Heel and toe in a Tiv
Discussion
Ok...anyone else struggle to get nice crisp down changes in their Trevor? I find the long throttle throw means exaggerated 'blips' are needed (compared to other cars I've had), with the result I often end up stamping the brake too. C'mon it must be possible...or have you all got double jointed ankles?
Ok...anyone else struggle to get nice crisp down changes in their Trevor? I find the long throttle throw means exaggerated 'blips' are needed (compared to other cars I've had), with the result I often end up stamping the brake too. C'mon it must be possible...or have you all got double jointed ankles?
You need to get the pedal height right, and it's worth trying different foot positions too. What works best for me is with the ball of my foot on the right side of the brake pedal, and the outside of my shoe pressing on the left side of the throttle pedal. I've never measured how far I have to push the throttle, but I'd guess it's around an inch to get a good 'blip'. If you have to move yours a lot more than that, perhaps the linkage needs looking at?
Cheers,
Peter Humphries (and a green V8S)
macca said: OK, I'll ask the dumb ass question... What is heel and toe (please describe the procedure) and what does it enable you to do?
In present company I don't feel qualified to answer but here goes... Basically the name given to blipping the throttle in order to match the revs on a down change i.e. 5th to 4th, 4th to 3rd etc. whilst braking at the same time. Braking with your "toe" and blipping the throttle with your "heel". There are other ways of doing it though as described by the experts.
Macca, heel and toe technique allows you to smoothly slow the car down while going down through the gearbox without locking the rear wheels up. It is only really useful on the road when you are giving it some or a car with a big power. It is especially useful in the wet where there is more chance of locking the rear wheels whilst releasing the clutch too fast when downshifting. So to do heel and toe you:-
1. Are hard on the brakes with your right foot
2. Depress clutch
3. Change down a gear or two
4. Either by rolling foot right (whilst still applying pressure to brake pedal) to depress accelerator pedal using lace area of shoe or using heel of right foot to achieve same you quickly 'blip' throttle to give 1000-2000 rpm increase.
5. Let the clutch out.
2,3,4 and 5 all happen together in a split second. When the clutch is let out you have already matched the revs to what the gear will be and so you don't get the sudden 'jerk' from the engine that can unsettle the car.
As has been said you need to set the pedal heights to be able to do this properly. Accelerator wants to be level or just slightly higher than the brake.
1. Are hard on the brakes with your right foot
2. Depress clutch
3. Change down a gear or two
4. Either by rolling foot right (whilst still applying pressure to brake pedal) to depress accelerator pedal using lace area of shoe or using heel of right foot to achieve same you quickly 'blip' throttle to give 1000-2000 rpm increase.
5. Let the clutch out.
2,3,4 and 5 all happen together in a split second. When the clutch is let out you have already matched the revs to what the gear will be and so you don't get the sudden 'jerk' from the engine that can unsettle the car.
As has been said you need to set the pedal heights to be able to do this properly. Accelerator wants to be level or just slightly higher than the brake.
http://carfreaks.b0nk.net/bestmotoring/
Download them and on their track tests, they got lots of shootings of heel&toe
ByronTVR
>> Edited by ByronTVR on Tuesday 25th February 01:34
Download them and on their track tests, they got lots of shootings of heel&toe
ByronTVR
>> Edited by ByronTVR on Tuesday 25th February 01:34
macca said: OK, I'll ask the dumb ass question... What is heel and toe (please describe the procedure) and what does it enable you to do?
Its a racing technique to save time on braking for bends. It is quite useless for use in road driving unless you happen to be on a stage of the RAC through Wales
'Heel and Toe in a Tiv' ?
No it's none of those things!!!
It's a dance routine, it's an album from that band...er..the...you know the one i mean!
It's ryhming slang, or it's when you fall the last five steps on the escalator running for that train...
It's got nothing to do with driving, that's for shure!!
No it's none of those things!!!
It's a dance routine, it's an album from that band...er..the...you know the one i mean!
It's ryhming slang, or it's when you fall the last five steps on the escalator running for that train...
It's got nothing to do with driving, that's for shure!!
In the days when I learnt to drive it was essential! Try going down the box in a 3 speed Ford E93A "Pop" without heel and toe! Oh and it came in handy on my MGA because I've never driven one yet where the syncro' second isn't knackered.
madcop said: It is quite useless for use in road driving
Rich... Pupp, your profile doesn't say which Tiv you have.
