The death of the factory & the way I see it.
Discussion
This may not be a popular post or opinion, so sorry in advance to all those who will inevitably become emotional and personal as sad as it is, it's the way of the world.
Do we really have any rights to be so vocal and tell the russian schoolboy and his puppet MD the way they should be running their business? Should we really get all hot under the collar about the failure of a company? Can we really get so passionate about the loss of jobs at what is on a national scale a small regional employer?
I believe that as owners of a car, any car from any marque, once it's out of its original warranty, if you bought it privately second hand, and you have no direct servicing contact with a main dealer then really you have no rights to get on a hobby horse and dictate how a business should be run. If you own a 10 year old Griffith, Chimaera an S or certainly a Wedge are you really the kind of person whos opinion actually matters one jot to the manufacturer? I don't think so bar lottery wins or sudden good fourtune are you really likely to walk in and slap £60K on the counter of your main dealers? Probably not and even if a few of you do, percentage wise you are so insignificant that actually you become irrelevant, so why should they listen to any of you?
People will always harp back to the "glory days" when TVR were on a roll and selling plenty of cars but very often again this is done through rose tinted spectacles, Peter Wheeler was not a folk hero he was most certainly not "the saviour of british automotive" he was a business man who'd made a lot of money else where and in his later years was able to endulge his passion for speed while funding this through making and selling the product. But first and formost he was a BUSINESS MAN he was in it for himself, and really so what? What is wrong with the desire to make money, and if you can do it doing something you like then bloody good luck, but ultimately when the time comes to hang up your overalls you want to get out with a maximum return for your efforts, and the harsh reality means you cannot be steered by emotion, if you are then you are unlikely to have got to that position in the first place! So he sold to a millionare school boy, good luck there's one born every minute and when it's daddys money then so much the better, he probably looked and thought the kids got passion and he enjoyed watching The Fast & The Furious well good luck, if jnr has deep enough pockets then he might do something good but ho hum money talks I'm off into retirement see ya. Good luck Peter you worked hard to get what you got, enjoy the pheasant shooting.
So it's hard on the workers? Yep that's a fact and very sad but could they have helped themselves ? Probably, The folk hero that painted the Gary Newmans on the fibreglass, yes sure it added to the "soul" that was TVR but that took time away from what he should have been doing, his work, and what about the spiteful tosser who didn't just add a little soul but actually wrote in spray paint "Hope you die rich cvnt" on the fibreglass of the £60K sportscar? yes sure it got covered by carpet but the new owner would have been well chuffed by the cheeky northern working class chappies sense of humour had he seen that !(that is an actual incident and the dealer that found the comments on a brand new car while re sticking some carpets prior to delivery had to paint over to help preserve the reputation) Well maybe chaps and by no means do I mean every single sole at the factory if you'd all pulled in the same direction and shared a little more vision you might have made it. The same mentality that effected the miners in the 70/80's, the mantality that said it was ok to sleep on shift, the mentality that said time for tea, the mentality that believed in jobs for life and a wage was a meal ticket didn't help your cause. This mentality would never all the time my arse has a hole in it allow you to compete in a global market, sorry you were doomed to fail. So who do we blame? The workers? The Management? The Owner? The British Culture? well again sorry you've all got to share it you can have the best of any one of those but without the others you'll just be swimming against the tide.
It's sad it's happened and I'm sure TVR will now join the hundreds of other Great British automotive names that we can look back to with dewey eyes and get romantic about, MG, Triumph, Healey, Rover, mini to name a few, they all still enjoy enthusiastic owners clubs and followings, they all still enjoy a good supply chain of spares and once a month a lot of owners still get togeather to dip their beards in fermented yeast and talk about the good old days, but they realise it's a fact, what they have a passion for, in the guise they remember it is well and truely dead, the names may reappear from time to time when they fall out the draws of marketing agencies good ideas cupboards, but they're not what they were, all that's left is a name, the rest of the dreams are casualties of evolution, of commercialisation and development.
