What went wrong?
Discussion
Can anybody give me some advice?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr6HEfyA274
I know I turned in badly but why do Tuscan in general flic/flac two times and then are uncontrollable the third time? Its the first time I needed three "corrections" but lost it obviously the third time(not on the video). I probably over-corrected the second time!
I heard similar stories of people confronted with this phenomenon on the road with more serious consequences.
I saw a Sagaris going off at the same spot but is was completely different; it looked like a radio-controlled car, nothing to worry and rather safe or a much better driver hm hm.
Any reactions
Koen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr6HEfyA274
I know I turned in badly but why do Tuscan in general flic/flac two times and then are uncontrollable the third time? Its the first time I needed three "corrections" but lost it obviously the third time(not on the video). I probably over-corrected the second time!
I heard similar stories of people confronted with this phenomenon on the road with more serious consequences.
I saw a Sagaris going off at the same spot but is was completely different; it looked like a radio-controlled car, nothing to worry and rather safe or a much better driver hm hm.
Any reactions
Koen
I think you'll find its not so much the car as multiplying errors...
the car flicks back the first time because you've over corrected, when it does it again the error is amplified and you've no chance of correcting it.
The high gearing on the tuscans steering makes it easy to give the correct amount of steering input but also very easy to give it too much...
I'd put it all down to experience....
the car flicks back the first time because you've over corrected, when it does it again the error is amplified and you've no chance of correcting it.
The high gearing on the tuscans steering makes it easy to give the correct amount of steering input but also very easy to give it too much...
I'd put it all down to experience....
Too central on approach to bend, thus cut apex too fine; no idea of what laid ahead of that bend but you had already broken traction on the outside wheels after apex regardless.
Take the same bend further to the right on approach, don't change gear down before the bend, keep revs neutral to road speed through the apex and accelerate out.
Driver error, on the assumption car is set-up fine.
Take the same bend further to the right on approach, don't change gear down before the bend, keep revs neutral to road speed through the apex and accelerate out.
Driver error, on the assumption car is set-up fine.
DonnyMac said:
Too central on approach to bend, thus cut apex too fine; no idea of what laid ahead of that bend but you had already broken traction on the outside wheels after apex regardless.
Take the same bend further to the right on approach, don't change gear down before the bend, keep revs neutral to road speed through the apex and accelerate out.
Driver error, on the assumption car is set-up fine.
Totally agree, approach completely missed and entering speed was 110 KM and inexperience of course.Take the same bend further to the right on approach, don't change gear down before the bend, keep revs neutral to road speed through the apex and accelerate out.
Driver error, on the assumption car is set-up fine.
What do you mean by "already broken traction ...." and "don't change gear" (went back from fourth to second gear, no throttle, turned in, then no traction and I only pushed the gear-change paddle after the second correction which is to late."
Is there a still a way to control the slide or reducing the damage? I'm thinking of what happened if this occurred on the road. (then due to the road conditions, not the speed)
It will come down to practicing and learning from errors.
Went to a drifting coarse a couple of month ago. Was a real eye-opener. There you provoce everything, and expect the worst and try what you could do (with instructions/instructors=drift experts). Teaches you the habbits of the TVR. Mine, a wedge, doesn't let go that easy (which is great, and due to not a lot of BHP) but when it goes it is nearly impossible to 'catch' - especially without power steering and handover action is required. The coarse intention is to drift, but mine was to get experience with the behaviour. It was not hard on the car (is on front tyres), had a lot of fun (even caught the wedge a few times!!!) and learned a lot. Part of the experience is that I need to take the car more by the neck, and not be gentle..... In general I think that this experience probably won't help on the public roads, just when you are/were lucky and therefore drive sort of 'too safe'. TVR car club holland organises a handling/drifting course once a year. Why not try that. If you think it is too hard on the car, just stop then.
Rob
Rob
Can't see much on the video but the soundtrack is great.
Presume it's the wife sounding rather worried while the kiddie is laughing away.
