TVR safety and reliability
Discussion
First, let me point out that I drove the Chim in to work this morning, with my dorky hat on to keep my head warm, and about half way through the journey a smile inexplicably appeared on my face and stayed there for quite some time.
Anyway
In light of the recent scary pictures of that T-boned Chimaera - and the tragic TVR Vixen fire where the poor girl lost her life - I was wondering how unsafe TVRs actually can be. I suppose we all get used to the concept that everything in the UK is so heavily regulated that if you can buy it legally, it must be safe. So how come TVR were able to produce and sell cars that have no side impact protection, have a propensity to burst into flames (as various people have reported to me - perhaps another bit of an urban myth, I don't know) and no bumpers etc? Surely if the cars really were deathtraps there would have been SOME kind of legislation that would have prevented them from being sold?
The second point - reliability. This is my first TVR and when I told my friends I bought it, they trotted out the usual jokes about ensuring my AA subscription was up to date etc. I said they were exaggerating and that it was typically people who had never been near a TVR that made such silly accusations.
Well bugger me, about a week after buying my car the clutch bearing seized and I couldn't get it into any gears. Fortunately it happened at home whilst I was trying to get the car into the garage, but if it had seized whilst driving, or even at work I really wouldn't have been amused.
I can't see how the cars - even if you accept that they are hand-built - should be fundamentally less reliable than a mass-produced car especially if the components sourced ARE mass-produced. Is the lack of reliability truly an urban myth and if not - why should they be unreliable? Particularly if you're looking at - say - a late 1990s Chimaera, where you would expect that due to the volumes already sold any early recurring issues would have been addressed and eliminated...
(Mine BTW is a 1998 Chim 4.0 which had recently had a new clutch - and the bearing still seized. It is possible I suppose that the bearing seized because the recent new clutch hadn't been installed correctly....? But again - it shouldn't be that easy to get it wrong, surely?)
Anyway
In light of the recent scary pictures of that T-boned Chimaera - and the tragic TVR Vixen fire where the poor girl lost her life - I was wondering how unsafe TVRs actually can be. I suppose we all get used to the concept that everything in the UK is so heavily regulated that if you can buy it legally, it must be safe. So how come TVR were able to produce and sell cars that have no side impact protection, have a propensity to burst into flames (as various people have reported to me - perhaps another bit of an urban myth, I don't know) and no bumpers etc? Surely if the cars really were deathtraps there would have been SOME kind of legislation that would have prevented them from being sold?
The second point - reliability. This is my first TVR and when I told my friends I bought it, they trotted out the usual jokes about ensuring my AA subscription was up to date etc. I said they were exaggerating and that it was typically people who had never been near a TVR that made such silly accusations.
Well bugger me, about a week after buying my car the clutch bearing seized and I couldn't get it into any gears. Fortunately it happened at home whilst I was trying to get the car into the garage, but if it had seized whilst driving, or even at work I really wouldn't have been amused.
I can't see how the cars - even if you accept that they are hand-built - should be fundamentally less reliable than a mass-produced car especially if the components sourced ARE mass-produced. Is the lack of reliability truly an urban myth and if not - why should they be unreliable? Particularly if you're looking at - say - a late 1990s Chimaera, where you would expect that due to the volumes already sold any early recurring issues would have been addressed and eliminated...
(Mine BTW is a 1998 Chim 4.0 which had recently had a new clutch - and the bearing still seized. It is possible I suppose that the bearing seized because the recent new clutch hadn't been installed correctly....? But again - it shouldn't be that easy to get it wrong, surely?)
zadumbreion said:
(Mine BTW is a 1998 Chim 4.0 which had recently had a new clutch - and the bearing still seized. It is possible I suppose that the bearing seized because the recent new clutch hadn't been installed correctly....? But again - it shouldn't be that easy to get it wrong, surely?)
Likely. Likely to happen every once in a while in any other marque's dealer workshop, too. Safety. Any car can have issues with fire, of late cars are fitted with fuel cut offs that should work in the case of collisions. Even so I have known several accidents where a modern car has gone up in flames, sometimes tragically. In fact not far from the sad accident with the Vixen a Ferrari also crashed and was destroyed in fire, its driver was also killed.
