Originality question
Discussion
Because of personal circumstances i have been reading hours and hours worth of threads regarding putting different engines and upgrades into TVRs, the argument of originality / performance / reliability. There seemed to be two basic trains of thought..the originality mob seem to advocate mods to cars if TVR used that particular make of engine at some point.. the change it mob, say its the engine that TVR should of used and if they had..might not of gone bust.
Now im wondering with the introduction of the new 500bhp Griff sporting a Cosworth engine, if the Originality crowd will be happy to see Speed 6 powered cars with Cosworth transplants? or will that still be a no no?
Ive also noticed that alot of the nay sayers mod their cars with exhausts and headlight changes, im a bit confused as to were they draw the line as to where originality starts and ends?
Opinions please..................
Now im wondering with the introduction of the new 500bhp Griff sporting a Cosworth engine, if the Originality crowd will be happy to see Speed 6 powered cars with Cosworth transplants? or will that still be a no no?
Ive also noticed that alot of the nay sayers mod their cars with exhausts and headlight changes, im a bit confused as to were they draw the line as to where originality starts and ends?
Opinions please..................
The modifiers alter there cars to suit their particular requirements and aspirations (not forgetting FUNDS available), as to what the car could or should have been. Not forgetting that the longer the ownership, the more detailed mods are carried out. Problem when carrying out these Modifications, you never get a reasnoble return on your total investment!
Not forgetting the the Future of the SALE of the Modified Car, which creats problems of it's own (Insurance, Does the car fit a Buyers criteria etc, etc).
Standard TVR cars still perform well enough and with new STD Suspension ride the tarmac well enough for our current congested pot holed bumpy roads. Some owners fit Alloy trim etc, but these minor alterations can be removed prior to a Sale.
On the point of Sale, I have always noticed that Standard cars of ANY ilk always sell quicker, due to the appeal of their Buyers Market wether the cars are Vintage,Classic or Modern. A standard car may also Grow in Value where as a Modified car may possibly Drop in Value.
The big question is what do you want the car for and why. Is it not better just to buy the next car up the performance ladder in standard format.
Not forgetting the the Future of the SALE of the Modified Car, which creats problems of it's own (Insurance, Does the car fit a Buyers criteria etc, etc).
Standard TVR cars still perform well enough and with new STD Suspension ride the tarmac well enough for our current congested pot holed bumpy roads. Some owners fit Alloy trim etc, but these minor alterations can be removed prior to a Sale.
On the point of Sale, I have always noticed that Standard cars of ANY ilk always sell quicker, due to the appeal of their Buyers Market wether the cars are Vintage,Classic or Modern. A standard car may also Grow in Value where as a Modified car may possibly Drop in Value.
The big question is what do you want the car for and why. Is it not better just to buy the next car up the performance ladder in standard format.
citizen smith said:
The modifiers alter there cars to suit their particular requirements and aspirations (not forgetting FUNDS available), as to what the car could or should have been. Not forgetting that the longer the ownership, the more detailed mods are carried out. Problem when carrying out these Modifications, you never get a reasnoble return on your total investment!
Not forgetting the the Future of the SALE of the Modified Car, which creats problems of it's own (Insurance, Does the car fit a Buyers criteria etc, etc).
Standard TVR cars still perform well enough and with new STD Suspension ride the tarmac well enough for our current congested pot holed bumpy roads. Some owners fit Alloy trim etc, but these minor alterations can be removed prior to a Sale.
On the point of Sale, I have always noticed that Standard cars of ANY ilk always sell quicker, due to the appeal of their Buyers Market wether the cars are Vintage,Classic or Modern. A standard car may also Grow in Value where as a Modified car may possibly Drop in Value.
The big question is what do you want the car for and why. Is it not better just to buy the next car up the performance ladder in standard format.
That sounds like the desire to keep cars original is totally financially motivated...if this is the case then all the emotive reasons given about retaining purity are kind of mute.Not forgetting the the Future of the SALE of the Modified Car, which creats problems of it's own (Insurance, Does the car fit a Buyers criteria etc, etc).
Standard TVR cars still perform well enough and with new STD Suspension ride the tarmac well enough for our current congested pot holed bumpy roads. Some owners fit Alloy trim etc, but these minor alterations can be removed prior to a Sale.