The future I'm sure will bring forward replacements, companies like Noble, Radical, Ascari, Farbold (sp?) even Morgan may have futures encompassing modern methods, with passion, good business practise, and the best bits of british culture, but they to will die unless the are ruthless with there drive and keep there factories free from passengers along for the ride, frankly good luck to them as someone who works in real industry and not in a virtual money worlds, I truely hope they make it and keep the future alive.
As for TVR well who knows, I'm sure as owners of older cars you'll all be ok, spares will still be there (probably better than they ever were) independants will still have the experience to maintain and service your toys and in a few years time you'll be able to join the MG owners, grow your beards and talk about the good old days, but please realise it and move on. I would never knock any individuals desire to help, I'm sure the people who have organised things like "London Thunder" and "Thunder Ball" had true and pure desires to help and that is honourable, but there comes a time when you have to face the music and realise you are a tiny number of probably less than 1000 individuals and your voice counts for nothing in the big scheme, be brave behind your keyboards, wave your flags with pride, rev your engines till your ears hurt but it ain't going to make jot difference to the future just make the farewell more tolerable, and that ain't always a bad thing so good luck and thanks for all the fish.
Do we really have any rights to be so vocal and tell the russian schoolboy and his puppet MD the way they should be running their business? Should we really get all hot under the collar about the failure of a company? Can we really get so passionate about the loss of jobs at what is on a national scale a small regional employer?
I believe that as owners of a car, any car from any marque, once it's out of its original warranty, if you bought it privately second hand, and you have no direct servicing contact with a main dealer then really you have no rights to get on a hobby horse and dictate how a business should be run. If you own a 10 year old Griffith, Chimaera an S or certainly a Wedge are you really the kind of person whos opinion actually matters one jot to the manufacturer? I don't think so bar lottery wins or sudden good fourtune are you really likely to walk in and slap £60K on the counter of your main dealers? Probably not and even if a few of you do, percentage wise you are so insignificant that actually you become irrelevant, so why should they listen to any of you?
People will always harp back to the "glory days" when TVR were on a roll and selling plenty of cars but very often again this is done through rose tinted spectacles, Peter Wheeler was not a folk hero he was most certainly not "the saviour of british automotive" he was a business man who'd made a lot of money else where and in his later years was able to endulge his passion for speed while funding this through making and selling the product. But first and formost he was a BUSINESS MAN he was in it for himself, and really so what? What is wrong with the desire to make money, and if you can do it doing something you like then bloody good luck, but ultimately when the time comes to hang up your overalls you want to get out with a maximum return for your efforts, and the harsh reality means you cannot be steered by emotion, if you are then you are unlikely to have got to that position in the first place! So he sold to a millionare school boy, good luck there's one born every minute and when it's daddys money then so much the better, he probably looked and thought the kids got passion and he enjoyed watching The Fast & The Furious well good luck, if jnr has deep enough pockets then he might do something good but ho hum money talks I'm off into retirement see ya. Good luck Peter you worked hard to get what you got, enjoy the pheasant shooting.
So it's hard on the workers? Yep that's a fact and very sad but could they have helped themselves ? Probably, The folk hero that painted the Gary Newmans on the fibreglass, yes sure it added to the "soul" that was TVR but that took time away from what he should have been doing, his work, and what about the spiteful tosser who didn't just add a little soul but actually wrote in spray paint "Hope you die rich cvnt" on the fibreglass of the £60K sportscar? yes sure it got covered by carpet but the new owner would have been well chuffed by the cheeky northern working class chappies sense of humour had he seen that !(that is an actual incident and the dealer that found the comments on a brand new car while re sticking some carpets prior to delivery had to paint over to help preserve the reputation) Well maybe chaps and by no means do I mean every single sole at the factory if you'd all pulled in the same direction and shared a little more vision you might have made it. The same mentality that effected the miners in the 70/80's, the mantality that said it was ok to sleep on shift, the mentality that said time for tea, the mentality that believed in jobs for life and a wage was a meal ticket didn't help your cause. This mentality would never all the time my arse has a hole in it allow you to compete in a global market, sorry you were doomed to fail. So who do we blame? The workers? The Management? The Owner? The British Culture? well again sorry you've all got to share it you can have the best of any one of those but without the others you'll just be swimming against the tide.
