Sensible info for prospective owners please!
Discussion
I am a prospective TVR owner. I've trawled around this site reading through as many threads as I can to get some realistic idea as to what to expect from a Tiv, (I'm after an S23).
Now, the biggest thing to hit me, as would hit all first timers, is the question of reliability, most of the postings are related to this subject after all. The picture painted is not a good one and has probably steered a few away from ownership.
I think we could do with a thread on here that addresses this issue and, hopefully, corrects a few mis-conceptions. It might even help a few current owners get more from their cars if the advice is good.
TVRs are not unreliable cars, it is the ownership that is the crux of the matter and that is down to one thing and one thing only,...... VERY FEW PEOPLE BUY TIVs AS EVERYDAY CARS!!
The Insurance costs force drivers into limited mileage policies. These neccessitate the cars being off the road for periods of time, which, in turn, requires more time off the road repairing parts that fail as a result of this disuse. There's also a fair number of fair weather drivers too. How many owners run their cars in properly after a winter lay up?........ How many owners jump in on the first sunny day and blat it?
Oil seals, cooling systems and suspensions appear with alarming regularity in the forums, 99% are due to the above.
"TVR only give short warranties, because even they think their cars are unreliable" people cry. No! TVR give short warranties for the previous reasons. They know the new owner isn't going to drive the car for half the year. They are not stupid! They know exactly what will happen in the second year. You lay up a Ford Focus for 6 months a year and then blat it and see who's top of the TUV report.
Insurance has a lot to answer for if you're young and you will have no choice, but if your a bit older and the difference between limited and unlimited mileage is less than £500 quid, go for unlimited. It's costing you that in repairs each year and you get to use it even less too! I'm 41 so I'm laughing, I guess, when it comes to insurance. Do I go for £200 and 6000 miles classic insurance or £430 and 12,000 miles, inc protected NCD, with Tesco?
I guess the most important thing I'm trying to say is use them regularly and they'll be more reliable. If you must limit your mileage, then save some for winter, 20 to 50 miles a week would be good. Get it hot and get it moving! Let the brakes and exhaust keep the chassis dry, don't expect waxoyl to do it all.
I'm sure there's a lot more that can be added here, and I'm hope you will. I would like to think that enough decent input to this thread may result in it being a useful starting point for first timers to this TVR site, or that PH takes the bulk of it to add to the buying guide, or whatever.
Over to you Guys and Gals, 'cos this has all been IMHO.
Andy
Now, the biggest thing to hit me, as would hit all first timers, is the question of reliability, most of the postings are related to this subject after all. The picture painted is not a good one and has probably steered a few away from ownership.
I think we could do with a thread on here that addresses this issue and, hopefully, corrects a few mis-conceptions. It might even help a few current owners get more from their cars if the advice is good.
TVRs are not unreliable cars, it is the ownership that is the crux of the matter and that is down to one thing and one thing only,...... VERY FEW PEOPLE BUY TIVs AS EVERYDAY CARS!!
The Insurance costs force drivers into limited mileage policies. These neccessitate the cars being off the road for periods of time, which, in turn, requires more time off the road repairing parts that fail as a result of this disuse. There's also a fair number of fair weather drivers too. How many owners run their cars in properly after a winter lay up?........ How many owners jump in on the first sunny day and blat it?
Oil seals, cooling systems and suspensions appear with alarming regularity in the forums, 99% are due to the above.
"TVR only give short warranties, because even they think their cars are unreliable" people cry. No! TVR give short warranties for the previous reasons. They know the new owner isn't going to drive the car for half the year. They are not stupid! They know exactly what will happen in the second year. You lay up a Ford Focus for 6 months a year and then blat it and see who's top of the TUV report.
Insurance has a lot to answer for if you're young and you will have no choice, but if your a bit older and the difference between limited and unlimited mileage is less than £500 quid, go for unlimited. It's costing you that in repairs each year and you get to use it even less too! I'm 41 so I'm laughing, I guess, when it comes to insurance. Do I go for £200 and 6000 miles classic insurance or £430 and 12,000 miles, inc protected NCD, with Tesco?