On the point of Sale, I have always noticed that Standard cars of ANY ilk always sell quicker, due to the appeal of their Buyers Market wether the cars are Vintage,Classic or Modern. A standard car may also Grow in Value where as a Modified car may possibly Drop in Value.
The big question is what do you want the car for and why. Is it not better just to buy the next car up the performance ladder in standard format.
Hunter T said:
That sounds like the desire to keep cars original is totally financially motivated...if this is the case then all the emotive reasons given about retaining purity are kind of mute.
Perhaps buying a car is the second biggest financial commitment in a persons life (hence finacial motivation), but it is always down the individual how they spend their money and wether or not they are concerned about their return of the investment.In the past I have modified cars to improve their preformance etc, but on point of Sale of the car it was always difficult to Sell the car, due to the Mods and the limited buyers market that it attracted (not forgetting the financial outlay in the first place).
You could say that some people enjoy modifying/developing their car more that driving it, but where shoud you draw the line. The next problem is Insurance, how long will those specialist companies insure those Modified cars.
citizen smith said:
Perhaps buying a car is the second biggest financial commitment in a persons life (hence finacial motivation), but it is always down the individual how they spend their money and wether or not they are concerned about their return of the investment.
In the past I have modified cars to improve their preformance etc, but on point of Sale of the car it was always difficult to Sell the car, due to the Mods and the limited buyers market that it attracted (not forgetting the financial outlay in the first place).
You could say that some people enjoy modifying/developing their car more that driving it, but where shoud you draw the line. The next problem is Insurance, how long will those specialist companies insure those Modified cars.
I just managed to get insurance without too much fuss on a car that has had a 3.6 engine replaced with 6Ltr, and once again im asking if its all about keeping the heritage pure or is that merely a front for protecting a financial investment? if that is the case then surely the guys that modify the cars without consideration of diminishing the returns are the true motoring enthusiasts ..................In the past I have modified cars to improve their preformance etc, but on point of Sale of the car it was always difficult to Sell the car, due to the Mods and the limited buyers market that it attracted (not forgetting the financial outlay in the first place).
You could say that some people enjoy modifying/developing their car more that driving it, but where shoud you draw the line. The next problem is Insurance, how long will those specialist companies insure those Modified cars.
Hunter T said:
surely the guys that modify the cars without consideration of diminishing the returns are the true motoring enthusiasts ..................
possibly but you do have to have some respect for the hand built and relatively low numbers built. I remember being in a conversation with Trevor about twenty years ago when someone described how they had rebuilt a sixties car to original spec and cruised on the motorway to Blackpool at 75mph; the owner was somewhat taken about when T replied along the lines of 'oh dear, have you tried changing to twin carbs or ...'Perhaps the true enthusiast, is the person that buys the car with the intention of keeping the car running in standard trim, no matter what unexpected issues that it may throw up regardless of expenses that may be incured.
They want to drive and maintain the car as it was originally designed to be.
They want to drive and maintain the car as it was originally designed to be.
citizen smith said:
Perhaps the true enthusiast, is the person that buys the car with the intention of keeping the car running in standard trim, no matter what unexpected issues that it may throw up regardless of expenses that may be incured.
They want to drive and maintain the car as it was originally designed to be.
Not so sure I'd agree.. My Griff has had subtle updates, looks original. but brakes dampers, etc are better than new. if the ECU were to fail, I'd get a more modern one, dump the airflow meter, stepper motor, for example. They want to drive and maintain the car as it was originally designed to be.
lots of classic cars, owners have had subtle update to make the cars mores suitable/reliable... and these cars get used, vs being cocooned away as an 'original' investment.
BJWoods said:
Not so sure I'd agree.. My Griff has had subtle updates, looks original. but brakes dampers, etc are better than new. if the ECU were to fail, I'd get a more modern one, dump the airflow meter, stepper motor, for example.
lots of classic cars, owners have had subtle update to make the cars mores suitable/reliable... and these cars get used, vs being cocooned away as an 'original' investment.
I don't know of any original cars about because most have changed make and type of tyre, bulbs, oil, filters, clutch spec...people say that these are consumable items and when its time to replace the worn out ones they upgrade to a more modern robust equivalent, well some could argue that the speed 6 is something of a consumable item..no matter how rigid the service schedule has been adhered to.....lots of classic cars, owners have had subtle update to make the cars mores suitable/reliable... and these cars get used, vs being cocooned away as an 'original' investment.
