Check out what autocar has to say
Discussion
www.autocar.co.uk Check out what they say. apparently all moving to italy. Personally i still want to change my Tuscan 2 s up to a nice new Saggy. so there
I read this story just by chance and I have mized feeling about it. Most of them good though.
Its such a shame for TVR's hard working and talented workforce to be made redundant. But on the plus side, at least the company isnt bust again (touch wood!). Having a Turin-based factory is better than no TVR factory at all!!
Lets all pray 2 things:
- That TVR can open again in future in the UK, giving back more jobs to Blackpool
- That the cars build quality improves in Italy, if thats where they will be assembled
Its such a shame for TVR's hard working and talented workforce to be made redundant. But on the plus side, at least the company isnt bust again (touch wood!). Having a Turin-based factory is better than no TVR factory at all!!
Lets all pray 2 things:
- That TVR can open again in future in the UK, giving back more jobs to Blackpool
- That the cars build quality improves in Italy, if thats where they will be assembled
heebeegeetee said:
FWIW, having the cars built in Italy is a million times better than the eastern bloc, I would say.
Why? The Italian's have probably the worst reputation for some of Worlds most shoddy cars - a title they probably join hold with the UK, and possibly USA
Would we prefer that Italian build stamp to cars that are built to an equal or better quality but for lower prices?
Styling and personality, oh
the Italians are good at that, but everything else? But again, people buy Alfa's still despite the dire warnings...
avantone said:
If it's Bertone, could you see them producing a "plastic" (no offence) body, or would we seen something possibly more exotic material wise i.e. Aluminium?
Its like a "Plan b" - fibreglass Ferraris, as with these high profile links, the price will continue to go up and up!
This is clearly all bad news for the workers, unless of course some are offered jobs in sunny Italy!
Thing is, although quality has clearly improved in the last few years, the public's perception of it hasn't.
So this is probably good news in terms of TVR being able to reposition the brand slightly by dissociating from historical [bold]perceptions[/bold] of build quality issues.
And they're getting the engines to meet Euro IV emissions, which opens up Europe and the US as markets and should more than compensate for the likely reduction in Brits buying on pure patriotism.
[optimistic hat] Sounds good to me. And now I've got a classic, British built TVR! [/optimistic hat]
One thing's for sure: I'll be buying the 25th October Autocar for "news on TVR's future, including new model and motorsport plans".
Thing is, although quality has clearly improved in the last few years, the public's perception of it hasn't.
So this is probably good news in terms of TVR being able to reposition the brand slightly by dissociating from historical [bold]perceptions[/bold] of build quality issues.
And they're getting the engines to meet Euro IV emissions, which opens up Europe and the US as markets and should more than compensate for the likely reduction in Brits buying on pure patriotism.
[optimistic hat] Sounds good to me. And now I've got a classic, British built TVR! [/optimistic hat]
One thing's for sure: I'll be buying the 25th October Autocar for "news on TVR's future, including new model and motorsport plans".
Los Angeles said:
Tripps said:
The Italian's have probably the worst reputation for some of Worlds most shoddy cars - a title they probably join hold with the UK, and possibly USA
Very true, Tripps. Americans who drive Italian exotica are often philisophical about their car's peculiarities, "It's Italian," they say, with a half-smile and a shrug of the shoulders. Mind you, bit of a culture class, a car named Trevor made in Italy. It will have to be renamed: TREVORINNI
"What do you drive?"
"A Trevorinni."
"Ah, bella. Fantastico supercar. Reliability?"
"Crappo. But whata car!"
Incidentally, Tripps, the worst car for unreliability stateside last year and the year before was ... Ford Focus. The one I had stopped in the middle lane of a seven lane freeway in the rush hour!
LA
Edited by Los Angeles on Friday 20th October 09:05
Imagine the next re-make of The Italian Job escape scene in Turin.
1 Trevorinni got caught by the caribs because he wouldn't be deterred from his engine warm up regime.
Another rolled off the roof of the Fiat factory because his handbrake was toss
The rest got nailed because, instead of making a getaway, they drove around Turin looking for tunnels to drive through!!!