It's sad it's happened and I'm sure TVR will now join the hundreds of other Great British automotive names that we can look back to with dewey eyes and get romantic about, MG, Triumph, Healey, Rover, mini to name a few, they all still enjoy enthusiastic owners clubs and followings, they all still enjoy a good supply chain of spares and once a month a lot of owners still get togeather to dip their beards in fermented yeast and talk about the good old days, but they realise it's a fact, what they have a passion for, in the guise they remember it is well and truely dead, the names may reappear from time to time when they fall out the draws of marketing agencies good ideas cupboards, but they're not what they were, all that's left is a name, the rest of the dreams are casualties of evolution, of commercialisation and development.
The future I'm sure will bring forward replacements, companies like Noble, Radical, Ascari, Farbold (sp?) even Morgan may have futures encompassing modern methods, with passion, good business practise, and the best bits of british culture, but they to will die unless the are ruthless with there drive and keep there factories free from passengers along for the ride, frankly good luck to them as someone who works in real industry and not in a virtual money worlds, I truely hope they make it and keep the future alive.
As for TVR well who knows, I'm sure as owners of older cars you'll all be ok, spares will still be there (probably better than they ever were) independants will still have the experience to maintain and service your toys and in a few years time you'll be able to join the MG owners, grow your beards and talk about the good old days, but please realise it and move on. I would never knock any individuals desire to help, I'm sure the people who have organised things like "London Thunder" and "Thunder Ball" had true and pure desires to help and that is honourable, but there comes a time when you have to face the music and realise you are a tiny number of probably less than 1000 individuals and your voice counts for nothing in the big scheme, be brave behind your keyboards, wave your flags with pride, rev your engines till your ears hurt but it ain't going to make jot difference to the future just make the farewell more tolerable, and that ain't always a bad thing so good luck and thanks for all the fish.
One door closes, another door opens. It's up to us to make it or break it.
As has been said elsewhere, TVR succeeded cos the rest of the industry had abandoned THAT market!
That is NOT the case in recent years, hence the demise.
But it is important to learn the lessons of the past, and this is a good place to share that information!
As has been said elsewhere, TVR succeeded cos the rest of the industry had abandoned THAT market!
That is NOT the case in recent years, hence the demise.
But it is important to learn the lessons of the past, and this is a good place to share that information!
mel said:
If you own a 10 year old Griffith, Chimaera an S or certainly a Wedge are you really the kind of person whos opinion actually matters one jot to the manufacturer? I don't think so bar lottery wins or sudden good fourtune are you really likely to walk in and slap £60K on the counter of your main dealers? Probably not...
I would suggest you are wrong. On the basis I was able to walk in and pay £40k for a Griffith 8 years ago I am equally able to, as you put it, slap £60k down on a new car now. Am I the sort of buyer that matters to TVR? I would assume so... Congratulations Rich and well done but if we ignore the selective quoting of my comments, I suggest you are "one of the few" and the few is so small "you're frankly irrelevant" no mate your opinion doesn't count to the manufacturer any more than mine does, and there's no good reason why it should.
mel said:
..."one of the few" and the few is so small "you're frankly irrelevant" no mate your opinion doesn't count to the manufacturer any more than mine does, and there's no good reason why it should.
But if cars were more desirable / durable, then wouldn't more people take the plunge since they wouldn't be as scared to do so ? What other company than TVR has gone off in as much as a different direction? If there has been a sensible progression by the company then the posts that get posted probably wouldn't have been !
I have to agree with most of what you say Mel, much as it hurts; at this point in the story it is difficult to argue. It wasn't always so, but that time has passed.
