brakes and roll bars
Discussion
Brakes are fine left as standard. It's really easy to lock the fronts, new bigger brakes won't make the wheels lock later; you need stickier tyres for that. I fitted 4 pot fronts as part of a 5 stud conversion and the feel of the brakes initially worsened due to the drilled discs buzzing the brake pedal. Now they are run-in they are better but the tyres are bigger all round too so I can't claim the brakes have made any difference. They do look good though.
I recently got a 285mm disc and 4-pot caliper upgrade for my Grif. IMHO, it is only worth while for trackdays and/or extremely spirited driving (probably so spirited as to be reckless and/or illegal). I do trackdays, so I'm very happy with it, but it is less practical for regular use on public roads. I found to old 260mm brakes fine for normal road use, and mainly upgraded to eliminate fade.
I have 285s on my Griff for many years now (guinea pig for the Tower View kit) and the braking was improved dramatically with a lot more bite and feel. While lock up is essentially a factor of tyre stickness, feeling where that point is is more due to the brakes.
Yes the standard set up is Ok but it can be improved and the 285 kit is a nice compromise. Big enough for track days etc without going over the top.
The original setup were fine but prone to fading IMHO if used repeatedly hard. If you want better braking it is a good way to go.
Yes the standard set up is Ok but it can be improved and the 285 kit is a nice compromise. Big enough for track days etc without going over the top.
The original setup were fine but prone to fading IMHO if used repeatedly hard. If you want better braking it is a good way to go.
tvrbob said:Not all down to tyre width.
Brakes are fine left as standard. It's really easy to lock the fronts, new bigger brakes won't make the wheels lock later; you need stickier tyres for that. I fitted 4 pot fronts as part of a 5 stud conversion and the feel of the brakes initially worsened due to the drilled discs buzzing the brake pedal. Now they are run-in they are better but the tyres are bigger all round too so I can't claim the brakes have made any difference. They do look good though.
If you are a press-on kind of driver you will soon notice the std 260mm (if that is what you have) are pants.
285 are a good improvement for sensible dosh - (only two brackets and new rotors), bigger than this and 4 port (AP or other wise can if properly setup Utterly Bonkers - but really only needed if car has a serious amount more oomph -they should be AWESOME from the word go if done right). Mate has had the 5 stud and TVR 300mm conversion (pres alloy bellss) and they are grabby and not very nice - so something not been done right.
Fast road 285mm spot on - but get braided hoese other wise you only get half the benefit.
jellison said:
If you are a press-on kind of driver you will soon notice the std 260mm (if that is what you have) are pants.
tell that to Simon Bowes (orange Griff in the TVRCC series) who is a "press-on kind of driver"! He has 260mm discs and standard callipers. To stop the fade you need quality discs, pads, fluid and hoses. I suppose if you drive flat out on the track for 30 mins or more you'll experience fade problems (with just about anything that'll fit in a 15" wheel) but the standard size brakes can be made to work extremely well.GarryM said:Do you have his Email!?
If you are a press-on kind of driver you will soon notice the std 260mm (if that is what you have) are pants.
if that is the crap that you have to run then that is the crap you HAVE to run! My TR4 can run rings round a std Griff500 and would be similar to a TVR Challege spec one and that has 285mm discs as std (42 years old car - will have big AP at some point) - std stuff is Crap.You can run whatever brakes you like in the TVRCC .. there is a penalty for going bigger but it's not massive. Fact is there's little point going bigger because the std stuff with decent pads and fluid is up to the job.
Most people get brake fade on track because they don't realise how fast their car can go around corners .. novice drivers normally complain about poor brakes because they shed too much speed for corners and their braking system maybe isn't in tip top condition ..
if you're having trouble with the std 260mm discs and you're using good quality components in good condition on a std car then it's your driving that's at fault not the brakes!! My advice s you only nee upgrade if you have sticky tyres or massive tyres, or can't drive.
I've had the brakes on my S glowing red hot during a drift competition and the pedal was still rock solid and the brakes still working properly. If you have components that can withstand the temps it's not an issue.
Most people get brake fade on track because they don't realise how fast their car can go around corners .. novice drivers normally complain about poor brakes because they shed too much speed for corners and their braking system maybe isn't in tip top condition ..
if you're having trouble with the std 260mm discs and you're using good quality components in good condition on a std car then it's your driving that's at fault not the brakes!! My advice s you only nee upgrade if you have sticky tyres or massive tyres, or can't drive.