I would always suggest that the driver increases his driving capabilities through further instruction from the companies out there offering this, and I am not suggesting that any of these accidents were down to driver error as I do not know the circumstances, but anything that improves knowledge of the car and its handling characteristics can help to not get the driver into a situation in the first place.
Reliability. Some of these cars have been around for a while now and I would think that any euro box of a similar age would have the odd mechanical issue. I have owned my Griff for 6 months and have not had a problem, my 2 other 3 year old cars however during this time have had clutch, radiator, oil leak, instrument, ABS and drive shaft gaiter issues.
I would always suggest that the driver increases his driving capabilities through further instruction from the companies out there offering this, and I am not suggesting that any of these accidents were down to driver error as I do not know the circumstances, but anything that improves knowledge of the car and its handling characteristics can help to not get the driver into a situation in the first place.
Reliability. Some of these cars have been around for a while now and I would think that any euro box of a similar age would have the odd mechanical issue. I have owned my Griff for 6 months and have not had a problem, my 2 other 3 year old cars however during this time have had clutch, radiator, oil leak, instrument, ABS and drive shaft gaiter issues.
5.0ltr said:
Safety. Any car can have issues with fire, of late cars are fitted with fuel cut offs that should work in the case of collisions. Even so I have known several accidents where a modern car has gone up in flames, sometimes tragically. In fact not far from the sad accident with the Vixen a Ferrari also crashed and was destroyed in fire, its driver was also killed.
I would always suggest that the driver increases his driving capabilities through further instruction from the companies out there offering this, and I am not suggesting that any of these accidents were down to driver error as I do not know the circumstances, but anything that improves knowledge of the car and its handling characteristics can help to not get the driver into a situation in the first place.
Reliability. Some of these cars have been around for a while now and I would think that any euro box of a similar age would have the odd mechanical issue. I have owned my Griff for 6 months and have not had a problem, my 2 other 3 year old cars however during this time have had clutch, radiator, oil leak, instrument, ABS and drive shaft gaiter issues.
Interesting points actually - you're right, even a 1998 is a 10-year old car now. I hadn't thought of that - I still think of anything built in the 90's as being new. Hmmm.I would always suggest that the driver increases his driving capabilities through further instruction from the companies out there offering this, and I am not suggesting that any of these accidents were down to driver error as I do not know the circumstances, but anything that improves knowledge of the car and its handling characteristics can help to not get the driver into a situation in the first place.
Reliability. Some of these cars have been around for a while now and I would think that any euro box of a similar age would have the odd mechanical issue. I have owned my Griff for 6 months and have not had a problem, my 2 other 3 year old cars however during this time have had clutch, radiator, oil leak, instrument, ABS and drive shaft gaiter issues.
Your point re driving skills - I agree with you. But I wasn't talking about the lack of traction control or ABS. I realise that a car like this has to be driven with respect and skill - part of the reason I specifically went for a 4.0 - I was thinking more in terms of whether the car is inherently less safe in an accident than one might expect a modern UK-sold car to be. Was there some sort of dispensation or exemption that allowed TVR to build cars with less safety features than one would expect to see in a larger manufacturer? I assume the answer has to be yes, since they plainly DON'T have those features. Either that, or the relevant legislation is far less demanding than the market forces which make the larger manufacturers spend money on safety features.
Edited by zadumbreion on Thursday 21st February 11:47
this was always a niggle in my mind when driving through the back roads in my Griff. I was always planning to get a roll cage fitted to it but eventually sold it and bought a T350 instead. The T350's have a full driver & passenger roll cage fitted as standard...does this make the T350 the safest ever standard TVR ?
One of the (many) reasons I bought a T350 was better accident protection than my old Chimaera. But even the roll cage in the T350 isn't welded to the chassis, so it will only help to a certain extent. Anything is better than the complete lack of rollover protection in the Chimaera/Griffith.
