Don't Sell your Griff/Chim...........
Discussion
...........because cars like the tusc 2, sagaris handle so much better than your car...
I have test driven Tusc 2, tusc 2 S, t350, etc. and they handled so much better than my griff.
BUT upgrade your dampers/springs instead.
I've always been a bit wary of going down this route, ie for expensive, not interested intrack days, too much to choose from nitrons, ohlins, adjustables, etc,etc.
But my found out my dampers were knackered (resting on bump stops) so had to buy some anyway... Big thank you to Steve Howard for advice, as I said I had to get new ones anyway, not bothered by the cost (over much) but rather want the best handling car for my purposes, A-B roads, motorways, and lots of bumpy b roads around Henley.
Now have a full set of Ohlins and the car is TOTALLY transformed, Lots more confidence in getting the power down, bumpy roads, everything I ususally throw my Seat Leon Cupra at without a second thought, the Griff can more than handle too.
BIG thank you to Steve as he pulled out all the stops, worked late friday and throughout Saturday to get it ready...... As I found out after the car was in pieces last week.... I was invited to put the Griff in a Charity function, display/rides for the Lady Taverners, and helping Deprived children, on Sunday(yesterday)... Hope the backs OK Steve.
So excuse the plug - [url]www.thamesvalleyracing.com[/url]
The ohlins are expensive, but ultimately - imho worth it. If you want to know the spec of mine best to ask Steve, but I believe the TVR press cars have them, and they have been raved about handling wise.
Still can't believe how the car handles, it was beginning to feel more like an ageing classic car vs modern cars, but now I think - imho - is better han the tusc 2, especially on b roads the v8 give a flexibility of staying in gear, rather than chasing the revs/gear changes in a s6 car.
So i'm going to have to do the brakes next....
Has anyone noticed big difference in stopping distances with brake upgardes vs original griff 500 brakes...
ie noticed in Sagaris Autocar test vs Griff 500 autocar test (years ago)
that the saggy stopped 11 METRES shorter from 70 MPH than the griff.... what is mainly at work here wider? tyre and/or bigger brakes? (the weight is about the same) so no reason the griif can't be improved on?
B
>> Edited by bjwoods on Monday 18th July 14:28
I have test driven Tusc 2, tusc 2 S, t350, etc. and they handled so much better than my griff.
BUT upgrade your dampers/springs instead.
I've always been a bit wary of going down this route, ie for expensive, not interested intrack days, too much to choose from nitrons, ohlins, adjustables, etc,etc.
But my found out my dampers were knackered (resting on bump stops) so had to buy some anyway... Big thank you to Steve Howard for advice, as I said I had to get new ones anyway, not bothered by the cost (over much) but rather want the best handling car for my purposes, A-B roads, motorways, and lots of bumpy b roads around Henley.
Now have a full set of Ohlins and the car is TOTALLY transformed, Lots more confidence in getting the power down, bumpy roads, everything I ususally throw my Seat Leon Cupra at without a second thought, the Griff can more than handle too.
BIG thank you to Steve as he pulled out all the stops, worked late friday and throughout Saturday to get it ready...... As I found out after the car was in pieces last week.... I was invited to put the Griff in a Charity function, display/rides for the Lady Taverners, and helping Deprived children, on Sunday(yesterday)... Hope the backs OK Steve.
So excuse the plug - [url]www.thamesvalleyracing.com[/url]
The ohlins are expensive, but ultimately - imho worth it. If you want to know the spec of mine best to ask Steve, but I believe the TVR press cars have them, and they have been raved about handling wise.
Still can't believe how the car handles, it was beginning to feel more like an ageing classic car vs modern cars, but now I think - imho - is better han the tusc 2, especially on b roads the v8 give a flexibility of staying in gear, rather than chasing the revs/gear changes in a s6 car.
So i'm going to have to do the brakes next....
Has anyone noticed big difference in stopping distances with brake upgardes vs original griff 500 brakes...
ie noticed in Sagaris Autocar test vs Griff 500 autocar test (years ago)
that the saggy stopped 11 METRES shorter from 70 MPH than the griff.... what is mainly at work here wider? tyre and/or bigger brakes? (the weight is about the same) so no reason the griif can't be improved on?
B
>> Edited by bjwoods on Monday 18th July 14:28
i upgraded my griff years ago with Intrax dampers and springs. Old dampers were dangerous and the spring windings touched eachother. Anyway one year ago i had my silent blocks changed for rose joints. I wondered if the ohlins also use rose joints because i think it is a much better solution. The griff handles very very well now. Intrax is specialised firm which produces racing dampers. Cost a lot though. I guess same as Ohlins.