I've had the brakes on my S glowing red hot during a drift competition and the pedal was still rock solid and the brakes still working properly. If you have components that can withstand the temps it's not an issue.
I sorted out a 285mm 4 pot brembo setup with Ian at Godspeed Motorsport. In the end I sold the kit to a good mate and he had it fitted to his car. I felt was a big improvement on standard in terms of feel when I drove his car. I never felt happy that the front contributing enough to stopping, particularly from higher speeds, on my chim' 500. It never felt like there was enough bite at the front end. With the kit on the bias was more to my liking. I agree with the point standard setup can be made to work well, but what of the comments re. excessive rear bias? Do I take it you don't agree with this point of view then Julian and think it's right as standard, or something else?
Steve
Steve
If you have a problem with bias fit a bias valve .. 50 pounds and maybe a couple of hours fitting and bleeding ..
what we're discussing here though is teh ability of the std brakes to stop the car on repeated applications .. they can do that just fine, so the quality of the components and their ability to get the job done is fine in my opinion ..
yes there is a bias issue, but that's nothng to do with the fade problems people seem to be having for some reason .. they're two separate events. Fitting a big brake conversion is using a hammer to crack a nut IMO .. there are cases where big brakes are sensible .. but I don't consider that's on a std car unless the driver (or car) really can't get round corners properly, in which case more driver training is in order with particular reference to braking, or sort out why the cornering potential is so poor.
what we're discussing here though is teh ability of the std brakes to stop the car on repeated applications .. they can do that just fine, so the quality of the components and their ability to get the job done is fine in my opinion ..
yes there is a bias issue, but that's nothng to do with the fade problems people seem to be having for some reason .. they're two separate events. Fitting a big brake conversion is using a hammer to crack a nut IMO .. there are cases where big brakes are sensible .. but I don't consider that's on a std car unless the driver (or car) really can't get round corners properly, in which case more driver training is in order with particular reference to braking, or sort out why the cornering potential is so poor.
There's nothing at all wrong with the design of the standard brakes. If you dont feel the current brakes are working properly fit braided hoses, flush through with DOT 5.1 fluid and fit new discs and pads, the important bit is BED THE PADS IN according to the manufacturers instructions. I'm amazed how many people don't bother or don't know to do this, no wonder so many people say the standard brakes are cr@p. The only reason I can see for upgrading the brakes is if the standard brakes are in good working order (fresh fluid, the right pad compound, sliders working correctly, good pad thickness etc) and you're still overheating them. I'd go so far as to say if you are cooking the standard brakes on public roads there's something wrong with them, or with the way you're driving.
If you need upgraded brakes then go for it, but I think for most people they are just a fashion statement, and they make a very expensive one.
If you need upgraded brakes then go for it, but I think for most people they are just a fashion statement, and they make a very expensive one.
Steve_T said:
I agree with the point standard setup can be made to work well, but what of the comments re. excessive rear bias?
Steve
I know I'm in the minority but I think the standard bias is fine. I didn't 4 years ago: I was concerned about the chirping I was getting from the rear tyres and the fact that it all felt a bit twitchy when hard on the brakes. Reading many comments on here about excessive rear bias confirmed my thoughts. However after having the brakes stripped down to make sure there was nothing wrong with them and fitting good pads, fluid and hoses and most importantly getting better at using them, I like the fact that all four wheels are doing the maximum possible to slow the car. I can still lock the fronts before the rears so I reckon the bias is right for maximum braking.
It's interesting to see that many aftermarket brake upgrades for other cars aim to increase the rear bias in order to improve stopping distances! Usually, manufacturers have a little too much front bias as it makes the cars more predictable.
The original V8S brakes are the same as the ones used on the Chim/Griff 4.0 (and maybe other models too) with 240mm vented on the front and 250mm solid on the rear. I wasn't particularly aware of any problems with the brake balane, although I certainly learned to keep it straight and level under heavy braking. But when I fitted 285mm discs on the front I really noticed the improvement in the brake balance, if anything it tended to straighten up very very slightly under braking (slight bias to the front) which is very reassuring when you are piling up to a bend. I think it would be a mistake to move the bias any further forwards than this, which is why I recommend 285mm as the biggest upgrade on the front unless you are taking steps to restore the brake balance.
Not quite true Pete. All Chimaeras from about 1996 had the larget 260/273mm disc set up as the factory standardised on the 500 setup.