Paxo1 said:
this was always a niggle in my mind when driving through the back roads in my Griff. I was always planning to get a roll cage fitted to it but eventually sold it and bought a T350 instead. The T350's have a full driver & passenger roll cage fitted as standard...does this make the T350 the safest ever standard TVR ?
As far as im aware the T350 also has side impact protection in the doors, as would the sags/tams/tuscans.Interesting points especially as I run an older, and therefore less protected, S2. Had thought about adding a roll cage but I understand that the fatality in the fire was due, at least in part, to the impact of the head against the roll cage, so now not sure.
One question is which fire extinguisher. Been to Halfords and then had two types for different classes of fires and sizes. I was confused and didnt buy. Can anyone guide me please.
One question is which fire extinguisher. Been to Halfords and then had two types for different classes of fires and sizes. I was confused and didnt buy. Can anyone guide me please.
Edited by Gerald-TVR on Thursday 21st February 12:56
I'm sure the reliability/un-reliability arguments will go on and on.....
The fact is that the quality of a hand built car, TVR or other, will never be 100% across the range of a given number of units produced. Many of the cars made may be near perfect, but some will not be.
When cars are made by machines each and every one of them will be almost identical beacause the machine has been told to make the car that way; Each bolt will be tightened with the correct amount of torque, each piece of trim will glued/attached with the correct amount of adhesive, each weld will be perfect etc etc.
Cars made by people are simply not the same. You can't tell me that the guy responsible for glueing the trim on a TVR used the exact same amount of adhesive each time, and so some cars have trim that peels/falls off. People are not pin-point accurate like machines, and so there will be variation.
TVR's are not alone here though.... You see a lot of people on here complaining that the Top Gear bunch always make a dig at TVR relability, but they do the exact same thing with Aston Martin's, Lamborghini's and Ferrari's. All handmade, all wonderful but brittle.
When someone jokes that TVR's are un-reliable educate them.
Some are, most aren't and they are created by a persons hard graft, not by a soulless machine. I know which I'd preferto have. 
As for the safety issues. Take it easy and understand the risks. Someone may correct me here but I think that the newer TVR's are safer (side impact protection etc.). The Griff, Chim and the older cars were designed and built in an era when these types of protection were not around or only just arriving. In the 90's there were many mass produced cars that didn't have side protection, not just TVR's.
Some of the cars have caught fire, but the cases I've heard about have been split fuel lines in the engine bay. This is something we should all keep a close eye on. Some of the reliability issues stem from the heat the engines generate. This heat can degrade components much faster than normal and this is also true of the fuel lines. Check them regularly and if they look cracked or damaged, replace them. Better safe than sorry... and having a fire extinguisher is a good idea.
The fact is that the quality of a hand built car, TVR or other, will never be 100% across the range of a given number of units produced. Many of the cars made may be near perfect, but some will not be.
When cars are made by machines each and every one of them will be almost identical beacause the machine has been told to make the car that way; Each bolt will be tightened with the correct amount of torque, each piece of trim will glued/attached with the correct amount of adhesive, each weld will be perfect etc etc.
Cars made by people are simply not the same. You can't tell me that the guy responsible for glueing the trim on a TVR used the exact same amount of adhesive each time, and so some cars have trim that peels/falls off. People are not pin-point accurate like machines, and so there will be variation.
TVR's are not alone here though.... You see a lot of people on here complaining that the Top Gear bunch always make a dig at TVR relability, but they do the exact same thing with Aston Martin's, Lamborghini's and Ferrari's. All handmade, all wonderful but brittle.
When someone jokes that TVR's are un-reliable educate them.
Some are, most aren't and they are created by a persons hard graft, not by a soulless machine. I know which I'd preferto have. As for the safety issues. Take it easy and understand the risks. Someone may correct me here but I think that the newer TVR's are safer (side impact protection etc.). The Griff, Chim and the older cars were designed and built in an era when these types of protection were not around or only just arriving. In the 90's there were many mass produced cars that didn't have side protection, not just TVR's.