I guess the most important thing I'm trying to say is use them regularly and they'll be more reliable. If you must limit your mileage, then save some for winter, 20 to 50 miles a week would be good. Get it hot and get it moving! Let the brakes and exhaust keep the chassis dry, don't expect waxoyl to do it all.
I'm sure there's a lot more that can be added here, and I'm hope you will. I would like to think that enough decent input to this thread may result in it being a useful starting point for first timers to this TVR site, or that PH takes the bulk of it to add to the buying guide, or whatever.
Over to you Guys and Gals, 'cos this has all been IMHO.
Andy
A mechanic once said to me 'you cant own a TVR and not expect to get your hands dirty'
sure, it's not a Porker with faultless reliability, and you will experience the odd problem, but, and it is a big but,
no other car for the money has this much soul. Every time you drive it you'll feel like you're cool.
If you have red blood in your veins, buy one.
sure, it's not a Porker with faultless reliability, and you will experience the odd problem, but, and it is a big but,
no other car for the money has this much soul. Every time you drive it you'll feel like you're cool.
If you have red blood in your veins, buy one.
Andy, I'm in a similar position - about to go hunting for an S. So here's MY top 3 tips.
1) PH is a fantastic resource and chances are someone will be able to answer any specific question with a bit of time. Trawl the forums... read the whole S series forum.. book mark or print the important bits.
2) Buy a copy of Steve Heath's "bible" - read it, read it again and then think about it and read it again.
3) Get a specialist / knowledgable third party to look at any prospective purchase. Don't buy the first car you see... make sure your head rules the choice, not your heart. The noise these cars make invokes a strange petrolhead gene... the sort of thing that could lead you to buy one that isn't quite as good as it should be.
I've spent just over a year researching (I was waiting till I was 25!) the S series, and have a vast collection of notes and stuff on it. I'm also going to have a daily hack, but that's my choice. Several people have run S's as a daily car... try Shnozz, Johno, M@H for starters.
1) PH is a fantastic resource and chances are someone will be able to answer any specific question with a bit of time. Trawl the forums... read the whole S series forum.. book mark or print the important bits.
2) Buy a copy of Steve Heath's "bible" - read it, read it again and then think about it and read it again.
3) Get a specialist / knowledgable third party to look at any prospective purchase. Don't buy the first car you see... make sure your head rules the choice, not your heart. The noise these cars make invokes a strange petrolhead gene... the sort of thing that could lead you to buy one that isn't quite as good as it should be.
I've spent just over a year researching (I was waiting till I was 25!) the S series, and have a vast collection of notes and stuff on it. I'm also going to have a daily hack, but that's my choice. Several people have run S's as a daily car... try Shnozz, Johno, M@H for starters.
I ran my S for two years.. in that time I had one recovery truck incident when the accelerator cable broke and I couldn't affect a repair at the roadside, and one garage bill when the slave cylinder on the clutch went.. that was it. 
As you have identified, the cars that have been maintained well are the ones to buy.. and by their very nature, daily drivers usually tend to be better maintained than the dustsheet virgins that sit in garages all year.
Cheers
Matt.
Edited to say.. mine wasn't an everyday driver Podie, just every day it wasn't raining
>> Edited by M@H on Friday 8th November 17:05
As you have identified, the cars that have been maintained well are the ones to buy.. and by their very nature, daily drivers usually tend to be better maintained than the dustsheet virgins that sit in garages all year.
Cheers
Matt.
Edited to say.. mine wasn't an everyday driver Podie, just every day it wasn't raining
>> Edited by M@H on Friday 8th November 17:05
Andy,
I assume from your posting that you are suggesting that the part-time use/ fair weather driving/ restricted mileage insurance of some TVR owners results in a lot of the "reliability" issues with TVRs.
I have a 15 month old TVR Chimaera and the first six months of ownership were not good - one problem after another. However, the last 9 months of driving every day (9000 miles)and leaving the car outside in all weather has been completely without any problems.