My 'upgrades' ( I like to think I'm improving the car) have now cost more than the purchase price of the car. Many will say I have devalued it and they may well be right. My consideration from the start was to buy the car and turbo it then fit improved brakes and so on. I don't have unlimited funds but the car is also my hobby: I don't go fishing, I don't smoke, I don't go flying etc etc so I justify the costs with this reasoning, flawed or not. Obviously I would like a decent price when I sell it but I know for a fact I will get nowhere even close to what it has cost me. But I am enjoying the journey and I can't imagine I would get the same pleasure tinkering with a Z4, Honda S2000, Boxster, or SLK.
N7GTX, you're spot on about the S2000/Boxter/Z4. They are what you could call boring, effective at what they do, but when you are driving one of them and watch a TVR Griff/Chim go past you just yearn to be in the TVR again.
It's the Noise and Exhilaration that you long for!, rather than the modern efficency of power roofs etc.
It's the Noise and Exhilaration that you long for!, rather than the modern efficency of power roofs etc.
Theres an argument for both. You could say if you like a car enough to buy it then why the need to modify? But on the flip TVR's are very easy to improve in subtle ways and they always were a bespoke car to a point with colour schemes and finish...most people like to be belong but they still like to be different.
Performance is where it gets difficult. People can talk all day about sticking to 70mph and speed limits but what happens up to that point is all important and beyond in the right circumstances! Most people buy a TVR not just on looks but performance and the Chimaera in particular with its larger CC range gets regular performance upgrades.
Personally I found the 400 a lot of fun but being the smallest of the engine sizes its natural to want more. For me it made sense to add a turbo and the enjoyment level increased 10 fold. If I'd have had the 4.5 or 5.0 or the very lovely 4.3 maybe I would have left alone ish
As for resale, peoples attention was drawn by the fact it was a 4l V8 with a turbo bolted on....it made it more saleable in my eyes and it stood out from the crowd a bit more. It might not appeal to everyone but whatever floats you boat is ok with me. The only thing I feel important is whatever the mod it needs to be carried out properly and tastefully....although I accept thats a somewhat subjective comment.
Performance is where it gets difficult. People can talk all day about sticking to 70mph and speed limits but what happens up to that point is all important and beyond in the right circumstances! Most people buy a TVR not just on looks but performance and the Chimaera in particular with its larger CC range gets regular performance upgrades.
Personally I found the 400 a lot of fun but being the smallest of the engine sizes its natural to want more. For me it made sense to add a turbo and the enjoyment level increased 10 fold. If I'd have had the 4.5 or 5.0 or the very lovely 4.3 maybe I would have left alone ish
As for resale, peoples attention was drawn by the fact it was a 4l V8 with a turbo bolted on....it made it more saleable in my eyes and it stood out from the crowd a bit more. It might not appeal to everyone but whatever floats you boat is ok with me. The only thing I feel important is whatever the mod it needs to be carried out properly and tastefully....although I accept thats a somewhat subjective comment.
Hunter T said:
I don't know of any original cars about because most have changed make and type of tyre, bulbs, oil, filters, clutch spec...people say that these are consumable items and when its time to replace the worn out ones they upgrade to a more modern robust equivalent, well some could argue that the speed 6 is something of a consumable item..no matter how rigid the service schedule has been adhered to.....
An LS conversion is only as good as the person who installed it..... it's not just a matter of whipping an engine out and chucking a new one in. Read this closely, it's very interesting https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
There are folk who like to keep their cars original, perhaps with easy to revert upgrades.
There are folk who want to substantially change what the factory built.
The originality mob generally don't advocate change of engines under the guise of "TVR used that engine in another car" that is another group altogether that would perhaps seek to justify their car is still original despite quite a big change.
Your car, your choice. Enjoy what you have or what you wish to create.
As an aside, but related to the OP.
Not everyone who has a very original car keeps it that way because of money, some folk actually like what they bought in the first place and maybe think that the factory knew more about building cars than they do.
There are folk who want to substantially change what the factory built.
The originality mob generally don't advocate change of engines under the guise of "TVR used that engine in another car" that is another group altogether that would perhaps seek to justify their car is still original despite quite a big change.
Your car, your choice. Enjoy what you have or what you wish to create.
As an aside, but related to the OP.
