What's my rights...?
Discussion
Ok, my Chimaera 4ltr is in at 
at the moment, needed a service and a few touch up points, one of which is the manifold gaskets replacing (blowing)
A hefty bill at the start as you'd imagine...
But it's just got much bigger as they've snapped the bolts off in the manifold, meaning that the head has to come off, and be sent off to be machined out... Now, I'm quite a passive guy but this has wound me up a bit, as they're billing me for all the labour and machining. If a plumber punctures a pipe in your house while he's there, you expect him to fix this at his cost - would I be right to ask them to do the same, or at least give me some kind of good will gesture? The car's going to be off the road for a week longer, and cost me the best part of £2k, for a job that was originally going to be less than half that...
Thoughts?
at the moment, needed a service and a few touch up points, one of which is the manifold gaskets replacing (blowing) A hefty bill at the start as you'd imagine...
But it's just got much bigger as they've snapped the bolts off in the manifold, meaning that the head has to come off, and be sent off to be machined out... Now, I'm quite a passive guy but this has wound me up a bit, as they're billing me for all the labour and machining. If a plumber punctures a pipe in your house while he's there, you expect him to fix this at his cost - would I be right to ask them to do the same, or at least give me some kind of good will gesture? The car's going to be off the road for a week longer, and cost me the best part of £2k, for a job that was originally going to be less than half that...
Thoughts?
Edited by Ted - please abide by our name and shame rules
Edited by PetrolTed on Tuesday 13th June 12:33
Tricky one and I appreciate it is probably a right pain in the arris - however I cannot see that the bolts sheering off is really the garages fault, all they have tried to do is undo the fixings and the bolt(s) decided to shear rather than unscrew, there's not really a negligent way to undo them them so it's just unlucky. One could argue that possibly the bolts were overtightened when last put in by another mechanic or that they have corroded and weakened over time, either way it is outwith the control of the current garage. If they drop a spanner and damage the bodywork then that is negligence, but cannot see that this is.
Good luck, these costs are sent to test us.
Good luck, these costs are sent to test us.
Too right - I'm just reeling from the forthcoming bill which I hadn't really budgeted for... Haven't told the missus yet or she'll make me sell the beast! We're in the middle of an extension as well - so it's nothing but joy at the moment...
Anyone got 6 lucky numbers between 1 and 49...?
Anyone got 6 lucky numbers between 1 and 49...?
I can understand the frustration. I'm sure i've read in the 'bible' about the risks involved with manifold bolts shearing, suggesting that if you have any doubts, you should take it to the 'experts' and transfer the risk to them. Which is exactly what you have done.
I would agree that this is unfair on the garage, but did they explain these risks to you before hand, or give you a call to let you know that one of the bolts is stuck and what the outcome would be if it snapped?
In such curcumstances i certainly wouldn't expect to have to cover the full costs at full dealer rates...
I would agree that this is unfair on the garage, but did they explain these risks to you before hand, or give you a call to let you know that one of the bolts is stuck and what the outcome would be if it snapped?
In such curcumstances i certainly wouldn't expect to have to cover the full costs at full dealer rates...
Edited by The Surveyor on Tuesday 13th June 13:07
It happened to me last year, so you have my sympathies.
As has been said, it's not the garage's fault. If the screws were cross-threaded (which AFAIK is the most commmon cause of shearing), then there's nothing that can be done other having the head off etc.
Just make sure that the garage use decent quality screws, greases them up (IIRC, the Bible mentions this) and bolts them in properly.
Are you having the pre-cats out while the manifolds are off?
As has been said, it's not the garage's fault. If the screws were cross-threaded (which AFAIK is the most commmon cause of shearing), then there's nothing that can be done other having the head off etc.
Just make sure that the garage use decent quality screws, greases them up (IIRC, the Bible mentions this) and bolts them in properly.
Are you having the pre-cats out while the manifolds are off?
Difficult one, I notice while sitting in the local tyre centre they other day that they had disclaimers everywhere regarding manifold studs, basically, if they break when removing the manifold, the customer has to pay to put the problem right. It does happen and I have done it myself on two occasions, with the sums of money involved I recon you should at least take a little legal advice. Best of luck.
Yep. Not sure you can do anything really. Sorry dude
I had mine done a few months ago and that was my big fear. Fortunately I was ok but I'd be interested to see how you get on..They did warn me it can happen..did they warn you?
Not helping you now but maybe others, I WD40'd mine every day for a week before because of this worry..
