Build Location
Discussion
To emphasise before we start this is NOT a forum to discuss the future of TVR since that is being done to death elsewhere on the site.
The question is how important is it to most TVR owners that the car is truly British (as opposed to British in the "I'm actually built in South Africa" Noble kind of manner).
Personally I love the fact that my car is truly British and it gave me great pride in France recently having Frenchies admiring something as English as a full fry up.
However would other owners be more incentivised by the possible price cuts that could be fed through?
The question is how important is it to most TVR owners that the car is truly British (as opposed to British in the "I'm actually built in South Africa" Noble kind of manner).
Personally I love the fact that my car is truly British and it gave me great pride in France recently having Frenchies admiring something as English as a full fry up.
However would other owners be more incentivised by the possible price cuts that could be fed through?
I myself think of it like this.
In an ideal world i would love our TVR to be built in the UK, no questions.
However this weeks postings have been full of lots of speculation coming out of Blackpool about how the company has been run, the high turnover of management, the bad debt with suppliers, the joke of the PR dept.
These factors have contributed to the state of TVR, but to be honest it is so difficult to make hand built cars that can be price competitive. I have previoulsy mentioned the numbers that TVR would need to make to be profitable.
Lets assume that the factory with 350 staff can make 500 cars per year. The labour bill will be about 5 mil, then their will be the fixed overheads lets say a contribution of 1 Mil. You then have development costs, tooling contributions, marketing (motor show must cost them 200 grand) for arguments sake lets underestimate the overheads including labour to 6.5 Million
so how many cars do you need to make to Break Even?
If they made 650 cars!!! And let me assure you they are not making 10 grand every car... i would be surprised if they made four. At this point i would like phil (bosscerbera) to comment, as someone who was once at TVR and who have respect on here.
It is a sad thing that manufacturing is dying in this country but we have to face up to it.. rather than saying we would walk away from the marque!!! This is short sighted IMO... I would like to see the marque thriving
In an ideal world i would love our TVR to be built in the UK, no questions.
However this weeks postings have been full of lots of speculation coming out of Blackpool about how the company has been run, the high turnover of management, the bad debt with suppliers, the joke of the PR dept.
These factors have contributed to the state of TVR, but to be honest it is so difficult to make hand built cars that can be price competitive. I have previoulsy mentioned the numbers that TVR would need to make to be profitable.
Lets assume that the factory with 350 staff can make 500 cars per year. The labour bill will be about 5 mil, then their will be the fixed overheads lets say a contribution of 1 Mil. You then have development costs, tooling contributions, marketing (motor show must cost them 200 grand) for arguments sake lets underestimate the overheads including labour to 6.5 Million
so how many cars do you need to make to Break Even?
If they made 650 cars!!! And let me assure you they are not making 10 grand every car... i would be surprised if they made four. At this point i would like phil (bosscerbera) to comment, as someone who was once at TVR and who have respect on here.
It is a sad thing that manufacturing is dying in this country but we have to face up to it.. rather than saying we would walk away from the marque!!! This is short sighted IMO... I would like to see the marque thriving
If it is done properly I don't think I would mind if certain parts of car was manufactured elsewhere, at the end of the day gearboxes, wheels and other components are bought in and where are they made? I don't know and don't think about it. I am not 100% sure it is all about location, but maybe approach - what parts should be outsourced etc.
However imo it should go something like this:
Design, Engineering, Assembly, Painting & Trimming - which should all be in the UK and owned 100% by TVR but not necessarily in Blackpool but at the end of the day I would have thought labour costs would be very competitive there as anywhere else and surely they have the necessary skill base
I am a firm believer in the Speed 6, owning both a 4.0HC Chimaera 1995 and a Tuscan 4.0 Red Rose 2001 and having the infamous Typhon on order, and I would actually like the production of those to continue under a TVR owned company and within the UK and be used for an entry level car.
The chassis should possibly be outsourced and with the need of a more flexible solution perhaps hydro should be approached for the development and manufacture of this - would we really worry where this is produced as long it is a 'TVR' design & specification and 'unique' to them
Body panels could be outsourced perhaps some of the ex factory workers should consider setting up a GRP moulding facility to supply ready body panels along the lines of Superform for Aston Martin, Morgan etc. I suggest sticking with GRP for cost and also I am not sure TVR suits aluminium and carbon is too expensive for the price points they need to meet.