Not everyone who has a very original car keeps it that way because of money, some folk actually like what they bought in the first place and maybe think that the factory knew more about building cars than they do.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 30th September 08:10
Where to draw the line? Good question. I suppose I'd stop modifying before the car stopped feeling like a TVR to me, which by definition is very subjective. Personally I wouldn't change the rear lights of my early Griff but I would fit an improved chassis, which is a much bigger change of course. The car I most enjoyed pre TVR was a highly (but professionally) modified mini with tuned 1340cc engine, cooper s discs, modified suspension etc ... all of those mods were not only accepted by mini enthusiasts but they were really sought after and the car drove better than any factory mini. Perhaps we should reflect on a chap called Jack Griffith who modified a Grantura. That seemed to work out ok, and I think the same will apply to fitting for example, LS engines to TVRs. :-)
Yes, its all very personal and subjective but 2 thoughts came to mind.
1. You want to keep your straight 6 original but inevitably it will fall apart. So you have it 'repaired' by Powers or Straight Six or whomever, but its no longer original because they have modified it, or rather they have improved the original because it was poor. I assume that is acceptable to everyone.
2. As the decades have passed, the engines chosen by Trevor and company have increased in size with each model (more or less) from a 1.6 in the 60s, to a 2 litre, then 2.8, 2.9, 3.5, 3.9 and so on up to the 5.0 litre. It seems to me that if Trevor was still making the cars he would inevitably move on to turbos - after all he fitted them decades ago - and I'm quite sure, would love the idea of the current LS taking the size up to 6.0 and then 6.2 litre.
To me this is what TVR is all about.
1. You want to keep your straight 6 original but inevitably it will fall apart. So you have it 'repaired' by Powers or Straight Six or whomever, but its no longer original because they have modified it, or rather they have improved the original because it was poor. I assume that is acceptable to everyone.
2. As the decades have passed, the engines chosen by Trevor and company have increased in size with each model (more or less) from a 1.6 in the 60s, to a 2 litre, then 2.8, 2.9, 3.5, 3.9 and so on up to the 5.0 litre. It seems to me that if Trevor was still making the cars he would inevitably move on to turbos - after all he fitted them decades ago - and I'm quite sure, would love the idea of the current LS taking the size up to 6.0 and then 6.2 litre.
To me this is what TVR is all about.
My pennies worth is that if modified or standard there is a market.
There are only a few cars around that make money as they get older and generally they are maintained as factory spec.
A TVR was a kit car made in a factory, so really anything goes provided it's safe.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and one mans perfect car can look naff to another, even if it's a rare spec in a rare colour lol but I think with a TVR we can have something a little different without it losing originality.
That's what owning a TVR is all about......I think anyway
There are only a few cars around that make money as they get older and generally they are maintained as factory spec.
A TVR was a kit car made in a factory, so really anything goes provided it's safe.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and one mans perfect car can look naff to another, even if it's a rare spec in a rare colour lol but I think with a TVR we can have something a little different without it losing originality.
That's what owning a TVR is all about......I think anyway
I very much doubt that TVR ever turned out two identical cars from the factory, so who can tell what the 'original' is supposed to be? Plus don't forget that the factory had a stated policy of continuous improvement.
In my view, any modification that in the owner's opinion improves the car's handling, performance, looks, serviceability and / or convenience is fine, as long as any mod is carried out safely and declared to the insurer.
As has been previously mentioned, Messrs. Wilkinson, Lilley & Wheeler were always looking for ways to gain that extra edge, not try to preserve the purity or originality of the breed.
These cars are specifically intended to be for the individual, and are all about the "Spirit of Driving". They are meant to be enjoyed, not stuffed away under a dust sheet somewhere, hidden from view in the hope that their values will skyrocket.
If I consider the pleasure/£ ratio, my TVRs have been the best investment I have ever made...
Just my two pennies worth....
In my view, any modification that in the owner's opinion improves the car's handling, performance, looks, serviceability and / or convenience is fine, as long as any mod is carried out safely and declared to the insurer.
As has been previously mentioned, Messrs. Wilkinson, Lilley & Wheeler were always looking for ways to gain that extra edge, not try to preserve the purity or originality of the breed.
These cars are specifically intended to be for the individual, and are all about the "Spirit of Driving". They are meant to be enjoyed, not stuffed away under a dust sheet somewhere, hidden from view in the hope that their values will skyrocket.
If I consider the pleasure/£ ratio, my TVRs have been the best investment I have ever made...
Just my two pennies worth....
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