The brakes are fine etc etc etc. However the 285 solution is even better and if someone wants to fit them fine. On my car, I noticed the difference straightaway with a lot more feel and bite. That gave me a bit more confidence in the brakes as well. However I have tracked the car several times before the upgrade and found that with a bit of looking after the brakes were fine. At Mallory with two big braking zones, doing a slightly slower lap to allow the brakes to cool worked wonders. However with the 285 upgrade, the braking performance was better and the feel improved.
As for this learn to drive and take more speed through and you use the brakes less... it is a bit simplistic. Yes I agree partially but taking more speed through a corner usually means more speed down onto a straight. At some point there will be a big brake as there is a corner where you need to scrub off speed to enter the corner correctly. As a result, the brakes are asked to do a lot more work. I'm thinking of places like Mallory and the hairpin. Take speed through Gerrards and it follows you through the Esses to the hairpin where you have to knock speed down. Like take 90-100mph off. Take less speed through and the drop is only about 60-70 and far less work for the brakes to do. Taking more speed through will reduce the braking load at some corners but will significantly increase it at others. The car will be going a lot lot quicker though... Driving style is important and looking after the car and brakes is part of the craft.
BTW I think nearly everyone who is saying the standard brakes are fine have actually got big brake upgrades...
The brakes are fine etc etc etc. However the 285 solution is even better and if someone wants to fit them fine. On my car, I noticed the difference straightaway with a lot more feel and bite. That gave me a bit more confidence in the brakes as well. However I have tracked the car several times before the upgrade and found that with a bit of looking after the brakes were fine. At Mallory with two big braking zones, doing a slightly slower lap to allow the brakes to cool worked wonders. However with the 285 upgrade, the braking performance was better and the feel improved.
As for this learn to drive and take more speed through and you use the brakes less... it is a bit simplistic. Yes I agree partially but taking more speed through a corner usually means more speed down onto a straight. At some point there will be a big brake as there is a corner where you need to scrub off speed to enter the corner correctly. As a result, the brakes are asked to do a lot more work. I'm thinking of places like Mallory and the hairpin. Take speed through Gerrards and it follows you through the Esses to the hairpin where you have to knock speed down. Like take 90-100mph off. Take less speed through and the drop is only about 60-70 and far less work for the brakes to do. Taking more speed through will reduce the braking load at some corners but will significantly increase it at others. The car will be going a lot lot quicker though... Driving style is important and looking after the car and brakes is part of the craft.
BTW I think nearly everyone who is saying the standard brakes are fine have actually got big brake upgrades...
Quite right Steve, I meant to say *early* 4.0 etc.
The issue of cornering speed is an interesting one, but I agree with the others who have said that in general the slower you take the corners the more heat you put into the brakes on average throughout a lap. If you think about it, the slower you enter the straight the more time you spend on the power before you reach the braking point, and that determines the amount of energy gained in that straight which has to be dissipated by the brakes at some point.
There are good reasons for upgrading the brakes. I've lost count of the number of times I've changed mine. But I still think that the standard brakes are more than adequate for any reasonable use on public roads, and if you cook them on public roads I would suspect either the brakes weren't in good condition to start with or there's something wrong with your driving technique. Put the car on a track where you can push it much harder for longer and the standard brakes are good for quite high power levels if you look after them, of course if you don't look after them then then you can cook the sort of upgraded brakes we're talking about too.
At the end of the day, upgraded brakes are a cure for a problem, and if you have that problem then it makes sense. Rather pointless otherwise though.
The issue of cornering speed is an interesting one, but I agree with the others who have said that in general the slower you take the corners the more heat you put into the brakes on average throughout a lap. If you think about it, the slower you enter the straight the more time you spend on the power before you reach the braking point, and that determines the amount of energy gained in that straight which has to be dissipated by the brakes at some point.
There are good reasons for upgrading the brakes. I've lost count of the number of times I've changed mine. But I still think that the standard brakes are more than adequate for any reasonable use on public roads, and if you cook them on public roads I would suspect either the brakes weren't in good condition to start with or there's something wrong with your driving technique. Put the car on a track where you can push it much harder for longer and the standard brakes are good for quite high power levels if you look after them, of course if you don't look after them then then you can cook the sort of upgraded brakes we're talking about too.
At the end of the day, upgraded brakes are a cure for a problem, and if you have that problem then it makes sense. Rather pointless otherwise though.
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