Many years ago I managed to lose my 3000M late at night on a corner coming into Ladybower reservoir, over-corrected and swung it the opposite way, over-corrected again with the momentum and went all the way back the other way. Did this 5 times as the road had 5 sharp bends all perfectly placed to increase my speed like a slingshot.
As the car flew sideways onto the bridge I decided that I couldn't actually do anything to control it anymore and just let go of the wheel and took my foot off the pedals and waited for the impact. I ended up facing the wrong way round on the road with a Volvo on the other side of the bridge about 3 feet away from me.
I don't know how I avoided hitting anything but it's an experience that I've never forgotten. Nor have I forgotten how good the cigarette tasted that I lit up 5 minutes later when I'd found somewhere quiet to park up.
I don't smoke anymore and I don't drive like that anymore either.
Presume it's the wife sounding rather worried while the kiddie is laughing away.
Many years ago I managed to lose my 3000M late at night on a corner coming into Ladybower reservoir, over-corrected and swung it the opposite way, over-corrected again with the momentum and went all the way back the other way. Did this 5 times as the road had 5 sharp bends all perfectly placed to increase my speed like a slingshot.
As the car flew sideways onto the bridge I decided that I couldn't actually do anything to control it anymore and just let go of the wheel and took my foot off the pedals and waited for the impact. I ended up facing the wrong way round on the road with a Volvo on the other side of the bridge about 3 feet away from me.
I don't know how I avoided hitting anything but it's an experience that I've never forgotten. Nor have I forgotten how good the cigarette tasted that I lit up 5 minutes later when I'd found somewhere quiet to park up.
I don't smoke anymore and I don't drive like that anymore either.
engelborghs said:
DonnyMac said:
Too central on approach to bend, thus cut apex too fine; no idea of what laid ahead of that bend but you had already broken traction on the outside wheels after apex regardless.
Take the same bend further to the right on approach, don't change gear down before the bend, keep revs neutral to road speed through the apex and accelerate out.
Driver error, on the assumption car is set-up fine.
Totally agree, approach completely missed and entering speed was 110 KM and inexperience of course.Take the same bend further to the right on approach, don't change gear down before the bend, keep revs neutral to road speed through the apex and accelerate out.
Driver error, on the assumption car is set-up fine.
What do you mean by "already broken traction ...." and "don't change gear" (went back from fourth to second gear, no throttle, turned in, then no traction and I only pushed the gear-change paddle after the second correction which is to late."
Is there a still a way to control the slide or reducing the damage? I'm thinking of what happened if this occurred on the road. (then due to the road conditions, not the speed)
It will come down to practicing and learning from errors.
Nice car! The mkII should be a very good car handling wise.
Did you use heel and toe when you shifted down? If not, this will almost certainly result in braking traction. You should always use this technique, especially with TVR's. Furthermore, second gear is way too low for this corner. I would go to the right side of the track, brake hard, drop one gear (from fourth to third), let the car recover for a few meters and then steer in. Also don't press the clutch when you are trying to recover a slide, just steer that should do it.
Mind you, I think this is a very hard corner to get right; myself I succeeded in getting it (about) right only twice during the whole day! But then I'm only an amature too.
engelborghs said:
Can anybody give me some advice?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr6HEfyA274
I know I turned in badly but why do Tuscan in general flic/flac two times and then are uncontrollable the third time? Its the first time I needed three "corrections" but lost it obviously the third time(not on the video). I probably over-corrected the second time!
I heard similar stories of people confronted with this phenomenon on the road with more serious consequences.
I saw a Sagaris going off at the same spot but is was completely different; it looked like a radio-controlled car, nothing to worry and rather safe or a much better driver hm hm.
Any reactions
Koen
Not unusual for a Tuscan to tank slap but probably accentuated by over zealous steering. We have all been there I certainly have and learnt the basics to correct this on an airfield day with car limits. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr6HEfyA274
I know I turned in badly but why do Tuscan in general flic/flac two times and then are uncontrollable the third time? Its the first time I needed three "corrections" but lost it obviously the third time(not on the video). I probably over-corrected the second time!
