730 quid and they still leave the plugs loose...
Discussion
...maybe I'm over sensitive, or my expectations unreasonable, but this really hacks me off. Given recent dealer 'sniffiness' over lack of "history" when trying to trade in against a Griff during the summer (despite comments like "that's in nice condition"), I got my car specialist serviced last week and stumped up over 700sovs (included suspension and brake work). Think most things have been done ok (though the brakes were lethal...completely unbedded) but on fitting some new Magnecors this avvie, I find not only that the little pips on the end of the plugs are loose (and even unthreaded on one or two) but the plugs themselves are little more than finger tight (suppose I should be thankful they weren't cross-threaded).
In the name of the Wee Man, it's not rocket science, any of it, and if that ain't right what hope is there for something a bit more challenging being done competently?
To hell with the service record...I'll spanner it myself from now on. I hate this sort of half-hearted crap treatment and will gladly keep the labour costs for myself and their parts mark-up.
In the name of the Wee Man, it's not rocket science, any of it, and if that ain't right what hope is there for something a bit more challenging being done competently?
To hell with the service record...I'll spanner it myself from now on. I hate this sort of half-hearted crap treatment and will gladly keep the labour costs for myself and their parts mark-up.
Well I have to say as someone who has changed a lot of plugs in TVRs I am never surprised when I find loose pips and fingertight plugs. Despite my best efforts it does seem to happen. The pips are difficult to tighten up and the engine vibration seems to undo them as does the act of plugging the plug lead off.
The plugs are ment to be tightened 1/4 turn after feeling resistence. If that resistence is caused by the spark plug tool rubbing on the manifold or water pipes or dirt in the thread despite my best efforts, it is possible to do everything right without the plugs being fully home. This has caught me out on several occassions. If they are overtightened (the home mechanics method of doing the job correctly) then there is a risk of undoing the plug along with the threaded insert. This is very very expensive to address.
As for brakes... any new pad or disc will require bedding in. It can take some time and distance. Would you have preferred the specialist putting 60-100 miles on your car?
Steve
The plugs are ment to be tightened 1/4 turn after feeling resistence. If that resistence is caused by the spark plug tool rubbing on the manifold or water pipes or dirt in the thread despite my best efforts, it is possible to do everything right without the plugs being fully home. This has caught me out on several occassions. If they are overtightened (the home mechanics method of doing the job correctly) then there is a risk of undoing the plug along with the threaded insert. This is very very expensive to address.
As for brakes... any new pad or disc will require bedding in. It can take some time and distance. Would you have preferred the specialist putting 60-100 miles on your car?
Steve
No, I'm not gonna "out" 'em here and certainly not before I'm sure. I will be crawling all over the car later, schedule in hand, as I now suspect all that has been done is fluids, filters etc and the added value extra work they referred to me. If my suspicions are borne out, then I think it's a matter for Trading Standards rather than message boards.
The pips are difficult to tighten up and the engine vibration seems to undo them as does the act of plugging the plug lead off.
Nip them up with some grips before installing the plugs, job done and what's difficult?...just attention to detail.
The plugs are ment to be tightened 1/4 turn after feeling resistence. If that resistence is caused by the spark plug tool rubbing on the manifold or water pipes or dirt in the thread despite my best efforts, it is possible to do everything right without the plugs being fully home. This has caught me out on several occassions. If they are overtightened (the home mechanics method of doing the job correctly) then there is a risk of undoing the plug along with the threaded insert. This is very very expensive to address.
Well, NGK's recommendation is actually 3/4 turn on plugs with crush washers, or the manufacturer's torque setting, neither were even close.
As for brakes... any new pad or disc will require bedding in. It can take some time and distance. Would you have preferred the specialist putting 60-100 miles on your car?
I am aware of the need for bedding in, but there is no excuse for sending someone onto the highway with inoperative brakes. There wasn't any road test done.
Nipping them up does work but I have had a few that didn't respond to this! Had to use some conductive paint.
The finger tightening is a difficult one. I have had this happen to me on several occassions before I milled a bevel on the exhaust manifold and got the thinest socket I could find. As I say difficult as you don't want to overtighten.
The pads issue is also difficult. At least you should have been warned that they needed bedding in. How do you know there was no road test?
The problem with these bits is that they are not quite as black and white as you might argue. How would you have reacted if there was a charge for £200 for pad bedding in?
I think you are doing the right thing and making sure of the facts before talking to them. Just being a bit of a devil's advocate, though.
Steve
The finger tightening is a difficult one. I have had this happen to me on several occassions before I milled a bevel on the exhaust manifold and got the thinest socket I could find. As I say difficult as you don't want to overtighten.
The pads issue is also difficult. At least you should have been warned that they needed bedding in. How do you know there was no road test?
The problem with these bits is that they are not quite as black and white as you might argue. How would you have reacted if there was a charge for £200 for pad bedding in?
I think you are doing the right thing and making sure of the facts before talking to them. Just being a bit of a devil's advocate, though.
Steve
Mileage was the same as when I left it (suspicious sort, me 
), and to be fair they did warn me that braking might be "impaired until they settle down...".
