Fog Lights - Poor Visibility - Your observations please.
Discussion
Help me with some observations on this.
I travel about 60 miles a day on the M5, when there is heavy rain and subsequently spray I turn my front and rear fog lights on. Yes I do try to estimate the highway code 100m rule
but also I would rather be seen than not seen.
In the last week, in heavy spray conditions I have experienced "spray rage" with two people charging up behind me, lights on full, flashing. One white van man changed lanes rapidly to overtake, then cut in front of me turning the hazard lights on.
It seems to me that whilst it is socially acceptable for every chav to drive around with their front fogs on, as soon as you use them in a legitimate situation you get a bad / ill informed / aggresive reaction. In the case of the white van I did actually turn them off because I felt he was a real danger to other people on the motorway.
Any other experiences / observations ?
PS. Yes I did subsequently check all my lights, brake lights etc, just in case they were kindly trying to inform me of some malfunction.
O/T because this is not purely TVR related as they don't have front fog lights that I am aware of.
Here is what the highway code has to say.
"201: You MUST use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced, generally when you cannot see for more than 100 metres (328 feet). You may also use front or rear fog lights but you MUST switch them off when visibility improves (see Rule 211).
Law RVLR regs 25 & 27 "
I travel about 60 miles a day on the M5, when there is heavy rain and subsequently spray I turn my front and rear fog lights on. Yes I do try to estimate the highway code 100m rule
but also I would rather be seen than not seen.
In the last week, in heavy spray conditions I have experienced "spray rage" with two people charging up behind me, lights on full, flashing. One white van man changed lanes rapidly to overtake, then cut in front of me turning the hazard lights on.
It seems to me that whilst it is socially acceptable for every chav to drive around with their front fogs on, as soon as you use them in a legitimate situation you get a bad / ill informed / aggresive reaction. In the case of the white van I did actually turn them off because I felt he was a real danger to other people on the motorway.
Any other experiences / observations ?
PS. Yes I did subsequently check all my lights, brake lights etc, just in case they were kindly trying to inform me of some malfunction.
O/T because this is not purely TVR related as they don't have front fog lights that I am aware of.
Here is what the highway code has to say.
"201: You MUST use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced, generally when you cannot see for more than 100 metres (328 feet). You may also use front or rear fog lights but you MUST switch them off when visibility improves (see Rule 211).
Law RVLR regs 25 & 27 "
Don't use fogs in heavy rain. The bright light is scattered by the rain droplets and is actually very dazzling. Also the rear fogs mask brake lights - and you really, REALLY want people behind to know you are braking when its that wet.
Not to put too fine a point on it fog lights are called fog lights because they are appropriate to use...when its foggy. And, of course, only when visibility drops to below 100m.
Good for you for thinking about the problem and asking advice.
Not to put too fine a point on it fog lights are called fog lights because they are appropriate to use...when its foggy. And, of course, only when visibility drops to below 100m.
Good for you for thinking about the problem and asking advice.
Never ever use rear fogs at night! These are high intensity lights designed to penetrate thick fog, but are too bright for night use. You should be able to judge from vehicles in front of you what the level of visibility is and whether rear fogs are required.
Front fogs are designed to provide a low wide beam to penetrate under fog cover, specifically to illuminate the sides of the road. These are generally only effective at night, normally in conditions when you find the headlight beams being reflected back off the fog.
Front fogs are designed to provide a low wide beam to penetrate under fog cover, specifically to illuminate the sides of the road. These are generally only effective at night, normally in conditions when you find the headlight beams being reflected back off the fog.
In cases where there is seriously reduced visibility due to fog, spray or other such conditions, rear high intensity lights must be used. It is an offence not to do so and, if you are prosecuted, the fact that you had your other lights on in daylight can be used as evidence against you. I.e. if visibility is bad enough for you to require headlamps, it is evidence that you believed visibility to be seriously reduced.
I was recently driving through some of the thickest fog I have seen for some years and was surprised to find that only around 30% of other drivers thought to switch their rear high intensity lights on.
You were quite right to put your lights on. If only more people were as sensible. There is a thesis waiting to be writen on why youngsters think it is cool to have their front fogs on even in clear daylight but would rather put themselves at risk than put the rear ones on. Some people are wierd.
The sensible test is whether you can clearly see the rear lights of the car in front when you are driving at a safe distance. If the car behind you finds your lights uncomfortable in such circumstances, they are driving far too close.