I am the owner of a 10 year old car - coming up for eleven in April - but the key factor is the number of previous owners on the V5. None. I bought from new, I slapped the wedge on the counter and was happy to do so, all those years ago. TVR failed to produce anything that would induce me to do it again subsequently, but that doesn't mean I couldn't have if they had. I don't think they could ever recapture the price/performance sweet spot they nailed in the mid nineties, so in that respect you are absolutely right - those days are gone and won't be back.
Do I really have to grow a beard though?
I am the owner of a 10 year old car - coming up for eleven in April - but the key factor is the number of previous owners on the V5. None. I bought from new, I slapped the wedge on the counter and was happy to do so, all those years ago. TVR failed to produce anything that would induce me to do it again subsequently, but that doesn't mean I couldn't have if they had. I don't think they could ever recapture the price/performance sweet spot they nailed in the mid nineties, so in that respect you are absolutely right - those days are gone and won't be back.
Do I really have to grow a beard though?
RichardD said:
mel said:
..."one of the few" and the few is so small "you're frankly irrelevant" no mate your opinion doesn't count to the manufacturer any more than mine does, and there's no good reason why it should.
But if cars were more desirable / durable, then wouldn't more people take the plunge since they wouldn't be as scared to do so ? What other company than TVR has gone off in as much as a different direction? If there has been a sensible progression by the company then the posts that get posted probably wouldn't have been !
I suspect that even if the cars were more durable, the market for them has naturally shrunk. In the mid 90s you could pass a aweeping statement that most new Tivs were being bought by cash rich youngsters in the booming IT business or middle aged men with little to no mortgage and a desire to hark back to the days of the MG/AC/Healy etc.
Competition then appeared, IT incomes fell hugely for most sectors and the old farts started buying Boxsters and SLKs as it allowed them to live a little longer
Failure to make any attempt on QC speeded up the demise as public perception would have kept people away, but I don't think it was necassarily a defining cause on its own.
Certainly, the change of direction didn't help but they would still be making the Griff and Chimp if they were able to sell them. The world changed and TVR basically didn't/couldn't.
Now imagine if PW had sold out to one of the big firms that were supposedly courting him at the end of the 90s. We could be in a very different place right now
The guy got lucky with his timing but ran out of steam/drive when the company needed to change with the times.mel
i think you are probably right, it wont make any difference but what the organisers did for us the workforce with the london thunder and the thunderball made us all feel very proud to have been involved in the making of tvr,s. now quite a few of us want to own one, it has all been great fun, as for all the stick given to the russian and his sex aid md, if you had worked there you would know it is well founded
i think you are probably right, it wont make any difference but what the organisers did for us the workforce with the london thunder and the thunderball made us all feel very proud to have been involved in the making of tvr,s. now quite a few of us want to own one, it has all been great fun, as for all the stick given to the russian and his sex aid md, if you had worked there you would know it is well founded
a.g. said:
mel said:
Loads of unemotional comments, most of which hold water.
but I am sure I can hear the calls of "Hang the heretic!" as the posse appear over the hill. You will probably require something akin to the witness protection programme. The truth often does hurt and I'm sure you're right that many will condem me for saying it, I suspect Ted may have disabled the pm facility from my profile to prevent my inbox exploding with death threats
. However it is some consolation to see so many comments confirming my view on events and not just one liners saying "WTF do you know t0sser hope you rot in hell" I would also like to confirm that to date my pm inbox has only contained comments along the lines of "Brave man well said" I Honestly thought I would spend half an hour complilling the original post to see a life expectancy measured in minutes before it got pulled.Also agree with most of what has been said, I was someone who put down his wedge of cash last April and now hasn't got a warranty, but I did half expect it when I bought the car. Now is the time for everyone to move on, workers and owners. Let's get back to talking about enjoying the cars. If a new British owner comes along then GREAT...if not ...we'll it was good whilst it lasted.
Horse_Apple said:
...