The car starts first time and runs through the traffic into and out of central Brum Mon to Fri and a good blat out and about on Sat and Sun. If you ask me today whether I would have another TVR and the answer is YES.
Back to your points which I think are absolutely valid and do result in a distorted view of TVRs and their reliability. Although, like all low volume sports cars, TVRs can be a pain to get sorted from new on some occasions.
I assume from your posting that you are suggesting that the part-time use/ fair weather driving/ restricted mileage insurance of some TVR owners results in a lot of the "reliability" issues with TVRs.
I have a 15 month old TVR Chimaera and the first six months of ownership were not good - one problem after another. However, the last 9 months of driving every day (9000 miles)and leaving the car outside in all weather has been completely without any problems.
The car starts first time and runs through the traffic into and out of central Brum Mon to Fri and a good blat out and about on Sat and Sun. If you ask me today whether I would have another TVR and the answer is YES.
Back to your points which I think are absolutely valid and do result in a distorted view of TVRs and their reliability. Although, like all low volume sports cars, TVRs can be a pain to get sorted from new on some occasions.
VERY FEW PEOPLE BUY TIVs AS EVERYDAY CARS!!
Well we did. And, I think, more and more people today do as well. That's why you hear more stories of unreliability - because people actually use the cars and when they let them down the consequences are serious..instead of just a bit inconvenient.
But actually...my comment should be taken as praise for TVR. People really do believe that you CAN have a TVR as an everyday car. And, for the VERY most part, its actually TRUE.
My wife relies on her Chimaera everyday.
It let her down once...and we had a Vauxhall Cavalier they made by the million that did that.
Sure..they need more fettling than other cars (the litany of little things that cost money to fix goes on and on) but then they have their compensations. Nothing for the purchase price goes like a TVR or sounds like a TVR.
So being sensible for prospective owners:
If you want one. Get one. They're ACE. BUT...you have to look at 2K a year on servicing and maintenance and insurance could be a grand too. If you can live with that..and for Ferrari bashing performance you should be able to...then you won't be dissapointed.
Oh..BTW..everyone has stories about the one that only cost £300 for its service.
Hi Matt
No real question, dumb really, just hoping to get you guys started on the best or worst way to own and run a Tiv. I've learnt a lot from reading the Forums, but not everyone has the luxury of being online all day, to sift through the good and the bad, and it would be nice to read something to dispell the unreliability myth. Up to now, all I've seen to make anyone want to own one is that they make you smile alot!
Scattered about the S series pages (which is what I'm after) are some useful comments from johno and a few others about better ways to run them, but they take a lot of finding. It would be nice to find all these opinions in one place though.
Then again you're probably right it has no point, so I will delete it.
Andy
No real question, dumb really, just hoping to get you guys started on the best or worst way to own and run a Tiv. I've learnt a lot from reading the Forums, but not everyone has the luxury of being online all day, to sift through the good and the bad, and it would be nice to read something to dispell the unreliability myth. Up to now, all I've seen to make anyone want to own one is that they make you smile alot!
Scattered about the S series pages (which is what I'm after) are some useful comments from johno and a few others about better ways to run them, but they take a lot of finding. It would be nice to find all these opinions in one place though.
Then again you're probably right it has no point, so I will delete it.
Andy
I have only owned my Chim for 2 months or 3000 miles and it is my daily driver, and I went through the same questions as you are. Those who talk about unreliable cars generally do not own them. No problems with mine, a little bit of oil and the odd clean. It's kept on the streets too, does not leak, but just look at lots when buying as there can be some "dogs" out there.
Having been through it, I can honestly say go for it, you might curse the car at times, but the good times will far outweigh those times.
Having been through it, I can honestly say go for it, you might curse the car at times, but the good times will far outweigh those times.
how does that work then?I'm on my second TVR. The frst was a 1980 Tasmin, a very early one, before the factory even worked out what they were building! When I bought it, it was 16 years old and had done 99000 miles. That's, er... 6200 a year on average. Rather less than a similar-age Granada would probably have done. But then most Granadas are probably in a scrap yard at 16, not still being cherished and having wads of cash thrown at them.