Hi Barry,
Also use Steve who like you has told me that one of my rear shocks is in pretty poor state, probably means others are not too far behind - was in fact thinking about changing the car, never been too impressed with the ride/handling and always thought that even spending out on suspension might only make a marginal improvement which given cost involved could lead to dissapointment.
If you don't mind me asking what did it all set you back by as you may have changed my mind.
Sinclair
Also use Steve who like you has told me that one of my rear shocks is in pretty poor state, probably means others are not too far behind - was in fact thinking about changing the car, never been too impressed with the ride/handling and always thought that even spending out on suspension might only make a marginal improvement which given cost involved could lead to dissapointment.
If you don't mind me asking what did it all set you back by as you may have changed my mind.
Sinclair
Prof Higgins said:
Hi Barry,
Also use Steve who like you has told me that one of my rear shocks is in pretty poor state, probably means others are not too far behind - was in fact thinking about changing the car, never been too impressed with the ride/handling and always thought that even spending out on suspension might only make a marginal improvement which given cost involved could lead to dissapointment.
If you don't mind me asking what did it all set you back by as you may have changed my mind.
Sinclair
Not cheap.. £1400 + vat dampers and springs, plus fitting....
Steve's going to finish off some chassis rust prevention on Wednesday, so get the final bill then.
BUT given that the old ones are knackered, it is then not a huge amount more on top, ie the labour is the same, and you need new dampers anyway, to get a decent handling car. Damm site cheaper than buying a new sagaris as well!!
Give him a call.
Tke it from me ... made a huge difference.
B
I doubt very much that just by fitting a set of Ohlins dampers and associated springs to a Griffith or Chimaera will make it handle better than a Tuscan,T350 or Sagaris.
The coupe style is obviously more ridgid for a start and the chassis and suspension geometry is much better on later TVR's.
Without doubt, fitting the best springs and dampers to a car and having it properly set up will have a very beneficial and noticeable effect out on the road or track.
Ditching the standard seat for a race one will also have obvious benefits.
The coupe style is obviously more ridgid for a start and the chassis and suspension geometry is much better on later TVR's.
Without doubt, fitting the best springs and dampers to a car and having it properly set up will have a very beneficial and noticeable effect out on the road or track.
Ditching the standard seat for a race one will also have obvious benefits.
Aaron C. Reskew said:
I doubt very much that just by fitting a set of Ohlins dampers and associated springs to a Griffith or Chimaera will make it handle better than a Tuscan,T350 or Sagaris.
The coupe style is obviously more ridgid for a start and the chassis and suspension geometry is much better on later TVR's.
Without doubt, fitting the best springs and dampers to a car and having it properly set up will have a very beneficial and noticeable effect out on the road or track.
Ditching the standard seat for a race one will also have obvious benefits.
And Yet.....
I have griff's for over 12 years.....
Tested tusc 2, t350's tamoras, sagari on exactly the same roads around Heneley within the last couple of weeks.
Was very sceptical myself, and yet - in my opinion of course, it now handles superbly....
And the end of the day, the chassis under theses cars are very similar, and yes, just putting these dampers on tusc 2's vs tusc 1's to quote one tusc mk 1 owner, made it a TOTALLY different experience, from a car that he thought was trying to kll him, to one that handled.
In my opinion of course, I have of course have just had it done and driven both, and you are just speculating without having driven both?
B
TVR's are always fitted with budget dampers as standard and invariably wear out within 40,000 miles or less if used agressively.
Most people would tell you that their Griff/Chimaera handles better after replacing their clapped out 10 year old dampers and springs with even the cheapest replacements.
You are obviously familiar with your Griffith's handling and driving characteristics which goes a long way in feeling comfortable and confident when something on the car is vastly improved and you are able to take advantage of it.
How much experience have you with driving the Tuscan, T350 or Sagaris? And how do you know what i have and have not driven?
Most people would tell you that their Griff/Chimaera handles better after replacing their clapped out 10 year old dampers and springs with even the cheapest replacements.
You are obviously familiar with your Griffith's handling and driving characteristics which goes a long way in feeling comfortable and confident when something on the car is vastly improved and you are able to take advantage of it.