I was recently driving through some of the thickest fog I have seen for some years and was surprised to find that only around 30% of other drivers thought to switch their rear high intensity lights on.
You were quite right to put your lights on. If only more people were as sensible. There is a thesis waiting to be writen on why youngsters think it is cool to have their front fogs on even in clear daylight but would rather put themselves at risk than put the rear ones on. Some people are wierd.
The sensible test is whether you can clearly see the rear lights of the car in front when you are driving at a safe distance. If the car behind you finds your lights uncomfortable in such circumstances, they are driving far too close.
Don said:
Don't use fogs in heavy rain. The bright light is scattered by the rain droplets and is actually very dazzling. Also the rear fogs mask brake lights - and you really, REALLY want people behind to know you are braking when its that wet.
Not to put too fine a point on it fog lights are called fog lights because they are appropriate to use...when its foggy. And, of course, only when visibility drops to below 100m.
Good for you for thinking about the problem and asking advice.
Not to put too fine a point on it fog lights are called fog lights because they are appropriate to use...when its foggy. And, of course, only when visibility drops to below 100m.
Good for you for thinking about the problem and asking advice.
...what he said
Derek Smith said:
You were quite right to put your lights on. .............. If the car behind you finds your lights uncomfortable in such circumstances, they are driving far too close.
With respect, I think thats not correct. The visibility below 100m (328ft) rule is difficult to judge, but its nevertheless a question of common sense. If you are unable to see a car when it is 328ft ahead then you need your fogs on. If you can then you don't. Whilst front fogs are an aid to the driver in terms of seeing where he's going, the purpose of the rear fogs is to flag up your presence to the car behind you, nothing more. Heavy rain is rarely heavy enough to reduce visibility to below 328ft - (the point when you could legitimately turn them on) . Rear fogs in normal rain only serve to dazzle anyone behind. They are dangerous when used inappropriately. You could argue that people should not be closer than 50 metres in the rain, but that is not practicable in the real world. Use prudence when using rear and front fogs. If you genuinely cannot see or be seen then use them. If you can see reasonably well then don't, and avoid the hassle from other motorists who will othereise get annoyed by your dazzling them.
Edited by andymadmak on Wednesday 7th March 15:00
andymadmak said:
Heavy rain is rarely heavy enough to reduce visibility to below 328ft
That is true but the visibilty problem on motorway's is not the rain itself so much as the spray and this is what the OP was referring to. I don't know what the law is but the sensibale advice is, as Derek and other posters have pointed out, if you can't see the car in front because of reduced visibility, the prudent thing to do is to put your rear fogs on. I know I do. If people have a problem with it at least it means they have seen you.
I agree front fog lights should only be on when your headlights are being reflected back towards you by fog. The problem is not so much their intensity but the fact that they are set low and almost horizontal to the road. A slight tilting of the road then means that they dazzle oncoming drivers.
I di wish car mags would not take pictures with them always on too.
Rear fogs should only be used likewise in reduced visibility. I often see them used in rain and it is a real pain and also deflects from braking lights. In my opinion it is very very seldom that rain or spray reduces visibility to require rear fogs.
Other legitimate use for rear fog is when you are being followed by a muppet with their fogs blazing and you want to dazzle them back !!
I di wish car mags would not take pictures with them always on too.
Rear fogs should only be used likewise in reduced visibility. I often see them used in rain and it is a real pain and also deflects from braking lights. In my opinion it is very very seldom that rain or spray reduces visibility to require rear fogs.
Other legitimate use for rear fog is when you are being followed by a muppet with their fogs blazing and you want to dazzle them back !!
Edited by xtr2turbo on Wednesday 7th March 17:12
Be careful of mixing the Highway Code and legislation. The law changes as the cases come to court and are challenged - stated cases, e.g. those that have gone to a higher appeal court, refine and in theory explain. The HC is a guide only and if it is updated by lawyers it doesn't show. It can be used to support a prosecution for a specific offence but it is best to refer to the statute and relevant case law.
For instance, if you drive into the back of the car in front of you you will probably be reported for careless driving and the supporting evidence might be that you were not driving to the limits set by the HC. Even if you hit a patch of ice, or poor road surface, if you were not at least at the minimum distance set by the HC you would still be convicted.
The law is very complex nowadays and no one knows all the various traffic laws. Reference books are essential as is up to date information on case law. And, of course, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The people who have no idea what they are talking about are the ones who are definitive as to the law. Just try and get a straight answer from a brief, and this applies to questions other than their bill as well.