Some sort of Works Services & Heritage Parts also needs to be fully established to support existing customers and TVR's heritage of cars and this should be kept in Blackpool, that's where they were built and the skills & knowledge is to keep these cars running for a very long time yet. Services they should offer are - service, body repair, modifications & upgrades and full restorations & rebuilds.
However imo it should go something like this:
Design, Engineering, Assembly, Painting & Trimming - which should all be in the UK and owned 100% by TVR but not necessarily in Blackpool but at the end of the day I would have thought labour costs would be very competitive there as anywhere else and surely they have the necessary skill base
I am a firm believer in the Speed 6, owning both a 4.0HC Chimaera 1995 and a Tuscan 4.0 Red Rose 2001 and having the infamous Typhon on order, and I would actually like the production of those to continue under a TVR owned company and within the UK and be used for an entry level car.
The chassis should possibly be outsourced and with the need of a more flexible solution perhaps hydro should be approached for the development and manufacture of this - would we really worry where this is produced as long it is a 'TVR' design & specification and 'unique' to them
Body panels could be outsourced perhaps some of the ex factory workers should consider setting up a GRP moulding facility to supply ready body panels along the lines of Superform for Aston Martin, Morgan etc. I suggest sticking with GRP for cost and also I am not sure TVR suits aluminium and carbon is too expensive for the price points they need to meet.
Some sort of Works Services & Heritage Parts also needs to be fully established to support existing customers and TVR's heritage of cars and this should be kept in Blackpool, that's where they were built and the skills & knowledge is to keep these cars running for a very long time yet. Services they should offer are - service, body repair, modifications & upgrades and full restorations & rebuilds.
So, is the Honda Civic "British"? (and others built here). Are half the F1 cars "British"? They're nearly all built here. Is a Fiesta British? That isn't built here - and hasn't been for many years.
To me it has to have Design & Engineering led by Brits to be British. I don't care where it's made really (except that Factory Tours would be awkward if it was built in Taiwan.....) Providing you get the British "feel" from the D&E and manufacturing is lead by Brits it would do me. Maltese Nobel? That seems to work.
Al IMHO of course....
To me it has to have Design & Engineering led by Brits to be British. I don't care where it's made really (except that Factory Tours would be awkward if it was built in Taiwan.....) Providing you get the British "feel" from the D&E and manufacturing is lead by Brits it would do me. Maltese Nobel? That seems to work.
Al IMHO of course....
I'm not trying to upset anbody here, but personally, I don't care where any of my cars are made. I'm into cars purely for the cars as they stand, no patriotism, no sense of national pride, just out and out performance
If a car was made on the moon, by Martians, I'd buy it, if it gave the right bang for the buck.
I bought a TVR for its capabilities as a car, I'll forgive it for being British, if that means its annoying little foibles but I don't consider it part of our heritage.
I'm proud of my TVR, but mainly when it's shown a clean pair of heels to the car next to me at the traffic lights, not necessarily for where it was made.
I have great sympathy with the workers at TVR, as people who are going to lose their jobs, its a tough thing to happen to anyone, and just for their sake, it would be nice if TVR was staying put.
As for any other reasons regarding TVR going abroad, if it means it comes back, better, meaner, faster and hopefully cheaper, then bring it on
As I stated at the start, I'm not trying to stir up trouble, all just IMHO
If a car was made on the moon, by Martians, I'd buy it, if it gave the right bang for the buck.
I bought a TVR for its capabilities as a car, I'll forgive it for being British, if that means its annoying little foibles
but I don't consider it part of our heritage. I'm proud of my TVR, but mainly when it's shown a clean pair of heels to the car next to me at the traffic lights, not necessarily for where it was made.
I have great sympathy with the workers at TVR, as people who are going to lose their jobs, its a tough thing to happen to anyone, and just for their sake, it would be nice if TVR was staying put.
As for any other reasons regarding TVR going abroad, if it means it comes back, better, meaner, faster and hopefully cheaper, then bring it on
As I stated at the start, I'm not trying to stir up trouble, all just IMHO
Certainly IMHO it has to be assembled in the UK to be "British". BMW knew this, which is why they set up a new factory for Rolls-Royce in Goodwood. All the bits come in from elsewhere, but they're put together in Crewe. I assume all the "craft" type bits (leather, wood, etc.) are done there too.