It had a major engine problem when I bought it; this I believe was down to being thrashed either when cold or after a long lay-up. Lack of mechanical sympathy on someone's part, not mine, but it wasn't a 'TVR' bit that broke, it was a Ford bit.
I now have an '87 model Wedge, so you could draw comparisons with similar-aged S series cars. It's now done 104000 miles (I bought it 2 years ago with 96000 on), at age 16 it's averaged... 6500 a year. Guess what, the engine was broken when I bought it. Not a TVR part though; a Rover part. Had the same engine been in a 2-ton Range Rover I'd have thought twice about buying it in the first place (thoughts of poor servicing, pulling horseboxes up cliffs, that kind of thing).
My issue is: it's not the cars, it's the owners - some of them - that are unreliable. You only need to take a cursory glance through Pistonheads at some of the shite that is talked to get an idea. There are people on here I wouldn't buy a Tonka toy from, to judge by their lack of technical knowledge. Imply from that: lack of mechanical sympathy.
I'm not criticisng folk with money, incidentally; just because they have the brains to earn enough wad to buy the toys they want and then have deep enough pockets to keep on forking out when things don't work. How often do they themselves cause the problems in the first place, perhaps without realising it; certainly without the balls to admit they made a mistake in the first place, for fear that folk like me will suss them and refuse to buy their car when they get fed up and move on to the next flavour of the month.
People think I'm loaded because I have a TVR; fact is, I'm NOT loaded BECAUSE I have a TVR. I spend more every month on insurance, bank loans and petrol for my car than I do on mortgage, insurance and decor for my house. If the car breaks, I fix it myself with as much good grace as I can. I don't moan about the product; I'm realistic. Of course I knew what to expect when I bought the second TVR, I'd had 4 years of the first one!
I'm lucky in that I don't live far from work, so when I used the Tasmin for my daily drive, had it broken it wsn't such a big problem. Thing is, apart from a failed fuel pump (a Bosch part, not a TVR one, and caused by a huge pothole in the road) it WAS relaible. The current car is the same. I've had some daft issues with it, but it's NEVER left me stranded.
My company van has done 90000 miles in three years: it has dodgy PAS, faulty wipers, a chipped screen, is rusting in places a T-reg van shouldn't be. It's been 100% reliable, however. But will someone still be caring for it in 13 years? Not on your life.
Ian
It had a major engine problem when I bought it; this I believe was down to being thrashed either when cold or after a long lay-up. Lack of mechanical sympathy on someone's part, not mine, but it wasn't a 'TVR' bit that broke, it was a Ford bit.
I now have an '87 model Wedge, so you could draw comparisons with similar-aged S series cars. It's now done 104000 miles (I bought it 2 years ago with 96000 on), at age 16 it's averaged... 6500 a year. Guess what, the engine was broken when I bought it. Not a TVR part though; a Rover part. Had the same engine been in a 2-ton Range Rover I'd have thought twice about buying it in the first place (thoughts of poor servicing, pulling horseboxes up cliffs, that kind of thing).
My issue is: it's not the cars, it's the owners - some of them - that are unreliable. You only need to take a cursory glance through Pistonheads at some of the shite that is talked to get an idea. There are people on here I wouldn't buy a Tonka toy from, to judge by their lack of technical knowledge. Imply from that: lack of mechanical sympathy.
I'm not criticisng folk with money, incidentally; just because they have the brains to earn enough wad to buy the toys they want and then have deep enough pockets to keep on forking out when things don't work. How often do they themselves cause the problems in the first place, perhaps without realising it; certainly without the balls to admit they made a mistake in the first place, for fear that folk like me will suss them and refuse to buy their car when they get fed up and move on to the next flavour of the month.
People think I'm loaded because I have a TVR; fact is, I'm NOT loaded BECAUSE I have a TVR. I spend more every month on insurance, bank loans and petrol for my car than I do on mortgage, insurance and decor for my house. If the car breaks, I fix it myself with as much good grace as I can. I don't moan about the product; I'm realistic. Of course I knew what to expect when I bought the second TVR, I'd had 4 years of the first one!
