The fat car raced the skinny car....

[s6boy]

...and the fat car won .

Ok so it wasn't exactly scientific but 3rd gear roll on at 65 and Mr Nissan's new toy pulled away by 3 or 4 car lengths by the time the red change up light came on and very stable through a long sweeping curve. Impressive but there again I was the one with the roof off enjoying the sounds and smells . Would still love to have a go in one.

[nelly1]

GT-R?

No shame in that!

[yellow peril]

I've just booked for my son and other half to drive a Nissan GTR.
Buyagift.com under GTR experience.
£100.

Ulterior motives in mind although the Sag would have to stay put, she's not going anywhere!

YP

[Blown2CV]

GTR 0-60 in like 3.3s or something... maybe fat but considerably faster than just about any TVR. When you factor in that most TVRs would be beaten by a diesel in the 'overtaking' range to speed limit, its not really that surprising. I want a GTR!

[dvs_dave]

Blown2CV said:

When you factor in that most TVRs would be beaten by a diesel in the 'overtaking' range to speed limit, its not really that surprising.

There must be something very wrong with your TVR? Maybe a wheezy and old Chim 400, but anything with a healthy TVR engine will absolutely demolish ANY diesel at any speed. Simple power to weight ratios. Speed 6 and AJP8 TVR's are all 350bhp+ per ton. GTR is 270 bhp/ton. With all other things being equal, a Tuscan should be quicker in a straight line.

Shame on the OP for letting the side down by not getting his boot/gears down in time!

Edited by dvs_dave on Monday 3rd August 11:09

Edited by dvs_dave on Monday 3rd August 11:10

[T350 Al]

Blown2CV said:

When you factor in that most TVRs would be beaten by a diesel in the 'overtaking' range to speed limit, its not really that surprising.

Had a Diesel Merc on the M5 yesterday (with his kids in the back I might add)that thought much the same whilst trying to block me overtaking, God only knows why.


He couldn't have been more wrong either!

[RichardD]

dvs_dave said:

Blown2CV said:

When you factor in that most TVRs would be beaten by a diesel in the 'overtaking' range to speed limit, its not really that surprising.

There must be something very wrong with your TVR? Maybe a wheezy and old Chim 400, but anything with a healthy TVR engine will absolutely demolish ANY diesel at any speed. Simple power to weight ratios. Speed 6 and AJP8 TVR's are all 350bhp+ per ton. GTR is 270 bhp/ton. With all other things being equal, a Tuscan should be quicker in a straight line.

Shame on the OP for letting the side down by not getting his boot/gears down in time!

Edited by dvs_dave on Monday 3rd August 11:09

Edited by dvs_dave on Monday 3rd August 11:10

Its a bit more complex than that Dave.

The GTR could have more like 530bhp rather than 480bhp. Its performance is not consistant with its mass and 480bhp.

The 0-60 time of the GTR is due to the gearing (a short first gear that only does about 30mph) to help it rocket off the line with four wheel drive and the lightning fast gearbox. With a TVR time is wasted in wheelspin off the line and then changing gear into second.

A healthy Cerbera 4.5 would be quicker 20-60 in 2nd than a GTR with 530bhp.

On diesels - a BMW 330D is quicker 60-80 in 4th than a 230bhp Rover V8 car.

I know a PH'er who had a Pug 306 Diesel that he intercooled and increased the power of, so 160bhp. He now has a 3.0 Z4 and admits the Pug had far more acceleration in the same gear. Of course it ran out of steam at low speeds where the BMW is capable of much more speed in each gear so of course its a less lazy but more rewarding driving experience...

[T350 Al]

RichardD said:

dvs_dave said:

Blown2CV said:

When you factor in that most TVRs would be beaten by a diesel in the 'overtaking' range to speed limit, its not really that surprising.

There must be something very wrong with your TVR? Maybe a wheezy and old Chim 400, but anything with a healthy TVR engine will absolutely demolish ANY diesel at any speed. Simple power to weight ratios. Speed 6 and AJP8 TVR's are all 350bhp+ per ton. GTR is 270 bhp/ton. With all other things being equal, a Tuscan should be quicker in a straight line.

Shame on the OP for letting the side down by not getting his boot/gears down in time!

Edited by dvs_dave on Monday 3rd August 11:09

Edited by dvs_dave on Monday 3rd August 11:10

and admits the Pug had far more acceleration in the same gear. Of course it ran out of steam at low speeds where the BMW is capable of much more speed in each gear

Ah, a bit different than my (and it would seem other's) interpretation of the post. In-gear acceleration is a different story and I would agree that many diesels, due to their torque, would have impressive in-gear acceleration at certain speeds. I know the S6 would struggle to pull hard in fifth at 60-70 mph, perhaps higher; I wouldn't really know as I tend to work the gears a bit.