But I'd also prefer if it stayed in Blackpool. TVRs are, after all, Blackpool Rockets so it would be better if they remained there.
>> Edited by carl_w on Tuesday 25th April 09:49
But I'd also prefer if it stayed in Blackpool. TVRs are, after all, Blackpool Rockets so it would be better if they remained there.
>> Edited by carl_w on Tuesday 25th April 09:49
wheeljack888 said:
Barbra
I don't wish to be rude, but please check your maths (especially how much each car costs)
Also it's going to take a hell of lot more than a few fag-packet calculations to convince me that production has to move abroad.
Phil
just to add my twopenn'orth...
I used to fairly regularly do business cases for car projects, both low volume niche vehicles for OEMs, and a couple for complete new low volume performance cars.
In general, if the sums don't work on the back of a fag packet, then they won't work when yu gte into the detail either.
Incidentally, Barbra, your wage assumption is way too high.
I was at Morgan recently and although wings and bonnets were bought in, the wooden frame and the rest of the ally work is done in house. Morgan has been clever enough to see merits in both options rather than assuming one to be the best. Numerous American fanatics comes over and gets to see workers manually cutting out their bodywork or fashioning a frame whilst they also enjoy the precision and economies of buying in prefabricated panels. The overall impression was one of a friendly, quirky, bustling and effective manufacturing facility. I was impressed anyway.
So, in answering your question... Yes it's possible and desirable to manufacture in the UK. Also the logistics involved in buying in from abroad IMO outlay the benefits. Noble has enjoyed some success with his set up although he is much less flexible as a result. I wouldn’t mind betting that some moulds for the M15 that were half way to SA are now coming back for some styling mods. If there not then this kind of proves the theory.
Someone mentioned that the French all seem to drive French cars, Germans buy German etc. This country was once great but the current tendency is to buy into a brand with perceived Kudos, not to champion your home team. BMW drivers I’m talking about you. That said I suppose we don’t have a lot of choice now. Sh1t
So, in answering your question... Yes it's possible and desirable to manufacture in the UK. Also the logistics involved in buying in from abroad IMO outlay the benefits. Noble has enjoyed some success with his set up although he is much less flexible as a result. I wouldn’t mind betting that some moulds for the M15 that were half way to SA are now coming back for some styling mods. If there not then this kind of proves the theory.
Someone mentioned that the French all seem to drive French cars, Germans buy German etc. This country was once great but the current tendency is to buy into a brand with perceived Kudos, not to champion your home team. BMW drivers I’m talking about you. That said I suppose we don’t have a lot of choice now. Sh1t
NDT
I don't disagree that you use fag-packet calcs for getting a ballpark figure. (When designing I will sometimes do a few simple fluids or stress calcs just to know I'm roughly OK before sending it off to CAE for the full-blown analysis). However, my impression, of Barbra's posts have consistently been "MUST MOVE FACTORY ABROAD TO BE CHEAPER" & "MANUFACTURING IS DEAD IN THIS COUNTRY". I'm pretty damned certain it's more complicated than that.
But if it's OK I will indulge in a few fag-packet calcs to question some of the numbers above. Say the car sells for a mean price of £40000, take VAT off leaves ~£34000, take off dealer margin and costs (say £5000) leaves ~£29000. Thats ~£29000 per car for TVR to bring raw material in, do their stuff, and then deliver to the dealer.
Make 650 cars at ~£29000 thats a cashflow of ~£18.9M into the factory and therefore the break-even figure for costs, not £6.5M as was quoted above.
Whether they can build a car for £29000 and still make a profit I don't know. My own instincts say they can't with their own engines but could with one bought-in. In a earlier thread I suggested the soon to be released V6 Duratec 3.5litre could be used for an entry level vehicle.
Back on to the overseas thing. Noble makes it's rolling chassis's in South Africa, but contrary to popular belief it wasn't done there solely for cost reasons. That facility (Hi-Tech Automotive) had been making high quality Cobra and GT40 replicas for the US for years before Noble came along. The necessary production expertise and skills were there ready and waiting.