Do you think Bertone produced TVRs using Italian labour will be at the same price levels as Blackpool produced ones?
I have no experience whatsoever of manufacturing cars but I did run the UK end of a major Italian sportswear business for many years and I know that we went from producing all of our clothing in Italy to producing none of it there because of labour costs. (WE were producing (as well as in the far east) in Portugal, Spain and the UK though). I cannot believe that cost savings are possible by shifting production to Italy, particularly Northern Italy.
I have no experience whatsoever of manufacturing cars but I did run the UK end of a major Italian sportswear business for many years and I know that we went from producing all of our clothing in Italy to producing none of it there because of labour costs. (WE were producing (as well as in the far east) in Portugal, Spain and the UK though). I cannot believe that cost savings are possible by shifting production to Italy, particularly Northern Italy.
The Ricardo-engined Bertone-built models (Bertados?) are apparently going to be available for 2007 - that's about 10 weeks away.
Ricardo's appointment was announced 3 months ago. So: in 5 months the drivetrains will be Euro V and sufficiently proved for the mighty Ricardo to endorse/warrant the Speed Six?
Bertone to build them? Are they going to build them the same labour-intensive way with all its opportunities for human error? The Blackpool gang has a lot of skill and had a lot of practice doing this. To make the cars better needs them to be re-engineered to be easier to make CONSISTENTLY. All in 10 weeks?
Porcine air traffic control at the ready...
Ricardo's appointment was announced 3 months ago. So: in 5 months the drivetrains will be Euro V and sufficiently proved for the mighty Ricardo to endorse/warrant the Speed Six?
Bertone to build them? Are they going to build them the same labour-intensive way with all its opportunities for human error? The Blackpool gang has a lot of skill and had a lot of practice doing this. To make the cars better needs them to be re-engineered to be easier to make CONSISTENTLY. All in 10 weeks?
Porcine air traffic control at the ready...
BossCerbera said:
The Ricardo-engined Bertone-built models (Bertados?) are apparently going to be available for 2007 - that's about 10 weeks away.
Ricardo's appointment was announced 3 months ago. So: in 5 months the drivetrains will be Euro V and sufficiently proved for the mighty Ricardo to endorse/warrant the Speed Six?
Bertone to build them? Are they going to build them the same labour-intensive way with all its opportunities for human error? The Blackpool gang has a lot of skill and had a lot of practice doing this. To make the cars better needs them to be re-engineered to be easier to make CONSISTENTLY. All in 10 weeks?
Porcine air traffic control at the ready...
Ricardo's appointment was announced 3 months ago. So: in 5 months the drivetrains will be Euro V and sufficiently proved for the mighty Ricardo to endorse/warrant the Speed Six?
Bertone to build them? Are they going to build them the same labour-intensive way with all its opportunities for human error? The Blackpool gang has a lot of skill and had a lot of practice doing this. To make the cars better needs them to be re-engineered to be easier to make CONSISTENTLY. All in 10 weeks?
Porcine air traffic control at the ready...
So what is your opinion Phil on what will happen?
BossCerbera said:
Ricardo's appointment was announced 3 months ago. So: in 5 months the drivetrains will be Euro V and sufficiently proved for the mighty Ricardo to endorse/warrant the Speed Six?
I've worked closely on engine projects with Ricardo in the past, albeit military diesel projects, but they a chuffing good at what they do, a little expensive, but good. 5months is a resonable timescale given the right resources.
Regards
Iain
soapbox said:
Imagine the next re-make of The Italian Job escape scene in Turin.
1 Trevorinni got caught by the caribs because he wouldn't be deterred from his engine warm up regime.
Another rolled off the roof of the Fiat factory because his handbrake was toss
The rest got nailed because, instead of making a getaway, they drove around Turin looking for tunnels to drive through!!!
Irrespective of where they are built, by whom, with this or that engine, is there a demand for new cars / models in light of all the warranty / uncertainty issues ? I've seen no convincing evidence that UK or overseas buyers have been queuing up outside the factory to place an order... No order book ..................... Marque over. Period.