I suspect that even if the cars were more durable, the market for them has naturally shrunk. In the mid 90s you could pass a aweeping statement that most new Tivs were being bought by cash rich youngsters in the booming IT business or middle aged men with little to no mortgage and a desire to hark back to the days of the MG/AC/Healy etc.
Competition then appeared, IT incomes fell hugely for most sectors and the old farts started buying Boxsters and SLKs as it allowed them to live a little longer
Failure to make any attempt on QC speeded up the demise as public perception would have kept people away, but I don't think it was necassarily a defining cause on its own.
Certainly, the change of direction didn't help but they would still be making the Griff and Chimp if they were able to sell them. The world changed and TVR basically didn't/couldn't.
Now imagine if PW had sold out to one of the big firms that were supposedly courting him at the end of the 90s. We could be in a very different place right now The guy got lucky with his timing but ran out of steam/drive when the company needed to change with the times.
I suspect that even if the cars were more durable, the market for them has naturally shrunk. In the mid 90s you could pass a aweeping statement that most new Tivs were being bought by cash rich youngsters in the booming IT business or middle aged men with little to no mortgage and a desire to hark back to the days of the MG/AC/Healy etc.
Competition then appeared, IT incomes fell hugely for most sectors and the old farts started buying Boxsters and SLKs as it allowed them to live a little longer
Failure to make any attempt on QC speeded up the demise as public perception would have kept people away, but I don't think it was necassarily a defining cause on its own.
Certainly, the change of direction didn't help but they would still be making the Griff and Chimp if they were able to sell them. The world changed and TVR basically didn't/couldn't.
Now imagine if PW had sold out to one of the big firms that were supposedly courting him at the end of the 90s. We could be in a very different place right now
The guy got lucky with his timing but ran out of steam/drive when the company needed to change with the times.Back to the original point, its human nature that if you see someone asleep at the wheel in a car that's running off a cliff you will probably shout to try and prevent the disaster. No one has the right to expect them to listen, as maybe they have taken sleeping pills and want to fall off the cliff or maybe they don't understand the significance of falling off it
There has certainly been that sort of thing on the TVR forum on PH plus plenty dreaming of what people would like at price points that are not realistic (esp how that recent Melling thread went off after a bit!)
The posts on the topic of the market are very good IMO, it boggles my brain as to why a company doesn't shrink according to demand and at least make an effort to reduce the rot? TVR had the advantage that steel tubes and fibreglass make it easy to get new models out, but the production boys have caught up to a point that hand made can't compete value wise (would say the 350Z and Monaro hammer this home).
The above paragraph and that the "glory years" had was the most appropriate engine at the time, was there a better choice in the mid 90's than the RV8? TVR had millions in the bank and his engine designer chum talked him into TVR engines. I dread to think how much AJP8 and SP6 cost TVR overall in millions, weakening the company. This is my guesswork, but when development and costs dragged on, a plug was pulled and the AJP6 became the SP6.
I probably was imprecise in the durability area, but more meaning of running costs. New TVR's cost more than older models, but say a 295bhp Boxster wouldn't cost more in servicing than an old 200bhp model (ignoring age issues).
Something TVR stopped doing was having upgrade paths IMO, so people get what they want and then upgrade themselves rather than aspire to something newer...
All this only really means that a small TVR could exist with no problem, but exactly how small it would be, who knows
a.g. said:
Its quiet.......too quiet.
Is it just me, or does anyone else consider the lack of input from the fundamentalist members of the extremist wing of the TVRCC to be eerily disconcerting?
There's many on here who have had a serious and prolonged lambasting for much lesser offences than this.
Run Mel run. We will hold them off as long as we can.
Is it just me, or does anyone else consider the lack of input from the fundamentalist members of the extremist wing of the TVRCC to be eerily disconcerting?
There's many on here who have had a serious and prolonged lambasting for much lesser offences than this.
Run Mel run. We will hold them off as long as we can.
Maybe all the fundamentalists think its time to move on?
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