The thing with rear fogs is that if visibility is reduced and you would prefer the car in front to be displaying his high intensity lights, then put yours on. It makes it better for the bloke behind and, most importantly, it is safer for you.
By the way, I was in charge of a process unit in my force and one chap sadi he would plead not guilty to having his rear fogs on and, as supporting evidence, stated that the police car which stopped him had its headlights on. The case was binned and the PC given advice. I.e. don't waste my staff's time.
For instance, if you drive into the back of the car in front of you you will probably be reported for careless driving and the supporting evidence might be that you were not driving to the limits set by the HC. Even if you hit a patch of ice, or poor road surface, if you were not at least at the minimum distance set by the HC you would still be convicted.
The law is very complex nowadays and no one knows all the various traffic laws. Reference books are essential as is up to date information on case law. And, of course, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The people who have no idea what they are talking about are the ones who are definitive as to the law. Just try and get a straight answer from a brief, and this applies to questions other than their bill as well.
The thing with rear fogs is that if visibility is reduced and you would prefer the car in front to be displaying his high intensity lights, then put yours on. It makes it better for the bloke behind and, most importantly, it is safer for you.
By the way, I was in charge of a process unit in my force and one chap sadi he would plead not guilty to having his rear fogs on and, as supporting evidence, stated that the police car which stopped him had its headlights on. The case was binned and the PC given advice. I.e. don't waste my staff's time.
Edited by Derek Smith on Wednesday 7th March 19:20
wedgeman said:
Also the rear fogs mask brake lights - and you really, REALLY want people behind to know you are braking when its that wet.
It never ceases to amaze me that very few drivers seem to consider how their rear lights appear to other road users by just simply looking at the driver(s) in front.
If they can see rear lights several hundred yards ahead, then they might like to reconsider whether they need their own rear fogs on - and constantly review this as the conditions change.
Edited by chim666 on Wednesday 7th March 19:47
Fog Lights- Foggy conditions
Poor visibility due to spray/rain - slow down
Common sense really.
As previous contributor- rear fogs in rain mask your brake lights as your eye is focused on the red intensity and doesnt recognise when something of the same colour appears in a lower intensity.
Strangely enough thats why we dont have Red- slightly lighter red and rose coloured traffic lights.
Sorry if causes offence, but just stating the obvious
Poor visibility due to spray/rain - slow down
Common sense really.
As previous contributor- rear fogs in rain mask your brake lights as your eye is focused on the red intensity and doesnt recognise when something of the same colour appears in a lower intensity.
Strangely enough thats why we dont have Red- slightly lighter red and rose coloured traffic lights.
Sorry if causes offence, but just stating the obvious
i have been in very, very heavy spray maybe 7 or 8 times in 10 years of approx 50,000 mile a year on the autobahn, each time only maybe for 10 or 15 minutes, when i could not see the lights of cars in front of me, some of whom were slowing rapidly due to this standing water and spray, some others who were still steaming up from behind me at 100mph plus
on these occasions, i put on my rear fogs until it had cleared a bit and i could see the 'normal' rear lights of those in front
edit: or until there was someone staying behind me
on these occasions, i put on my rear fogs until it had cleared a bit and i could see the 'normal' rear lights of those in front
edit: or until there was someone staying behind me
Edited by hugoagogo on Thursday 8th March 10:52
With rear fog lights I follow a simple as advised to me on an advanced driving course ... In cases of poor visibility when you think rear fog lights may be necessary then if you cannot see a car behind, switch them on, as soon as the car gets close enough and you think the driver can see you, switch them off, after all they are there to help you be seen, not as a 'force field' to maintain an exclusion zone.
Derek Smith said:
Be careful of mixing the Highway Code and legislation. The law changes as the cases come to court and are challenged - stated cases, e.g. those that have gone to a higher appeal court, refine and in theory explain. The HC is a guide only and if it is updated by lawyers it doesn't show. It can be used to support a prosecution for a specific offence but it is best to refer to the statute and relevant case law.
For instance, if you drive into the back of the car in front of you you will probably be reported for careless driving and the supporting evidence might be that you were not driving to the limits set by the HC. Even if you hit a patch of ice, or poor road surface, if you were not at least at the minimum distance set by the HC you would still be convicted.
The law is very complex nowadays and no one knows all the various traffic laws. Reference books are essential as is up to date information on case law. And, of course, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The people who have no idea what they are talking about are the ones who are definitive as to the law. Just try and get a straight answer from a brief, and this applies to questions other than their bill as well.