Never driven a V8 Tiv, but aren't they known for being torquey at low revs?

[GT TVR]

A healthy Griff/Chim 5.0 would destroy any diesel on in-gear acceleration (300-350 torques with only 1100 kg), in fact, it would take a true super car (F V12, Porker Turbo, etc) to beat it at that, especially if it is tuned a bit.

About the GTR: guess a 4.3 would do quite well against it, although the GTR does have a lot of torque ...

Edited by GT TVR on Monday 3rd August 14:25

[RichardD]

T350 Al said:

RichardD said:

dvs_dave said:

Blown2CV said:

When you factor in that most TVRs would be beaten by a diesel in the 'overtaking' range to speed limit, its not really that surprising.

There must be something very wrong with your TVR? Maybe a wheezy and old Chim 400, but anything with a healthy TVR engine will absolutely demolish ANY diesel at any speed. Simple power to weight ratios. Speed 6 and AJP8 TVR's are all 350bhp+ per ton. GTR is 270 bhp/ton. With all other things being equal, a Tuscan should be quicker in a straight line.

Shame on the OP for letting the side down by not getting his boot/gears down in time!

Edited by dvs_dave on Monday 3rd August 11:09

Edited by dvs_dave on Monday 3rd August 11:10

and admits the Pug had far more acceleration in the same gear. Of course it ran out of steam at low speeds where the BMW is capable of much more speed in each gear

Ah, a bit different than my (and it would seem other's) interpretation of the post. In-gear acceleration is a different story and I would agree that many diesels, due to their torque, would have impressive in-gear acceleration at certain speeds. I know the S6 would struggle to pull hard in fifth at 60-70 mph, perhaps higher; I wouldn't really know as I tend to work the gears a bit.

Never driven a V8 Tiv, but aren't they known for being torquey at low revs?

The smaller RV8 cars are more linear but the 5.0's are grunty. A dyno of my car shows it performing like a 340bhp car until the torque starts diving at 4500 rpm...So maybe "grunty" is a polite term for emphasising the mid range when the top end isn't as good

In order to help these discussions (or when they are arguments hehe), I've some simulation software.

Doing a graph (road speed vs acceleration in G) in 3rd gear of my Griff (283 @ 5k) vs a 360bhp Tuscan my Griff has a bit more acceleration until 70mph where my car is overtaken as the Tuscan pulls strongly past 100mph compared to mine which wants a gearchange at 80 ish .

[T350 Al]

RichardD said:

Doing a graph (road speed vs acceleration in G) in 3rd gear of my Griff (283 @ 5k) vs a 360bhp Tuscan my Griff has a bit more acceleration until 70mph where my car is overtaken as the Tuscan pulls strongly past 100mph compared to mine which wants a gearchange at 80 ish .

That holds with my experience of hard 3rd gear accelerating in the T350.

[Zippee]

T350 Al said:

RichardD said:

Doing a graph (road speed vs acceleration in G) in 3rd gear of my Griff (283 @ 5k) vs a 360bhp Tuscan my Griff has a bit more acceleration until 70mph where my car is overtaken as the Tuscan pulls strongly past 100mph compared to mine which wants a gearchange at 80 ish .

That holds with my experience of hard 3rd gear accelerating in the T350.

The T350 doesn't do much of anything until above 4000rpm! Catch a S6 car in the wrong gear and it can be beaten by a G-Whizz! Keep it spinning though and its bloody fantastic!

[Blown2CV]

British roads are the worst place to drive the iconic (should that be ironic) british sports car. On anything other than a glass flat surface Tivs are all over the place... this is the bit where someone says "its not how fast they go, its how they go fast" or something to that effect; which is at best still an acknowledgement that in reality, on 90% of britains roads, adhering to the speed limit, a modern with vaguely decent ride, ESP, TC would make mincemeat of a TVR. Yes, there is something very wrong with mine at the moment, although it is getting fixed. However when it is fixed it will be getting sold, because shockingly, the amount to which mine is broken and the amount I spend on it is pretty normal and yet I have driven about 100 miles since Xmas. I am not sure a GTR would be very different though TBH.

[dvs_dave]

RichardD said:

dvs_dave said:

Blown2CV said:

When you factor in that most TVRs would be beaten by a diesel in the 'overtaking' range to speed limit, its not really that surprising.