Some of the cars have caught fire, but the cases I've heard about have been split fuel lines in the engine bay. This is something we should all keep a close eye on. Some of the reliability issues stem from the heat the engines generate. This heat can degrade components much faster than normal and this is also true of the fuel lines. Check them regularly and if they look cracked or damaged, replace them. Better safe than sorry... and having a fire extinguisher is a good idea.
Gerald-TVR said:
Interesting points especially as I run an older, and therefore less protected, S2. Had thought about adding a roll cage but I understand that the fatality in the fire was due, at least in part, to the impact of the head against the roll cage, so now not sure.
One question is which fire extinguisher. Been to Halfords and then had two types for different classes of fires and sizes. I was confused and didnt buy. Can anyone guide me please.
Roll cages are for competition cars. It highlights that if you want protection by a big chunk of steel inside your car then you either need to wrap the cage or wrap your head in something that will protect it. Roll cages by their nature are designed to protect the pasenger cell and should only ever be used in conjunction with full harnesses and a helmet.One question is which fire extinguisher. Been to Halfords and then had two types for different classes of fires and sizes. I was confused and didnt buy. Can anyone guide me please.
Edited by Gerald-TVR on Thursday 21st February 12:56
N.
I suppose one also has to decide how much to worry about the risks. This largely depends on how recently you've had an accident!
When I wrote my car off just before Christmas I wasn't hooning, wasn't being silly, was driving calmly - and smoothly and still ended up going through the bushes and into a tree head-on. But that was in a big heavy strong car with airbags etc. Clearly in a Chimaera I'd have been hurt.
That was my first proper accident in something like 25 years, and I think when you've been driving fast cars that long you somehow start to believe that as long as you're driving properly, you're immune. But then something like that happens and you realise that accidents can and DO happen.
Hmmmmmmm.
How about thinking of it this way - use the TVR for weekends / the odd commute - and then your time exposed to danger (compared with the [much safer] daily commute car) is reduced.
When I wrote my car off just before Christmas I wasn't hooning, wasn't being silly, was driving calmly - and smoothly and still ended up going through the bushes and into a tree head-on. But that was in a big heavy strong car with airbags etc. Clearly in a Chimaera I'd have been hurt.
That was my first proper accident in something like 25 years, and I think when you've been driving fast cars that long you somehow start to believe that as long as you're driving properly, you're immune. But then something like that happens and you realise that accidents can and DO happen.
Hmmmmmmm.
How about thinking of it this way - use the TVR for weekends / the odd commute - and then your time exposed to danger (compared with the [much safer] daily commute car) is reduced.
zadumbreion said:
How about thinking of it this way - use the TVR for weekends / the odd commute - and then your time exposed to danger (compared with the [much safer] daily commute car) is reduced.
It can happen even when you're not in your car! So whats next? Side impact protection in you front door? 
Clicky
davetherave1970 said:
zadumbreion said:
How about thinking of it this way - use the TVR for weekends / the odd commute - and then your time exposed to danger (compared with the [much safer] daily commute car) is reduced.
It can happen even when you're not in your car! So whats next? Side impact protection in you front door? Clicky
Blimey - I'm selling the house and sleeping in the Chim....Reliability? In 1998 I bought a brand new E class Merc. That should be reliable shouldn't it?..... WRONG! In the first month the ECU controlling the auto gearbox changes failed twice causing unrpredictable down-changes and a reluctance to change up from 2nd on random occasions.
Then a 'click' from the difff when reversing was remidied by the fitting of a new back axle! Then the warantee ran out just before the electric sun roof decided to gather up all it's cables and wrap them round one of the runners jamming the roof in it's frame.... Then a few years later one frosty morning in the middle of France the two ECUs controlling just abouut everything on the car failed resulting in a rental car to get back to the UK and return 2 weeks later to a £1,500.00 bill. This was followed by visits to THREE more MB dealerships in the UK before the main one in Malaga, (Southern Spain) managed to finally remedy all the electrical defects and restore the original settings.
Almost exactly a year ago I bought a Chim 450 of the same year as the Merc. I've had as much fun/pleasure/enjoyment with this car as any I can remember (prev. cars included E-Type, 911, AM DB4 Vantage,'stage 6' tuned MGBGT').