How much experience have you with driving the Tuscan, T350 or Sagaris? And how do you know what i have and have not driven?
bjwoods said:
I doubt very much that just by fitting a set of Ohlins dampers and associated springs to a Griffith or Chimaera will make it handle better than a Tuscan,T350 or Sagaris.
The coupe style is obviously more ridgid for a start and the chassis and suspension geometry is much better on later TVR's.
Without doubt, fitting the best springs and dampers to a car and having it properly set up will have a very beneficial and noticeable effect out on the road or track.
Ditching the standard seat for a race one will also have obvious benefits.
And the end of the day, the chassis under theses cars are very similar, and yes, just putting these dampers on tusc 2's vs tusc 1's to quote one tusc mk 1 owner, made it a TOTALLY different experience, from a car that he thought was trying to kll him, to one that handled.
Have to agree with ACR here (you may be surprised what he has driven and I probably know less than 2%!)
In 13 years of driving TVRs and attending many track days and some sprints I have come to the following two conclusions:
No matter what you do to a Wedge a Griff 500 will be quicker round the track. (shpub car may be the only exception)
No matter what you do to a Griff/C a T chassis car will be quicker.
The Griff is a lovely car and Nitrons/Ohlins are a great upgrade but it will never match a T chassis, IMHexperience.
So I've been test driving tuscans for 5 years, plus other TVR's I 've JUST SAID I have driven TUsc mark 2 sagaris with in the last 2 weeks, over identical roads, and compared them with new Griif setup. I've also said the difference between a Mark 1 tusc and mark 2 setup is staggering in itself, that includes late 04 model mk1 tusc's. So I must be hallucinating then, haven't a clue
My griffith has been set up correctly over the last number of years, geometry checks, etc. has been maintaned correctly regardless of expense.
and imho handling on real world, public roads, a-b, and bumpy, it is far better, as good as new tusc, as I said my VERY original post, I've not been talking about on the limit handling on tracks, or getting that ultimate lap time.... But i'm sure that could be put to the test... BUT as a tusc has a 20-30% more powerful enine perhaps an unfair comparison with laptimes.
Please don't rubbish anything until you have perhaps tried it. There are some very badly set upcars out there, griffs, chims, tams, t350, tusc mk1/2 - some straight out of thefactory with the geometry all wrong.
Then again the other factor is perhaps It is not just any old set of ohlins, but those and springs developed for the Griff in mind and A BIG factor unaccounted for factor perhaps that Steve , 'perhaps
knows more than a 'little' about setting up the suspension geometry, cambers, track,etc,etc on Griff's/chims, tuscans.
I'm only saying it handles as well as a tusc on public roads.... imho Don't want to offend anyone to whom it is important that their car gets better lap times than an older cheaper car.
B
>> Edited by bjwoods on Monday 18th July 20:22
>> Edited by bjwoods on Monday 18th July 20:22
My griffith has been set up correctly over the last number of years, geometry checks, etc. has been maintaned correctly regardless of expense.
and imho handling on real world, public roads, a-b, and bumpy, it is far better, as good as new tusc, as I said my VERY original post, I've not been talking about on the limit handling on tracks, or getting that ultimate lap time.... But i'm sure that could be put to the test... BUT as a tusc has a 20-30% more powerful enine perhaps an unfair comparison with laptimes.
Please don't rubbish anything until you have perhaps tried it. There are some very badly set upcars out there, griffs, chims, tams, t350, tusc mk1/2 - some straight out of thefactory with the geometry all wrong.
Then again the other factor is perhaps It is not just any old set of ohlins, but those and springs developed for the Griff in mind and A BIG factor unaccounted for factor perhaps that Steve , 'perhaps
knows more than a 'little' about setting up the suspension geometry, cambers, track,etc,etc on Griff's/chims, tuscans. I'm only saying it handles as well as a tusc on public roads.... imho Don't want to offend anyone to whom it is important that their car gets better lap times than an older cheaper car.
B
>> Edited by bjwoods on Monday 18th July 20:22
>> Edited by bjwoods on Monday 18th July 20:22
To put it into perspective, the improvement in my Goodwood lap times from fitting Nitron suspension to the V8S and setting it up carefully, was greater than the change from adding 60 BHP or so. It was also a heck of a lot cheaper.
The main reason for fitting bigger brakes is to improve heat dissipation and cure brake fade. Unless you're getting brake fade it's hard to justify a brake upgrade. But I've also found that the brakes are more progressive and less inclined to grab under threshold braking, and this means that it is easier to keep the tyres working right on the limit of grip even at very high speed.
