Drawing a line in the sand
Discussion
Am I the only one getting fed up with reading some of this nonsense getting posted of late? We've heard all the slagging off, it's getting boring. We've all heard the arguments about goodies and baddies, the constant V8/S6 arguments, blah, blah, blah...
Let's try being a bit more sanguine.
You know, I reckon if Moleskins had been British, he wouldn't have been subject of so much abuse. Instead of being "filthy rich Russian kid who doesn't know his ar5e from his elbow" he'd more likely be a "shrewd businessman who has taken the only way out of a bad situation".
PW is hailed as a 'great Brit' because he refused to use a German engine. Didn't stop him trying to source cheap body shells from Malaysia, though, did it? Where was his patriotism then? Do you slag off Aston because they're owned by Ford?
Look around your houses. Every electrical product you have in your kitchen has probably been made in China, which is no doubt appropriate for cooking Kenyan beans and Peruvian asparagus with your New Zealand lamb.
This is a global economy. The UK losing its engineering heritage, heart-rending though it is, is inevitable while there are countries out there paying workers a couple of quid a day.
I very much doubt NS will shift production to Italy, as their labour costs are high (though not as much as as ours), and their taxes way higher. But if he does, at least that keeps it a European operation (yes, like it or not, we are part of Europe, get used to the idea). I would love TVR to be British. But if (and it's a big if) they were to be produced in Italy, that wouldn't stop me buying one, so long as it looks right, drives right and is the right price.
Anyway, on a lighter note... we are after all talking about the home of Alfa - superb styling, great performance, great workmanship, dodgy engines, well-dodgy reliability. Draw your own parallels
Let's try being a bit more sanguine.
You know, I reckon if Moleskins had been British, he wouldn't have been subject of so much abuse. Instead of being "filthy rich Russian kid who doesn't know his ar5e from his elbow" he'd more likely be a "shrewd businessman who has taken the only way out of a bad situation".
PW is hailed as a 'great Brit' because he refused to use a German engine. Didn't stop him trying to source cheap body shells from Malaysia, though, did it? Where was his patriotism then? Do you slag off Aston because they're owned by Ford?
Look around your houses. Every electrical product you have in your kitchen has probably been made in China, which is no doubt appropriate for cooking Kenyan beans and Peruvian asparagus with your New Zealand lamb.
This is a global economy. The UK losing its engineering heritage, heart-rending though it is, is inevitable while there are countries out there paying workers a couple of quid a day.
I very much doubt NS will shift production to Italy, as their labour costs are high (though not as much as as ours), and their taxes way higher. But if he does, at least that keeps it a European operation (yes, like it or not, we are part of Europe, get used to the idea). I would love TVR to be British. But if (and it's a big if) they were to be produced in Italy, that wouldn't stop me buying one, so long as it looks right, drives right and is the right price.
Anyway, on a lighter note... we are after all talking about the home of Alfa - superb styling, great performance, great workmanship, dodgy engines, well-dodgy reliability. Draw your own parallels
wedgie said:
Am I the only one getting fed up with reading some of this nonsense getting posted of late? We've heard all the slagging off, it's getting boring. We've all heard the arguments about goodies and baddies, the constant V8/S6 arguments, blah, blah, blah...
What's the bet that by page 5 of this, it turns into the old RV8/S6 chestnut
Edited by t350chunder on Tuesday 27th February 09:23
burriana said:
I've stopped reading the threads Wedgie as the story seems to change every day and it's making my brain hurt!
The home of Alfa? ... did anyone else think that the Alfa they showed on Top Gear was absolutely gorgeous? Can't remember the model name but Jaysus it was nice
The home of Alfa? ... did anyone else think that the Alfa they showed on Top Gear was absolutely gorgeous? Can't remember the model name but Jaysus it was nice
Can't remember, but you're right, it was lovely. We had a 156 GTA. I reckon it was the motoring version of Christina Aghuilera - looked great, sounded great, performance to make your hair curl... but you wouldn't take it home
wedgie said:
I very much doubt NS will shift production to Italy, as their labour costs are high (though not as much as as ours), and their taxes way higher.
My research suggests that if all on-costs are taken into consideration, far from being lower labour costs in Turin are higher than those paid to the workers at Bristol Avenue, and by a significant amount. If you go south in Italy then wages drop considerably but only Alfa would consider the building a factory there as a good idea. Production, I'm told, is also lower due to restrictive practices and to, apparently, 365 religious holidays each year.
I'm not being critical of the Italians. They've got their values sorted and we could learn a bit from them. British workers spend more hours at work than those of almost any other European nation.
wedgie said:
Some good points
Well said! I expect most of us get p1$$3d of with uncertainty in life - I know I do - and it's a shame that we have no certainty about the future of TVR which we love, but that's just the way it is.....