10 weeks until the New Year but I don't see any new cars rolling off production line to meet that timeframe. March / April maybe ! But can the costs be covered until then with no income ? It's been coming, the clues were there but GAME OVER - I reckon.
10 weeks until the New Year but I don't see any new cars rolling off production line to meet that timeframe. March / April maybe ! But can the costs be covered until then with no income ? It's been coming, the clues were there but GAME OVER - I reckon.
I must admit there are certain things that, shall we say, dont add up.
1. Production costs too high for the current business model, market and economic climate. Blackpool production not feasible because costs are simply too high. If we build abroad we can slash those costs.
OK, a decent argument could be made on that line. Only selling low volume of cars, larger workforce than required on higher wages than could be had for elsewhere. Upsticks to cheaper labour force. Fair enough. That would dictate Eastern Europe or Far East.
Italy? In this same "expensive to manufacture Western Europe" right? Italy, the (rather) legendary home of uneconomic production and inefficiency. Italy, rather militant workers. Italy a hugely repressive tax regime for "interesting" motors.
2. Bertone classic designs.
Are we still talking cheaper here? Bertone???? Hello...anybody home? The words Bertone, bespoke, classic, design and cheap just DO NOT come in the same sentence.
Sorry but the economic angle does not stack up one iota for any conventional sense. So, outside the box thinking? St. Nic is getting a large wodge of cash to relocate. That has to be a wodge of cash big enough to stomach the relocation costs and paying Bertone. Hmmm. From who? The EU? Turin regional development authority? Italian authorities are going to *import* a rival, equally long standing sports car producer that will sell products that compete *against* their home grown boys?
The more I think about this, the more I cant see anything that works in this Italian Job idea. If it was Far East, Eastern Europe, Russia, yes I could see some angles of advantage. Italy? Nope. Oh and not to mention Im sure the local boys just *love* the idea of the Russians moving in! Nothing about this stacks up.
There is a lot more to run on this story yet.
1. Production costs too high for the current business model, market and economic climate. Blackpool production not feasible because costs are simply too high. If we build abroad we can slash those costs.
OK, a decent argument could be made on that line. Only selling low volume of cars, larger workforce than required on higher wages than could be had for elsewhere. Upsticks to cheaper labour force. Fair enough. That would dictate Eastern Europe or Far East.
Italy? In this same "expensive to manufacture Western Europe" right? Italy, the (rather) legendary home of uneconomic production and inefficiency. Italy, rather militant workers. Italy a hugely repressive tax regime for "interesting" motors.
2. Bertone classic designs.
Are we still talking cheaper here? Bertone???? Hello...anybody home? The words Bertone, bespoke, classic, design and cheap just DO NOT come in the same sentence.
Sorry but the economic angle does not stack up one iota for any conventional sense. So, outside the box thinking? St. Nic is getting a large wodge of cash to relocate. That has to be a wodge of cash big enough to stomach the relocation costs and paying Bertone. Hmmm. From who? The EU? Turin regional development authority? Italian authorities are going to *import* a rival, equally long standing sports car producer that will sell products that compete *against* their home grown boys?
The more I think about this, the more I cant see anything that works in this Italian Job idea. If it was Far East, Eastern Europe, Russia, yes I could see some angles of advantage. Italy? Nope. Oh and not to mention Im sure the local boys just *love* the idea of the Russians moving in! Nothing about this stacks up.
There is a lot more to run on this story yet.
BossCerbera said:
Porcine air traffic control at the ready...
Ricardo are very, very good at what they do and I would think that they could sort things out in a pretty short timescale - but, as has been said, it would be at considerable cost.
As you say, Phil, my doubts are with the manufacturing and the timescales involved. Unless this has been in the pipeline for some considerable time and Bertone have been gearing up for production for many months - perhaps as long as Ricardo has been working? Production stopped at TVR quite a long time ago and no company would let their employees sit on their hands for that long unless they had another plan in motion, surely?
Purely conjecture on my part, clearly, but even I can't believe that things have been that rudderless for that long. Oh hang on...
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