I fully accept there are degrees of acceptability but to put all this in context, my old fella had his Beetle's annual service done a week or so ago at a grand cost of 70 quid including a bloody valet before it came back feeling like new. Despite spending over 10 times that much, I have a job to tell from the seat that the car's been touched apart from having no brakes.
Now I'm not suggesting there are many similarities beyond both cars having four wheels, but there is more than a hint of pi$$ taking in TVR land and it stinks in my view.
), and to be fair they did warn me that braking might be "impaired until they settle down...". I fully accept there are degrees of acceptability but to put all this in context, my old fella had his Beetle's annual service done a week or so ago at a grand cost of 70 quid including a bloody valet before it came back feeling like new. Despite spending over 10 times that much, I have a job to tell from the seat that the car's been touched apart from having no brakes.
Now I'm not suggesting there are many similarities beyond both cars having four wheels, but there is more than a hint of pi$$ taking in TVR land and it stinks in my view.
Oh Quinny calling me uninitiated? 
I have had this problem several times now. The solution is to mill/grind a better clearance on the manifold. Do you then remove the manifold and charge the customer for the priviledge? What do you think the customer will say when he hears we had to remove the manifold to make sure the plugs fitted correctly? Or it took 3 hours to change the plugs?
The difficulty is that do you potentially overtighten and get the blame for knackering the insert or come off when it is tight? Devil you do and the Devil you don't. I have sympathy with the guys that have do this every day and make that judgement.
I have had this problem several times now. The solution is to mill/grind a better clearance on the manifold. Do you then remove the manifold and charge the customer for the priviledge? What do you think the customer will say when he hears we had to remove the manifold to make sure the plugs fitted correctly? Or it took 3 hours to change the plugs?
The difficulty is that do you potentially overtighten and get the blame for knackering the insert or come off when it is tight? Devil you do and the Devil you don't. I have sympathy with the guys that have do this every day and make that judgement.
Quinny said: Steve, I wouldn't dream of calling you uninitiated,and as I'm pretty sure you're playing
advocate, I think in reality you would admit that although changing plugs is a little tricky, it shouldn't be beond the realms of possibility for a main dealer or specialist
to get it right. Just to prove my point, if you would care to turn to page 34 of the Griffith and Chimaera Bible, under the heading Changing spark plugs,
"This should be easy to do, except that the plugs are quite difficult to get at" etc etc. If you don't have a copy, you may borrow mine, but really you should buy your own! You can get it from some guy called Steve Heath Publishing or somthing like that, please let me know if you need further details.
Cheers,
Quinny.
OK OK OK
Except the new edition has this particular problem highlighted...
Leadfoot said: LMAO
To be serious tho' Steve, I would not be at all happy if a dealer/specialist found it too difficult to do the job properly. I certainly couldn't use that excuse, why should they?
To be serious I would tend to agree. The question is the level. The original post complained of lethel brakes. The dealer had told him to be bed them in and this can take some time. So what looked like gross negligence was in relatity the shock of bedding in brakes. Now the communication etc could have been improved but was it gross negligence? Not to the same degree. STill worth a chat with the dealer? Yes. Next time I might say drive the car for a few miles to bed them in.
The trouble is material likes that gets stored in the archives and is taken as truth and there is no counter argument to balance and question.
I reported back that there is a potential difficulty (encountered when dropping in the 520 engine) which means that despite my best intentions I could think I had fitted plugs tight but in reality not. That means that 1. everyone knows to be careful when changing plugs and 2. it might affect the way Pupp approaches the garage. I didn't say not go back and complain. I didn't say that this would be the excuse either.
If the list doesn't want me to contribute then fine. It will save me a lot of time.
Steve
shpub said: The drafts are done and being reviewed.
The book is 425 pages (twice the size of the original) and is effectively a complete rewrite. If the schedules are not delayed, should be out in December.
Amazing, you must be psychic? I recon there's going to be lots of people looking for presents for their family members at just about then.
I had a independent service my Griff, they had it for a week, the last time they rang me they said the bill would be £600 but when I went to pick it up it was £1100, then to top it all off the car was still not running right, they then changed the stepper motor. After driving for about 25mins the car developed a miss fire, I found was the plug lead had come out of the cap and another was loose, not what I expect having just paid out over £1200 including the stepper motor!
Leadfoot said:
If the list doesn't want me to contribute then fine. It will save me a lot of time.
Of course I value your posts steve, as I'm sure does everyone else.
But anytime anyone posts they should be prepared for an opposing opinion from others, it's only healthy debate.
Is this the right room for an argument ?
The way i see it - if you pay for something it should be done properley. £730 is a lot of hard earned which if you think about it...is susbsidisng useless workmanship. Anything other than excellence when servicing a car or anything else for that matter is a crap excuse.
No wonder why this country is useless at almost everything it does, its because its often prepared to settle for something less.
I wonder what would have been said if the wheel nuts were left loose.....?
No wonder why this country is useless at almost everything it does, its because its often prepared to settle for something less.
I wonder what would have been said if the wheel nuts were left loose.....?
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