...let's enjoy what we've got and move on.
Life's too short...
wedgie said:
You know, I reckon if Moleskins had been British, he wouldn't have been subject of so much abuse. Instead of being "filthy rich Russian kid who doesn't know his ar5e from his elbow" he'd more likely be a "shrewd businessman who has taken the only way out of a bad situation".
Problem here is the reality check;
1. NS Is Russian, and the Brits just don't get what that indicates in today's business environment
2. As far as automotive business/engineering he clearly doesn't know his gluteals from his olecranon!
3. He is shrewd only in as much as he has found a way to throw more money away, after limiting his liability to a large sector of his creditors from his initial wasted 'investment'.
Life's a bitch when the facts keep getting in the way of a good yarn
wedgie said:
...
I very much doubt NS will shift production to Italy, ...
I very much doubt NS will shift production to Italy, ...
Depends on how you define TVR I guess. Kettles and toasters do not go on young lads bedroom walls!
The Italy statement IMO is not relavent since NS will have no production, that's the idea of "outsourcing". It could be "outsourced" to Bertone who could then subcontract to Eastern Europe or China. This potential trick of globalisation allows a prestige image to be done on the cheap, it certainly has been done for trainers
. 
My points are:
1 - If the guy had been British, he'd be 'the man who tried to save TVR'
2 - The business world is full of sharks, not saints. (I just had a thought... when you swim with sharks it doesn't matter how many there are, the only one that is relevant is the one with your leg in its mouth)
3 - I don't like the man or his morals, but I will buy the car I want based on its merits not on nationalistic feelings
1 - If the guy had been British, he'd be 'the man who tried to save TVR'
2 - The business world is full of sharks, not saints. (I just had a thought... when you swim with sharks it doesn't matter how many there are, the only one that is relevant is the one with your leg in its mouth)
3 - I don't like the man or his morals, but I will buy the car I want based on its merits not on nationalistic feelings
RichardD said:
wedgie said:
...
I very much doubt NS will shift production to Italy, ...
I very much doubt NS will shift production to Italy, ...
Depends on how you define TVR I guess. Kettles and toasters do not go on young lads bedroom walls!
The Italy statement IMO is not relavent since NS will have no production, that's the idea of "outsourcing". It could be "outsourced" to Bertone who could then subcontract to Eastern Europe or China. This potential trick of globalisation allows a prestige image to be done on the cheap, it certainly has been done for trainers
. I got Kylie on my wall... but I reckon I have a better chance of buying a new TVR
Aren't Bertone owned by the Chinese anyway?
Young Mr. Smolenski brought vital cash injection to TVR at a time when it was needed. Mr. Wheeler was near to retirement age and wished to sell the business. Buyer and seller came to an agreement and money changed hands. It appears the young buyer did not fully undertake the due diligence process during the process of purchasing.
From then it appears Mr. Smolenski made several business decisions that were to the detriment of the company, loosing expertise required to improve and maintain production. He ploughed significant funding into the company over a short period.
Ultimately he decided enough was enough while he was in control rather than have someone else do it on his behalf (compulsory winding up) and took what he thought was the most appropriate legal business decision. He stated that he had a plan for the company moving forward, but it appears he needed to get rid of the baggage he had, and bring closure to some of his compounding debt.
Yet again, it appears the young Russian made errors that to correct, involved him paying IRO 2 Million GPB to reverse those error and put him back on track.
Those are broadly the facts but I’m sure someone will dispute them.
Speculation on here is around – Has the marque got a future? Would it have been better with Mr. Melling or ANOther at the helm? Were the actions the young Russian took legal?? Who knows – only time will tell.
In the short term, there is potentially an issue over warranties being honored on cars sold in the last three years, and some concern regarding residuals on those newer cars. Again, only time will tell if those concerns turn out to be real.
What has happened has happened and no amount of regurgitating the issues will resolve anything. The ex-workers are where they are, but as preferential creditors and 2 Million raised for the sale of the BA asset, they may see some further cash settlement to ease their job loss.
As owners all we can do is to enjoy what we have and try to stay positive. To worry about that which you have no control or method of influencing is a folly – get your Tiv out and enjoy it, life is to short.........as the post suggests, time to draw a line.
From then it appears Mr. Smolenski made several business decisions that were to the detriment of the company, loosing expertise required to improve and maintain production. He ploughed significant funding into the company over a short period.