I'm lucky in that I don't live far from work, so when I used the Tasmin for my daily drive, had it broken it wsn't such a big problem. Thing is, apart from a failed fuel pump (a Bosch part, not a TVR one, and caused by a huge pothole in the road) it WAS relaible. The current car is the same. I've had some daft issues with it, but it's NEVER left me stranded.
My company van has done 90000 miles in three years: it has dodgy PAS, faulty wipers, a chipped screen, is rusting in places a T-reg van shouldn't be. It's been 100% reliable, however. But will someone still be caring for it in 13 years? Not on your life.
Ian
Loudpedal wrote: 'sure, it's not a Porker with faultless reliability'
I'll just remind the readership that in the recent C4 Driven tests comparing Tamora vs Boxster, the score was 2:0 to TVR. Both Tamoras were unscathed, whilst both Porsches expired with broken clutches. The one you saw in the final vote had to be *pushed* there. But the programme made no mention of this, so the legend of Porsche reliability marches on. BUT, had even a tiny piece of trim dared to come loose on a Tamora, you can be sure the presenters would be prising it about with howls of 'unreliable TVR!'
My personal experience of TVR is owning and running 3 TVRs over 5.5 years. The worst problem I've had has been a flat battery - and that's happened on most cars I've had including 2 BMWs and a Merc. I would say, though, that TVRs do have Achilles heels - little things that need to be kept an eye on and, if left to deterioriate, can then lead to problems. But do your homework, see some S2/3s, talk to the owners, learn the Achilles heels, buy a good one, look after it and there's no reason why it shouldn't be as good as any other car.
You can't chicken out now!
I'll just remind the readership that in the recent C4 Driven tests comparing Tamora vs Boxster, the score was 2:0 to TVR. Both Tamoras were unscathed, whilst both Porsches expired with broken clutches. The one you saw in the final vote had to be *pushed* there. But the programme made no mention of this, so the legend of Porsche reliability marches on. BUT, had even a tiny piece of trim dared to come loose on a Tamora, you can be sure the presenters would be prising it about with howls of 'unreliable TVR!'
My personal experience of TVR is owning and running 3 TVRs over 5.5 years. The worst problem I've had has been a flat battery - and that's happened on most cars I've had including 2 BMWs and a Merc. I would say, though, that TVRs do have Achilles heels - little things that need to be kept an eye on and, if left to deterioriate, can then lead to problems. But do your homework, see some S2/3s, talk to the owners, learn the Achilles heels, buy a good one, look after it and there's no reason why it shouldn't be as good as any other car.
You can't chicken out now!
I jumped into TVR ownership with both feet about a year and a half ago - and have never looked back. My car is my daily drive - it's perfectly practical to do so.
At this time of year on wet / leafy roads you have to back off a bit. If a dry day comes along and I can use full throttle in 1st to 3rd gear I still find myself clenching my teeth with the vigour of the acceleration.
At this time of year on wet / leafy roads you have to back off a bit. If a dry day comes along and I can use full throttle in 1st to 3rd gear I still find myself clenching my teeth with the vigour of the acceleration.
MikeyT said:
BUT...you have to look at 2K a year on servicing and maintenance
This is a Chim we're talking about Don, not a Cerbera!
Edited to give wedg1e atoo!
>> Edited by MikeyT on Friday 8th November 23:14
I'm just telling it how it is. Its not a criticism of the cars. Stuff goes wrong and we either fix it or get it fixed right away so that whatever it might be doesn't have any knock-on ill effects.
Friends with Cerbs tell me that they pay more than that.
And you've go to remember...our Chimaera is used daily..so stuff does wear out.
I also think its excellent that people like wedg1e have the skills and dedication to look after their cars themselves.
Although I'd suggest that most Tiv owners are well capable of doing most of the usual stuff you'd expect to do to look after a car properly..(fluids, pressures and so on).after all no TVR is like, say, an A class Merc or a Vauxhall Vectra...where (as publicised on PH recently) owners expect not to open the bonnet between services. Amazingly largely they can actually do that!
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