I heard similar stories of people confronted with this phenomenon on the road with more serious consequences.
I saw a Sagaris going off at the same spot but is was completely different; it looked like a radio-controlled car, nothing to worry and rather safe or a much better driver hm hm.
Any reactions
Koen
Gerjo said:
Second gear is way too low for this corner. I would go to the right side of the track, brake hard, drop one gear (from fourth to third), let the car recover for a few meters and then steer in.
Sounds much like the way I take the corner Gerjo, and I probably take it slightly differnet every time too. In my opinion it' s the hardest corner to get right on the circuit.
difficult to know from the video and don't know your experience level either but a common novice mistake is to turn into the slide too much and/or hold the steering there for far too long, the car then ending up sliding the opposite way often into a barrier.
the technique I use (in an extreme slide situation) is to turn into the slide as quickly as possible then whip the wheel straight again, if i've done this too quickly I can always have another quick correction, seems to work well and haven't had a tank slapper for years.
of course if it's a gentle slide then you can either go with it or apply a little lock and hold it on the throttle, but that takes a bit more practice and balls to achieve
Hi all,
to rfisher:"Presume it's the wife sounding rather worried while the kiddie is laughing away."
correctomundo, she was worried and for my sun I'm still the champion
in a way, your going for a track day to explore your limits and in some case the cars limit. But the three times flic/flac is a typical Tuscan thing; i.e. one correction, then a second one and then if you (failed)need a third one .... sorry you're off. In that particular lap I had already two warnings so perhaps I should have been more precocious.
to Gerjo/Daftlad:"Did you use heel and toe when you shifted down?"
No, I'm not familiar with such technique and Yes second gear is to low.
May be it had been better to hold it a little bit on the throttle.
Daftlad : Third gear also since you have the close ratio box in the Sagaris?
to YI8TVR: Lets organize a track day at the Top Gear track with the Stig and without Jeremy and Hamster.
The "double gauche" at Spa has also allot of run off in case of slide only the speed is higher.
to Mike: It didn't look that bad in the beginning, .... that was before I turned the wheel the opposite way ha ha ...
Koen
to rfisher:"Presume it's the wife sounding rather worried while the kiddie is laughing away."
correctomundo, she was worried and for my sun I'm still the champion
in a way, your going for a track day to explore your limits and in some case the cars limit. But the three times flic/flac is a typical Tuscan thing; i.e. one correction, then a second one and then if you (failed)need a third one .... sorry you're off. In that particular lap I had already two warnings so perhaps I should have been more precocious.
to Gerjo/Daftlad:"Did you use heel and toe when you shifted down?"
No, I'm not familiar with such technique and Yes second gear is to low.
May be it had been better to hold it a little bit on the throttle.
Daftlad : Third gear also since you have the close ratio box in the Sagaris?
to YI8TVR: Lets organize a track day at the Top Gear track with the Stig and without Jeremy and Hamster.
The "double gauche" at Spa has also allot of run off in case of slide only the speed is higher.
to Mike: It didn't look that bad in the beginning, .... that was before I turned the wheel the opposite way ha ha ...
Koen
Edited by engelborghs on Saturday 23 June 21:18
Hi Koen,
I see you are still enjoying the Tuscan !
I think it is definitely heel-and-toe you need to do when changing down gears.
It is quite easy on the Tuscan, as the pedals are perfect placed for this.
I learned to do this on a trackday, and by doing this, it is really much easier to control the handling.
The Tuscan will always lock rear wheels if you change down gears too quickly, and this upsets the
balance of the car in a big way.
Regards,
Koen.
I see you are still enjoying the Tuscan !
I think it is definitely heel-and-toe you need to do when changing down gears.
It is quite easy on the Tuscan, as the pedals are perfect placed for this.
I learned to do this on a trackday, and by doing this, it is really much easier to control the handling.
The Tuscan will always lock rear wheels if you change down gears too quickly, and this upsets the
balance of the car in a big way.
Regards,
Koen.
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