Now, let me see, what's gone wrong...? Oh, yes, I needed a new Meta alarm siren and that's IT!!! I drive it frequently throughout the year (not restricted to sunny summer only days); it has NEVER let me down, never missed a beat and nothing has failed, fallen off, jammed up or otherwise done anything other than what it is supposed to!!
OK, this is just one comparative example but it's true, first hand experience - a lot more than can be said for some of the nonsense heard leaning against the bar in the pub. Nick.
heightswitch said:
Roll cages are for competition cars. It highlights that if you want protection by a big chunk of steel inside your car then you either need to wrap the cage or wrap your head in something that will protect it. Roll cages by their nature are designed to protect the pasenger cell and should only ever be used in conjunction with full harnesses and a helmet.
Cerbera.
Targarama said:
One of the (many) reasons I bought a T350 was better accident protection than my old Chimaera. But even the roll cage in the T350 isn't welded to the chassis, so it will only help to a certain extent. Anything is better than the complete lack of rollover protection in the Chimaera/Griffith.
It must still be annoying that the maximum protection of the roll cage was not utilised by TVR.Targarama said:
One of the (many) reasons I bought a T350 was better accident protection than my old Chimaera. But even the roll cage in the T350 isn't welded to the chassis, so it will only help to a certain extent. Anything is better than the complete lack of rollover protection in the Chimaera/Griffith.
In my Race car the roll cage is only bolted to the chassis. and that is FIA approved.You are forgetting TVR had to pass CRASH TESTS to get the cars on the road.
So the following cars all had CRASH TESTS and Pasted them
3000M
TAIMAR
3000S
280I
350I
400SE
S
S2
S3
GRITTITH400/430/500
CHIMAERA400/500
CERBERA
TUSCAN
TAMORA
T350C
You also need to remember that we do live in the nanny state and thus all car makers need to do the crash tests and TVR are famous for the 3000M being able to be driven away from the crash test after the head on into the concrete block.
Side protection or lack off as in the incident discussed here will have the same result in any car if the driver does not take any avoiding action or braking before impact, which appears to be what occurred in that incident, whether its a TVR or anyother make.
T350C do not have a full cage in them the rear bars are not connected to the chassis, but the body floor, which is Fibre glass, not metal to metal.
What the Griff & Chimaera are missing and could do with is the roll hop round the windscreen like the Tuscan / Tamora have.
This is another reason why model line changes, newer models become safer models, page 3 models are always unsafe
So the newer the TVR the safer it is just like Audi or BMW the newer the model the safer it is.
Just my penny worth, but we all still live to drive and drive to live.
s
t happens, if your number is called its time to go and nothing is going to stop that.
Colin L
Away for a beer now..
So the following cars all had CRASH TESTS and Pasted them
3000M
TAIMAR
3000S
280I
350I
400SE
S
S2
S3
GRITTITH400/430/500
CHIMAERA400/500
CERBERA
TUSCAN
TAMORA
T350C
You also need to remember that we do live in the nanny state and thus all car makers need to do the crash tests and TVR are famous for the 3000M being able to be driven away from the crash test after the head on into the concrete block.
Side protection or lack off as in the incident discussed here will have the same result in any car if the driver does not take any avoiding action or braking before impact, which appears to be what occurred in that incident, whether its a TVR or anyother make.
T350C do not have a full cage in them the rear bars are not connected to the chassis, but the body floor, which is Fibre glass, not metal to metal.
What the Griff & Chimaera are missing and could do with is the roll hop round the windscreen like the Tuscan / Tamora have.
This is another reason why model line changes, newer models become safer models, page 3 models are always unsafe
So the newer the TVR the safer it is just like Audi or BMW the newer the model the safer it is.
Just my penny worth, but we all still live to drive and drive to live.
s
t happens, if your number is called its time to go and nothing is going to stop that.Colin L
Away for a beer now..
Edited by Colin L on Thursday 21st February 17:29
Edited by Colin L on Thursday 21st February 17:30
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