My SEAC has nice evenly spaced pedals which mean it's great for driving with walking boots but not brilliant for spreading your right foot accross two pedals.
I got a chance to drive a Griff recently and discovered the pedals are way different and make H&T much easier.
Agree with RichB on this one - It's hard to change down quickly on my gearbox when it is hot without a getting a lack of synchmesh crunch. What I do is to go off the brakes, blip the throttle while I double declutch, then back on the brakes. If I could work out how to H&T then I would!
My SEAC has nice evenly spaced pedals which mean it's great for driving with walking boots but not brilliant for spreading your right foot accross two pedals.
I got a chance to drive a Griff recently and discovered the pedals are way different and make H&T much easier.
Agree with RichB on this one - It's hard to change down quickly on my gearbox when it is hot without a getting a lack of synchmesh crunch. What I do is to go off the brakes, blip the throttle while I double declutch, then back on the brakes. If I could work out how to H&T then I would!
Oops, yes I am confusing double-declutching with heel & toeing, well it was 30 years ago! Anyway comment still stands except that no I didn't H&T the old Pop, it was never going that fast, but I did in the MGA and I reckon that understanding the technique of DDC'ing helped me to learn the technique of H&T.
Nacnud said:...double declutch...
Rich...
madcop said:
macca said: OK, I'll ask the dumb ass question... What is heel and toe (please describe the procedure) and what does it enable you to do?
Its a racing technique to save time on braking for bends. It is quite useless for use in road driving unless you happen to be on a stage of the RAC through Wales
Sorry but it is an essential technique so that you don't lock up the rear wheels and cause the car to spin and become the latest accident statistic. Probably the most common reason why new TVR drivers crash their cars. If the revs are not matched the engine torque acts on the rear wheels and can lock them up and the car will spin very very quickly. Same problem can ocur when engine braking which is another no no.
What you do is use the right foot to brake and control the accelerator so that the revs can be blipped when the clutch is engaged so that there is not a rev mismatch. Also allows you to apply throttle as you come off the brakes to get a smooth and fast exit.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
Pupp, had the same type of problem in my Chim, seemed I had to push the throttle a long way before it increased the engine speed which meant I needed a double joint on my ankle to toe and heel! Got my dealer to adjust the throttle cable at the engine end to take up all of the slack in the cable and bingo it worked just fine, toe and heel with no problem.
Mick
Mick
shpub said:
madcop said:
Its a racing technique to save time on braking for bends. It is quite useless for use in road driving unless you happen to be on a stage of the RAC through Wales
Sorry but it is an essential technique so that you don't lock up the rear wheels and cause the car to spin and become the latest accident statistic. Probably the most common reason why new TVR drivers crash their cars. If the revs are not matched the engine torque acts on the rear wheels and can lock them up and the car will spin very very quickly. Same problem can ocur when engine braking which is another no no.
What you do is use the right foot to brake and control the accelerator so that the revs can be blipped when the clutch is engaged so that there is not a rev mismatch. Also allows you to apply throttle as you come off the brakes to get a smooth and fast exit.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
Eminently sensible point about newbies, Steve, but I really don't think it is of much help to someone new to the power and handling of a TVR.
For driving on our roads I agree wholeheartedly with Madcop. There's enough things to worry about out there without trying to develop a new, albeit valuable, technique.
It may be an old fashioned view, but if you want to slow down take your foot off the thottle. If you still want to slow down, apply the brake. Either way when you want to GO, place car in the most appropriate gear for the conditions and go. Use the brake to slow down, when you have finished use the throttle to match the revs and go.
RichB said: In the days when I learnt to drive it was essential! Try going down the box in a 3 speed Ford E93A "Pop" without heel and toe! Oh and it came in handy on my MGA because I've never driven one yet where the syncro' second isn't knackered.
If you are referring to double de clutching then I would wholeheartedly agree with you.
Need to heel and toe in a 'Ford Pop'?
unless it was a getaway vehicle in your sequence of bank raids
shpub said:
Sorry but it is an essential technique so that you don't lock up the rear wheels and cause the car to spin and become the latest accident statistic. Probably the most common reason why new TVR drivers crash their cars. If the revs are not matched the engine torque acts on the rear wheels and can lock them up and the car will spin very very quickly. Same problem can ocur when engine braking which is another no no.
Have to disagree Steve. Double de clutch of course, that will match the engine revs to gearbox to road wheel speeds, but why do you need to be on the brake and the power at the same time unless you are in a race?
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