I had mine done a few months ago and that was my big fear. Fortunately I was ok but I'd be interested to see how you get on..They did warn me it can happen..did they warn you? Not helping you now but maybe others, I WD40'd mine every day for a week before because of this worry..
I can see this both ways... It's not really the garages fault - these are a known problem. However, if you're in for the same costs when it goes wrong as if you break the bolts yourself, why are you bothering with a garage in the 1st place? There appears to be no passing of the risk. I would hope for some form of good will gesture from the garage. (Have they done this?)
I'm looking forward even less to replacing my manifolds now.
On a related subject, it is a known but rare occurance for Impreza ECUs to die completely when being remapped. (Due to Subaru being lazy and not putting proper bootloader software on them
) I would not expect my tuner to send me a bill for a new ECU if this happened! In fact know he, and most other Subaru tuners I know, stand the cost of replacement this if this happens. The cost of replacement is less than the engineering work required in this case.
I'm looking forward even less to replacing my manifolds now.
On a related subject, it is a known but rare occurance for Impreza ECUs to die completely when being remapped. (Due to Subaru being lazy and not putting proper bootloader software on them
) I would not expect my tuner to send me a bill for a new ECU if this happened! In fact know he, and most other Subaru tuners I know, stand the cost of replacement this if this happens. The cost of replacement is less than the engineering work required in this case. dnb said:
There appears to be no passing of the risk.
That's because a cross-threaded screw is a latent defect within the manufacture of the car. The reason why one would take a car to the garage to have the manifolds off, is not to pass the risk for something already faulty with the car manifesting itself physically but because it's a complete arse of a job.
General consensus is that it's not the garages fault, I'd have done the same I think. Still, it's a bit of a kick in the balls, and I'd imagine I'll be applying the WD the same afterwards!? You live and learn I suppose.
Good job I cleared that credit card eh...? No other mods while it's in though, perhaps a new stereo/speakers but we'll have to see about that - I just want her back on the road again!!!
Good job I cleared that credit card eh...? No other mods while it's in though, perhaps a new stereo/speakers but we'll have to see about that - I just want her back on the road again!!!
I consider the lack of bootloader software on my ECU a latent deficiency... (at best a design oversight - the newer cars have this problem fixed...)
And nowhere in the thread has it been stated that the bolt actually was cross threaded, (however I concede that it is likely).
It's funny - maybe I work in the wrong industry - but we agree a specification for the job, a price and when it will be done. We then set aside some money for contingency and don't ask the customer for more money unless they change the scope of the work.
("Customer" is usually the MOD, so they don't part with money easily!!) If things go wrong, then we fix them with the contingency. If they don't go wrong we make more profit.
Would the contingeny required in this case make the business of manifold replacement generally too expensive?
And nowhere in the thread has it been stated that the bolt actually was cross threaded, (however I concede that it is likely).
It's funny - maybe I work in the wrong industry - but we agree a specification for the job, a price and when it will be done. We then set aside some money for contingency and don't ask the customer for more money unless they change the scope of the work.
("Customer" is usually the MOD, so they don't part with money easily!!) If things go wrong, then we fix them with the contingency. If they don't go wrong we make more profit.
Would the contingeny required in this case make the business of manifold replacement generally too expensive?
I think you'll find that the bolts won't be cross threaded it's more a case of corrosion. There is a reaction between dissimilar metals, in this case alluminium heads and zinc plated steel bolts. I believe over a period of time the reaction causes the bolt to bind in the thread and shears rather than turn when the bolt is undone. There is also general corrosion of the head of the bolt thats in contact with the hot manifold flange to consider as well, this may well weaken the bolt still further.
If you want to be absolutely sure ask to see the broken bolt head and the remains of the bolt in the cylinder head before its taken away. If its rusty and old looking and it looks as though the bolt was screwed all the way in when it sheared then its probably down to old age. wheras a crossthreaded bolt will only be part way in and will look crooked.
Andy
If you want to be absolutely sure ask to see the broken bolt head and the remains of the bolt in the cylinder head before its taken away. If its rusty and old looking and it looks as though the bolt was screwed all the way in when it sheared then its probably down to old age. wheras a crossthreaded bolt will only be part way in and will look crooked.
Andy
optimal noise said:
Im not a machanic but every time i've taken my car in for work an there's been a tricky bolt that won't budge they have heated it with a blow torch and its always undone.
You have restricted access to the exhaust bolts in a tiff and at best it's a real pain of a job to get to them let alone get them undone. Using a blow torch wouldn't look to good when putting in a fire claim to your insurers.
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