The main reason for fitting bigger brakes is to improve heat dissipation and cure brake fade. Unless you're getting brake fade it's hard to justify a brake upgrade. But I've also found that the brakes are more progressive and less inclined to grab under threshold braking, and this means that it is easier to keep the tyres working right on the limit of grip even at very high speed.
I think the obvious is the handling is far better than before and a number of other griff owners seem to concur, and again imho as good handling on a public road as new tusc. NOTE - I'm not saying Quicker - note
And I'm also sure that a tuscan mk 2, sagaris, t350 is far quicker than than a griff 500 around a track.
Of course these cars have 25 -35% more power than a griff.
Aaron - Why so negative?... why the post about needing sympathy.... and quick to judge/cast aspersions. I'm very happy with my car, as are a number of others, what is so important to you that you had the the need to jump into this thread, in a very negative manner/patronising manner.
Handling is albout set up, and most TVR's have never been set up/developed that well by the factory, the tusc 2 has as far as i'm aware essentially the same chassis as a 2004 tusc 1, but a lot of time and development has been spent getting the geometry/damping/springs much better.
These items were not available 5,6, 7 8 -10 years ago, so is it not within the realms of possibility that something similar could be done with a griff, even when new both my griffs always felt that the back end was not quite comnnected to the front, even autocar siad nothing essentially wrong, just more develoment work would have been good to get over this...
Anyway I did not want to start a 'discussion' just recommend to fellow griff/chim owners that imho this was well worth it. And thanks to Steve for helping me help out with getting it ready in time for this charity.
B
>> Edited by bjwoods on Monday 18th July 21:08
>> Edited by bjwoods on Monday 18th July 21:32
And I'm also sure that a tuscan mk 2, sagaris, t350 is far quicker than than a griff 500 around a track.
Of course these cars have 25 -35% more power than a griff.
Aaron - Why so negative?... why the post about needing sympathy.... and quick to judge/cast aspersions. I'm very happy with my car, as are a number of others, what is so important to you that you had the the need to jump into this thread, in a very negative manner/patronising manner.
Handling is albout set up, and most TVR's have never been set up/developed that well by the factory, the tusc 2 has as far as i'm aware essentially the same chassis as a 2004 tusc 1, but a lot of time and development has been spent getting the geometry/damping/springs much better.
These items were not available 5,6, 7 8 -10 years ago, so is it not within the realms of possibility that something similar could be done with a griff, even when new both my griffs always felt that the back end was not quite comnnected to the front, even autocar siad nothing essentially wrong, just more develoment work would have been good to get over this...
Anyway I did not want to start a 'discussion' just recommend to fellow griff/chim owners that imho this was well worth it. And thanks to Steve for helping me help out with getting it ready in time for this charity.
B
>> Edited by bjwoods on Monday 18th July 21:08
>> Edited by bjwoods on Monday 18th July 21:32
19560 said:
Aaron C. Reskew said:
I doubt very much that just by fitting a set of Ohlins dampers and associated springs to a Griffith or Chimaera will make it handle better than a Tuscan,T350 or Sagaris.
The coupe style is obviously more ridgid for a start and the chassis and suspension geometry is much better on later TVR's.
Without doubt, fitting the best springs and dampers to a car and having it properly set up will have a very beneficial and noticeable effect out on the road or track.
Ditching the standard seat for a race one will also have obvious benefits.
And the end of the day, the chassis under theses cars are very similar, and yes, just putting these dampers on tusc 2's vs tusc 1's to quote one tusc mk 1 owner, made it a TOTALLY different experience, from a car that he thought was trying to kll him, to one that handled.
Have to agree with ACR here (you may be surprised what he has driven and I probably know less than 2%!)
In 13 years of driving TVRs and attending many track days and some sprints I have come to the following two conclusions:
No matter what you do to a Wedge a Griff 500 will be quicker round the track. (shpub car may be the only exception)
No matter what you do to a Griff/C a T chassis car will be quicker.
The Griff is a lovely car and Nitrons/Ohlins are a great upgrade but it will never match a T chassis, IMHexperience.
I'm not talking quicker though!!!!!!!
Just the handling is as good on bumpy b roads, real world roads.
B
GreenV8S said:
To put it into perspective, the improvement in my Goodwood lap times from fitting Nitron suspension to the V8S and setting it up carefully, was greater than the change from adding 60 BHP or so. It was also a heck of a lot cheaper.