There must be something very wrong with your TVR? Maybe a wheezy and old Chim 400, but anything with a healthy TVR engine will absolutely demolish ANY diesel at any speed. Simple power to weight ratios. Speed 6 and AJP8 TVR's are all 350bhp+ per ton. GTR is 270 bhp/ton. With all other things being equal, a Tuscan should be quicker in a straight line.

Shame on the OP for letting the side down by not getting his boot/gears down in time!

Edited by dvs_dave on Monday 3rd August 11:09

Edited by dvs_dave on Monday 3rd August 11:10

Its a bit more complex than that Dave.

The GTR could have more like 530bhp rather than 480bhp. Its performance is not consistant with its mass and 480bhp.

The 0-60 time of the GTR is due to the gearing (a short first gear that only does about 30mph) to help it rocket off the line with four wheel drive and the lightning fast gearbox. With a TVR time is wasted in wheelspin off the line and then changing gear into second.

A healthy Cerbera 4.5 would be quicker 20-60 in 2nd than a GTR with 530bhp.

On diesels - a BMW 330D is quicker 60-80 in 4th than a 230bhp Rover V8 car.

I know a PH'er who had a Pug 306 Diesel that he intercooled and increased the power of, so 160bhp. He now has a 3.0 Z4 and admits the Pug had far more acceleration in the same gear. Of course it ran out of steam at low speeds where the BMW is capable of much more speed in each gear so of course its a less lazy but more rewarding driving experience...

Agree, I know it's not as simple as that as a good 0-60 time is basically all down to off the line traction.

A rolling dash with an 'S' spec Speed 6 TVR above 4k rpm (and the GTR on boost), the TVR will be quicker. When you start to factor in gear changes and corners though (TVR - 100% driver dependant, GTR 25% driver dependant), that's a completely different discussion.

FYI, for a GTR to have 350 bhp/ton, it would require at least 612 bhp which is well over standard (whatever that is).

[dvs_dave]

Blown2CV said:

British roads are the worst place to drive the iconic (should that be ironic) british sports car. On anything other than a glass flat surface Tivs are all over the place... this is the bit where someone says "its not how fast they go, its how they go fast" or something to that effect; which is at best still an acknowledgement that in reality, on 90% of britains roads, adhering to the speed limit, a modern with vaguely decent ride, ESP, TC would make mincemeat of a TVR. Yes, there is something very wrong with mine at the moment, although it is getting fixed. However when it is fixed it will be getting sold, because shockingly, the amount to which mine is broken and the amount I spend on it is pretty normal and yet I have driven about 100 miles since Xmas. I am not sure a GTR would be very different though TBH.

Nonsense, what you've said is all down to driver ability, not car ability. I think the best modern performance indicator/comparison are the TG power lap times. Look what it takes to beat a TVR round the track. Kind of says it all really.
And before you say it I know the GTR is much quicker round the track but we're not disputing that.

[Blown2CV]

So track surfaces are about the same quality as the average british road surface?

[dvs_dave]

Blown2CV said:

So track surfaces are about the same quality as the average british road surface?

Very simply a car with ESP/TC is just easier to drive fast. It is not by default faster.
DRIVER ABILITY!!!!

[RichardD]

dvs_dave said:

...FYI, for a GTR to have 350 bhp/ton, it would require at least 612 bhp which is well over standard (whatever that is).

Looking at a GTR in terms of power/weight is like doing the same with a Veyron. If the GTR didn't have its fancy gearbox its 0-100 time would be about 10 seconds instead of 8.5 (by adding on 2 * 0.7 secs for gearchanges) and not having 4wd would probably add on another 0.5secs from the initial first gear wheelspin.

A bit like a Veyron being quicker to 100 than a Mac F1, something it wouldn't do if it didn't have the transmission it does.

Cars like these though take a lot of stick to get away that quickly, something cars with more cc/weight don't suffer from as much

[Chimjunkie]

RichardD said:

Cars like these though take a lot of stick to get away that quickly, something cars with more cc/weight don't suffer from as much

Agree with this. To repeatedly get low 0-60 times the clutch would be toast on most 4wd hot machines. A TVR can do it all day long. Cant remember ever slipping the clutch on a quick getaway in the 500 chim.

[Blown2CV]

dvs_dave said:

Blown2CV said:

So track surfaces are about the same quality as the average british road surface?

Very simply a car with ESP/TC is just easier to drive fast. It is not by default faster.
DRIVER ABILITY!!!!

...and the suspension more forgiving of bumps, humps, lumps, cracks and potholes. Also, it may well be partly down to skill, but if a rep in a bimmer can be all over the tail of anything less than a track superstar (clearly this is the category you live in) driving a TVR then I would say this was a downside. I don't go about racing everyone, but fully admit I would rather have a car that is a bit easier to drive quickly.