It is a completely different kettle of fish to build a new facility in eastern europe or wherever and just start making cars of acceptable quality. To do that you need to do one of 2 things. Either take all the skill out of making the cars, which means employing lots of designers & engineers and spending loads of capital on tooling (sounds familiar!) Or still have the car being very labour-intensive but spend ages training-up the workforce before you actually start making cars and then have engineering flying-in from Blighty every time something screws-up (and this will happen). Both seem quite expensive to me.
I accept it may be more economical to start making some stuff overseas, but generally it is the stuff when the engineering is completely waterproof and they can't screw up. And it should be a long creeping process before adding more.
Cheers
Phil
I don't disagree that you use fag-packet calcs for getting a ballpark figure. (When designing I will sometimes do a few simple fluids or stress calcs just to know I'm roughly OK before sending it off to CAE for the full-blown analysis). However, my impression, of Barbra's posts have consistently been "MUST MOVE FACTORY ABROAD TO BE CHEAPER" & "MANUFACTURING IS DEAD IN THIS COUNTRY". I'm pretty damned certain it's more complicated than that.
But if it's OK I will indulge in a few fag-packet calcs to question some of the numbers above. Say the car sells for a mean price of £40000, take VAT off leaves ~£34000, take off dealer margin and costs (say £5000) leaves ~£29000. Thats ~£29000 per car for TVR to bring raw material in, do their stuff, and then deliver to the dealer.
Make 650 cars at ~£29000 thats a cashflow of ~£18.9M into the factory and therefore the break-even figure for costs, not £6.5M as was quoted above.
Whether they can build a car for £29000 and still make a profit I don't know. My own instincts say they can't with their own engines but could with one bought-in. In a earlier thread I suggested the soon to be released V6 Duratec 3.5litre could be used for an entry level vehicle.
Back on to the overseas thing. Noble makes it's rolling chassis's in South Africa, but contrary to popular belief it wasn't done there solely for cost reasons. That facility (Hi-Tech Automotive) had been making high quality Cobra and GT40 replicas for the US for years before Noble came along. The necessary production expertise and skills were there ready and waiting.
It is a completely different kettle of fish to build a new facility in eastern europe or wherever and just start making cars of acceptable quality. To do that you need to do one of 2 things. Either take all the skill out of making the cars, which means employing lots of designers & engineers and spending loads of capital on tooling (sounds familiar!) Or still have the car being very labour-intensive but spend ages training-up the workforce before you actually start making cars and then have engineering flying-in from Blighty every time something screws-up (and this will happen). Both seem quite expensive to me.
I accept it may be more economical to start making some stuff overseas, but generally it is the stuff when the engineering is completely waterproof and they can't screw up. And it should be a long creeping process before adding more.
Cheers
Phil
The car industry is going great guns in south africa i like telling merc owners that there super duper german cars are made there.I hope TVR survive and the workers either find new jobs or get taken back on if things get better.
The japs seem to be getting out of the sports car market so maybe it will create more room for a niche brand like TVR if they can raise quality and create lower cost models
The japs seem to be getting out of the sports car market so maybe it will create more room for a niche brand like TVR if they can raise quality and create lower cost models
Wheeljack
I appreciate your calculations but surely it doesn't matter what the turnover is if they are making cars at a loss.
For clarity Hitech were a much smaller manufacturer when Noble linked up with them, just producing Cobra cars, the GT40 replica has come in the last 6 months and they have grown with Noble as their production has grown. I also believe that the success is a joint effort as Noble have had an active role in training the Hitech staff.
However when Noble outsourced production to Hitech they were at the begining of thier produciton. For TVR to do it is another proposition all together.
The main advantage for Noble is that they do not have the problems associated with having your own factory if demand for the product slows, as it clearly has for TVR. If TVR did use a third party company then they could control the supply if the supplier has multiple products to rely on
I appreciate your calculations but surely it doesn't matter what the turnover is if they are making cars at a loss.
For clarity Hitech were a much smaller manufacturer when Noble linked up with them, just producing Cobra cars, the GT40 replica has come in the last 6 months and they have grown with Noble as their production has grown. I also believe that the success is a joint effort as Noble have had an active role in training the Hitech staff.