The main reason for fitting bigger brakes is to improve heat dissipation and cure brake fade. Unless you're getting brake fade it's hard to justify a brake upgrade. But I've also found that the brakes are more progressive and less inclined to grab under threshold braking, and this means that it is easier to keep the tyres working right on the limit of grip even at very high speed.
What's you opinion on the standard griff brakes? is the consensus that the fronts could do with being a bit beefier. ie possible to lock up rears before fronts, consequently nervous under braking.
As I have had a number of people recommend upgrading just the fronts on a GRiff specifically, as the standard set up makes it a bit tale happy under heavy braking. I don't know if it would make a huge difference in stoping distances, but would make it a bit more controllable, less tail happy?
B
>> Edited by bjwoods on Monday 18th July 21:28
Aaron C. Reskew said:
...the chassis and suspension geometry is much better on later TVR's...
Aaron,
Do you have any details of the suspension geometry on either the Griff/Chimp generation or the current cars?
I have a pet theory about the TVR's handling, but I've never been able to get the geometric data to either prove or disprove it. If you have access to any information, particularly relating to the suspension geometry, I'd be very interested. E-mail me, in confidence, via my profile if you don;t want to discuss it on open forum.
bjwoods said:
imho handling on real world, public roads, a-b, and bumpy, it is far better, as good as new tusc, as I said my VERY original post, I've not been talking about on the limit handling on tracks, or getting that ultimate lap time.... But i'm sure that could be put to the test... BUT as a tusc has a 20-30% more powerful enine perhaps an unfair comparison with laptimes.
The Tuscan also significantly out brakes and out corners the Griff/C inc comfort and driveability; I have never met a Tuscan owner who has moved from a G/C and differed.
bjwoods said:
I'm not talking quicker though!!!!!!!
Just the handling is as good on bumpy b roads, real world roads.
No, I didn't mean just speed either. You have a good point about suspension but overstate your case IMHO. Ian may be right again here:
Aaron C. Reskew said:
I can see another 'siwes' style situation developing here and rather than continue trying to explain the obvious we should just let the matter rest.
I am now worried that I'm becoming his parrot.
bjwoods said:
What's you opinion on the standard griff brakes? is the consensus that the fronts could do with being a bit beefier. ie possible to lock up rears before fronts, consequently nervous under braking.
The standard V8S brakes were distinctly tail happy.
As far as I can see the early 4.0 Griffiths and Chimaeras used the same brakes, and everything I've seen suggests they share the same tail happy handling under hard braking. This can be exacerbated or compensated by suspension setup and driver technique so you can't take this at face value, but it seems to me that increased stability by moving the bias forwards slightly would be a good move.
On the V8S I found that moving the front calipers out to take 285mm discs (over 240mm standard) was enough to change it from a rear bias to a slight front bias. Braking under heavy cornering the car would tend to straighten up slightly rather than turn in. It would be easy to go too far and end up locking the fronts too early in a straight line, but I thought that 285mm on the V8S gave it a really nice balance.
Mutant Rat said:
...the chassis and suspension geometry is much better on later TVR's...
Aaron,
Do you have any details of the suspension geometry on either the Griff/Chimp generation or the current cars?
I have a pet theory about the TVR's handling, but I've never been able to get the geometric data to either prove or disprove it. If you have access to any information, particularly relating to the suspension geometry, I'd be very interested. E-mail me, in confidence, via my profile if you don;t want to discuss it on open forum.
I don't have any specific technical detail on any of the TVR range other than what can be readily accessed or measured.
On of the main problems relates to the steep damper angles.It was better on the early cars like the Vixen for example.
Joolz may be more help to you on this one.
Obviously a convertible is not going to be as ridgid as a coupe version or open top monocoque chassis car for a start.
When my Tasmin chassis was modified at a friends firm, twisting forces were exerted onto it and measured.
Just by fitting a thin steel plate to the central area,caused the torsional ridgidity to increase by 50%!
Quite a bit of work was done to an early Cerbera a few years ago as a bit of R&D for TVR i understand.Details are a bit patchy.
This involved adaptive suspension using hydraulics. The car went round corners like it was on rails!
Sorry i can't be of any further help. If i can find time to have an in depth chat with my friend, i will probably be able to tell you what is wrong with the certain aspects of the chassis/suspension design, although as i am sure there are worse handling cars out there anyway and in all honesty the TVR chassis's are'nt that bad. Except for the crappy powder coating process used between the Wedge series and the present cars.
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