Ultimately he decided enough was enough while he was in control rather than have someone else do it on his behalf (compulsory winding up) and took what he thought was the most appropriate legal business decision. He stated that he had a plan for the company moving forward, but it appears he needed to get rid of the baggage he had, and bring closure to some of his compounding debt.
Yet again, it appears the young Russian made errors that to correct, involved him paying IRO 2 Million GPB to reverse those error and put him back on track.
Those are broadly the facts but I’m sure someone will dispute them.
Speculation on here is around – Has the marque got a future? Would it have been better with Mr. Melling or ANOther at the helm? Were the actions the young Russian took legal?? Who knows – only time will tell.
In the short term, there is potentially an issue over warranties being honored on cars sold in the last three years, and some concern regarding residuals on those newer cars. Again, only time will tell if those concerns turn out to be real.
What has happened has happened and no amount of regurgitating the issues will resolve anything. The ex-workers are where they are, but as preferential creditors and 2 Million raised for the sale of the BA asset, they may see some further cash settlement to ease their job loss.
As owners all we can do is to enjoy what we have and try to stay positive. To worry about that which you have no control or method of influencing is a folly – get your Tiv out and enjoy it, life is to short.........as the post suggests, time to draw a line.
wedgie said:
Am I the only one getting fed up with reading some of this nonsense getting posted of late? We've heard all the slagging off, it's getting boring. We've all heard the arguments about goodies and baddies, the constant V8/S6 arguments, blah, blah, blah...
Let's try being a bit more sanguine.
You know, I reckon if Moleskins had been British, he wouldn't have been subject of so much abuse. Instead of being "filthy rich Russian kid who doesn't know his ar5e from his elbow" he'd more likely be a "shrewd businessman who has taken the only way out of a bad situation".
PW is hailed as a 'great Brit' because he refused to use a German engine. Didn't stop him trying to source cheap body shells from Malaysia, though, did it? Where was his patriotism then? Do you slag off Aston because they're owned by Ford?
Look around your houses. Every electrical product you have in your kitchen has probably been made in China, which is no doubt appropriate for cooking Kenyan beans and Peruvian asparagus with your New Zealand lamb.
This is a global economy. The UK losing its engineering heritage, heart-rending though it is, is inevitable while there are countries out there paying workers a couple of quid a day.
I very much doubt NS will shift production to Italy, as their labour costs are high (though not as much as as ours), and their taxes way higher. But if he does, at least that keeps it a European operation (yes, like it or not, we are part of Europe, get used to the idea). I would love TVR to be British. But if (and it's a big if) they were to be produced in Italy, that wouldn't stop me buying one, so long as it looks right, drives right and is the right price.
Anyway, on a lighter note... we are after all talking about the home of Alfa - superb styling, great performance, great workmanship, dodgy engines, well-dodgy reliability. Draw your own parallels
Let's try being a bit more sanguine.
You know, I reckon if Moleskins had been British, he wouldn't have been subject of so much abuse. Instead of being "filthy rich Russian kid who doesn't know his ar5e from his elbow" he'd more likely be a "shrewd businessman who has taken the only way out of a bad situation".
PW is hailed as a 'great Brit' because he refused to use a German engine. Didn't stop him trying to source cheap body shells from Malaysia, though, did it? Where was his patriotism then? Do you slag off Aston because they're owned by Ford?
Look around your houses. Every electrical product you have in your kitchen has probably been made in China, which is no doubt appropriate for cooking Kenyan beans and Peruvian asparagus with your New Zealand lamb.
This is a global economy. The UK losing its engineering heritage, heart-rending though it is, is inevitable while there are countries out there paying workers a couple of quid a day.
I very much doubt NS will shift production to Italy, as their labour costs are high (though not as much as as ours), and their taxes way higher. But if he does, at least that keeps it a European operation (yes, like it or not, we are part of Europe, get used to the idea). I would love TVR to be British. But if (and it's a big if) they were to be produced in Italy, that wouldn't stop me buying one, so long as it looks right, drives right and is the right price.
Anyway, on a lighter note... we are after all talking about the home of Alfa - superb styling, great performance, great workmanship, dodgy engines, well-dodgy reliability. Draw your own parallels
I've tried several times to suggest people move on but you generally just get negative remarks back. We all must agree that TVR must be ongoing Smolenski is certainly prepared to put money up front to that. I say give the guy a chance
This wasn't really intended to be a "phwoargh, look at the Alpha" thread, but what the Hell. It makes a pleasant change from the "NS is the devil incarnate/TVR should have stuck to V8s/they should re-launch the Griff/I've designed a new TVR in the back of my maths book/Alan Melling will turn TVR round"-type rubbish that is dragging this site down.
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