The thing with rear fogs is that if visibility is reduced and you would prefer the car in front to be displaying his high intensity lights, then put yours on. It makes it better for the bloke behind and, most importantly, it is safer for you.
By the way, I was in charge of a process unit in my force and one chap sadi he would plead not guilty to having his rear fogs on and, as supporting evidence, stated that the police car which stopped him had its headlights on. The case was binned and the PC given advice. I.e. don't waste my staff's time.
For instance, if you drive into the back of the car in front of you you will probably be reported for careless driving and the supporting evidence might be that you were not driving to the limits set by the HC. Even if you hit a patch of ice, or poor road surface, if you were not at least at the minimum distance set by the HC you would still be convicted.
The law is very complex nowadays and no one knows all the various traffic laws. Reference books are essential as is up to date information on case law. And, of course, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The people who have no idea what they are talking about are the ones who are definitive as to the law. Just try and get a straight answer from a brief, and this applies to questions other than their bill as well.
The thing with rear fogs is that if visibility is reduced and you would prefer the car in front to be displaying his high intensity lights, then put yours on. It makes it better for the bloke behind and, most importantly, it is safer for you.
By the way, I was in charge of a process unit in my force and one chap sadi he would plead not guilty to having his rear fogs on and, as supporting evidence, stated that the police car which stopped him had its headlights on. The case was binned and the PC given advice. I.e. don't waste my staff's time.
Edited by Derek Smith on Wednesday 7th March 19:20
This is an interesting one. The issue regards rear fogs is quite clear to me. The issue regarding front fogs annoys me intensly. I believe that more recently the law was changed to make front fog use in conditions other than fog illegal. I have also seen the comments , usually by the ill informed that they feel "Chavs use them to show off"
A front fog lamp does not blind oncoming motorists. The beam spread is shorter but wider than a normal dipped headlight. The use of front fogs is often frowned upon but consider that the use of these in conjunction with dipped headlights gives a wider spread of light to illuminate the kerbs, As such they can only be a good thing to use since they illuminate an area of road which is not detrimental to oncoming traffic??
I travel 30 miles in the country in the mornings on poor single carriage roads. If I didn't use front fogs the death toll of Rabbits, Badgers, Deer, Stoats and Weasels would be horrific.
I do turn the fogs off when I hit the town and dual carriageway just to stop the ill informed Chav haters flashing there lights at me.
NOW ON THE OTHER HAND IDIOTS WHO DRIVE ON SIDE LIGHTS ONLY, AT NIGHT REALLY DO WIND ME UP.
DarkMatter said:
With rear fog lights I follow a simple as advised to me on an advanced driving course ... In cases of poor visibility when you think rear fog lights may be necessary then if you cannot see a car behind, switch them on, as soon as the car gets close enough and you think the driver can see you, switch them off, after all they are there to help you be seen, not as a 'force field' to maintain an exclusion zone.
An excellent explanation, if you can see the driver behind you don't need them on simple as that!. Fair play to those full beaming you from behind, they too are being blinded by full beam rear lights. Just don't be surprised if you get rear ended as the following traffic will get used to your fog lights & when you brake no-one will notice. If you can't see a car behind & their is traffic ahead then fair enough but get them off as soon as someone appears behind.
Derek Smith said:
For instance, if you drive into the back of the car in front of you you will probably be reported for careless driving and the supporting evidence might be that you were not driving to the limits set by the HC. Even if you hit a patch of ice, or poor road surface, if you were not at least at the minimum distance set by the HC you would still be convicted.
Edited by Derek Smith on Wednesday 7th March 19:20
Surely if you drive into the back of the car in front it is your fault whatever the circumstances !!!
And for my tuppence worth as has already been stated they are called fog lights not heavy rain lights
Edited by ttrigg on Thursday 8th March 11:03
ttrigg said:
Surely if you drive into the back of the car in front it is your fault whatever the circumstances
Not necessarily. Defences would include automatism, mechanical failure, a situation which you could not reasonably have anticipated i.e. load shed from lorry which dramatically affected braking distances and there are a few others. However, these defences might not work if you were driving at less than the safe distance for your speed quoted in the Highway Code. And you might still be liable financialy for the damages regardless of any defence.
he also said:
And for my tuppence worth as has already been stated they are called fog lights not heavy rain lights
They aren't called fog lights in the legislation.
Edited by Derek Smith on Thursday 8th March 12:08
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