However when Noble outsourced production to Hitech they were at the begining of thier produciton. For TVR to do it is another proposition all together.
The main advantage for Noble is that they do not have the problems associated with having your own factory if demand for the product slows, as it clearly has for TVR. If TVR did use a third party company then they could control the supply if the supplier has multiple products to rely on
Barbra
Fair enough about my mistake on Hi-Tech's GT40 replica.
Despite my turnover estimate I wasn't claiming that TVR was making a profit on their cars. In fact I said above that my instincts tell me they cannot make a profit with their own engine when selling cars at the price they're at.
I've been in the engine R&D for a while now (Perkins Engines then Ford) and also have friends & contacts at Cosworth/Mahle/Prodrive/Ricardo/Jaguar/AVL et al. We have discussed this before and are all roughly aware of the costs involved (i.e. prototype engine parts, dyno-time, tooling, etc). And we are all genuinely stumped at how TVR can design, analyse, test, develop, tool-up, machine, and assemble bespoke hand-built engines put them in £40-50k cars at prototype volumes and make a profit. Even without all the bureaucratic overheads that big companies carry. Maybe I've been working in stuffy big companies too-long because I really need enlightening on this one.
The rest of the car though, for my reasons above, I remain very sceptical that outsourcing some or all of the manufacturing abroad will bring immediate cost benefits without a lot of engineering pre-production work. And although I would have more confidence with an experienced firm like Hi-Tech I would still like to see the numbers.
Phil
>> Edited by wheeljack888 on Wednesday 26th April 01:17
Fair enough about my mistake on Hi-Tech's GT40 replica.
Despite my turnover estimate I wasn't claiming that TVR was making a profit on their cars. In fact I said above that my instincts tell me they cannot make a profit with their own engine when selling cars at the price they're at.
I've been in the engine R&D for a while now (Perkins Engines then Ford) and also have friends & contacts at Cosworth/Mahle/Prodrive/Ricardo/Jaguar/AVL et al. We have discussed this before and are all roughly aware of the costs involved (i.e. prototype engine parts, dyno-time, tooling, etc). And we are all genuinely stumped at how TVR can design, analyse, test, develop, tool-up, machine, and assemble bespoke hand-built engines put them in £40-50k cars at prototype volumes and make a profit. Even without all the bureaucratic overheads that big companies carry. Maybe I've been working in stuffy big companies too-long because I really need enlightening on this one.
The rest of the car though, for my reasons above, I remain very sceptical that outsourcing some or all of the manufacturing abroad will bring immediate cost benefits without a lot of engineering pre-production work. And although I would have more confidence with an experienced firm like Hi-Tech I would still like to see the numbers.
Phil
>> Edited by wheeljack888 on Wednesday 26th April 01:17
Phil
In total agreement with you.
I have always wondered from an engineering point of view how the design of the current range impacts on the ease of production. Looking at the interior triming, it must be labour intensive. I would think that moving forwar TVR need to design cars that still maintain thier TVR'ness but are more cost effective to build.
Just a thought but I wonder if Mr Richards is having sleepness nights excited about the prospect of what he could do with TVR???
Now that would be a positive step forward for the company.
In total agreement with you.
I have always wondered from an engineering point of view how the design of the current range impacts on the ease of production. Looking at the interior triming, it must be labour intensive. I would think that moving forwar TVR need to design cars that still maintain thier TVR'ness but are more cost effective to build.
Just a thought but I wonder if Mr Richards is having sleepness nights excited about the prospect of what he could do with TVR???
Now that would be a positive step forward for the company.
wheeljack888 said:
some stuff
Phil
I don't disagree!
The fundamentals of the business don't seem to stack up, and you're completely right, doing their own engine always seemed completely mad to me (as an ex-engine designer).
You're also right - they don't need to necessarily move abroad to get the fundamentals right.
Incidentally, I worked at several of the companies your colleagues are at.
There's some more relevant stuff that I'd love to go into but I sadly can't due to client confidentiality....
Nick
wheeljack888 said:
I would welcome any involvement by Mr Richards concern. For one it would go a long way to countering the usual TVR engineering snobbery I get from my Lotus & Porsche driving friends.
I wouldn't!
while the quality of engineering in that firm is fantastic, ultimately it's a motorsport business that doesn't really understand the business of road cars.
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