin engined Golf coupe (Audi TT) that some nutters in Germany have done. 2 turbo charged engines, 1 front, 1 back. Front ones for front wheels, rears for rears. Was faster than a Pagini and the only car to crak 200mph on the autobhan in a supplementary feature.
[quote=someone who doesn't know 4wd]
How is it even possible, when F1 cars barely achieve those speeds, and have slicks as wide as all our arses put together
[quote]
For 2.2 secs in a road car on regular tyres you'll need 4wd. Twin engine car can do this easily, as with the Audi above. Only problem is synchronising the throttles so that they both push out the same power
Rob
UKBoB said:
Just how much power does Nos give an engine, and does having 2 engines create more problems than the extra power is likely to be worth? It sounds like a fun project, but engines require that nos is used sparingly. Is it hard to hook 2 clutches and engines up to one pedal
To answer the NOS question there are 2 stage kits available that will give over 1500bhp extra for the serious draggers.
The twin engines are set up is like most 4 wheel drive cars with slightly more power going to the rear.
2 clutches and 2 accelerators require a double bracket at the pedal position and then both can be set up independent of each other.
The best bit is all the power 4 wheel drive and weight over all wheels to give the traction.
The Nova does 0-60 in 2.8s and the golf is around 3.0s. However the 1/4 miles are still only around the 11s mark as both of the cars are using standard gearing.
If a car can achieve 0-60 in 4 seconds, with linear acceleration, it should be able to hit 100 in a little over 6 1/2 seconds. I realise that wind resistance starts to take effect, but if you've got the traction to accelerate 60mph in 4 seconds, you've got it from whatever speed you start from.
chimhunter said:
There's also the twin engined Golf coupe (Audi TT) that some nutters in Germany have done. 2 turbo charged engines, 1 front, 1 back. Front ones for front wheels, rears for rears. Was faster than a Pagini and the only car to crak 200mph on the autobhan in a supplementary feature.
Rob
Was that the yellow one?
Years ago, the countache and testarossa reached 60 in over 5 seconds. They cost double what a TVR costs (well, approximately), without being in the super-super-expensive McLarren league either. I wondered if, without major price hikes, another 7 models later TVR might bettering the sagaris's 3.7 time down, praps closer to 3.2.
chimhunter said:What was going through my mind at the time of writing was the lambos with 4WD, more CC's, more bhp, but slower 0-60 times. Albeit the lambos dont come with nos as standard
For 2.2 secs in a road car on regular tyres you'll need 4wd. Twin engine car can do this easily, as with the Audi above. Only problem is synchronising the throttles so that they both push out the same power
Rob
I also recall the chap saying he had a turbo(s?) fitted. So then, why is a relault with less cc and bhp faster than a lambo. Because of Nos?cerber450 said:
There's also the twin engined Golf coupe (Audi TT) that some nutters in Germany have done. 2 turbo charged engines, 1 front, 1 back. Front ones for front wheels, rears for rears. Was faster than a Pagini and the only car to crak 200mph on the autobhan in a supplementary feature.
Rob
Was that the yellow one?
MTM BiMoto
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