When is a TVR not a TVR ?
Discussion
Is a TVR always a TVR, as long as it has a TVR shaped body ?
It strikes me that as long as the original silouette is kept true, it doesn't really matter what else happens. The car always remains a TVR.
Taking Boosted Cerb's stunning Cerbera as an example, with its Corvette engine, T56 box etc etc, it remains a TVR.
And then there is the even more extreme case of the GTF Sagaris race cars. I may be wrong but from what I can gather, they aren't even original shells and differ slightly, have a choice of Corvette Engines yet can still be safely called TVR's by enthusiastic race commentators and fans around the UK, although they never were TVR's in the first place.
So, it must just down to the shape ? If Boosted Cerb had installed an old 1.1 ltr Ford Fiesta Pop engine would you still be able to class it as a TVR ?
Are we licenced to do whatever we wish with our original TVR's due to the fact that they traditional were made to such a vast array of different specifications.
When does a TVR cease to be a TVR ?
It strikes me that as long as the original silouette is kept true, it doesn't really matter what else happens. The car always remains a TVR.
Taking Boosted Cerb's stunning Cerbera as an example, with its Corvette engine, T56 box etc etc, it remains a TVR.
And then there is the even more extreme case of the GTF Sagaris race cars. I may be wrong but from what I can gather, they aren't even original shells and differ slightly, have a choice of Corvette Engines yet can still be safely called TVR's by enthusiastic race commentators and fans around the UK, although they never were TVR's in the first place.
So, it must just down to the shape ? If Boosted Cerb had installed an old 1.1 ltr Ford Fiesta Pop engine would you still be able to class it as a TVR ?
Are we licenced to do whatever we wish with our original TVR's due to the fact that they traditional were made to such a vast array of different specifications.
When does a TVR cease to be a TVR ?
I guess it depends on where you're coming from.
Someone buying a TVR because they want a ' Blackpool TVR' will want something that is more or less as it came from the factory and so won't be interested in a highly modified car with a different/non original fitment engine.
In the future I would imagine that LS engined conversions or similar will be worth less than an original car but they well be viewed as 'period' conversions and of interest to enthusiasts and still worthy of being called a TVR as it's still 75% or more as it came from Blackpool (percentage figure depends on what you consider engine and gearbox contributes to the overall package)
Anyone who wants a performance car 'in the spirit' of a TVR will be happy to play around and convert the car as it suits them I imagine the quality and ethos behind the work will be very important.
Race cars are again different the race Sagari as they stand are evolutions of the TVR shape and in many cases at the moment the underpinnings as well. Usually the teams and people building & running them have a TVR history and so there is a genuine continuity there which still makes them a TVR imo.
Down the line when it's a fibreglass 'TVRish' shell on a folded alloy or pure carbon tub with no Blackpool connections then it just becomes a silouette with no real TVR DNA, much like the 'Lotus' team in F1 which imo is just a cynical marketing move.
Someone buying a TVR because they want a ' Blackpool TVR' will want something that is more or less as it came from the factory and so won't be interested in a highly modified car with a different/non original fitment engine.
In the future I would imagine that LS engined conversions or similar will be worth less than an original car but they well be viewed as 'period' conversions and of interest to enthusiasts and still worthy of being called a TVR as it's still 75% or more as it came from Blackpool (percentage figure depends on what you consider engine and gearbox contributes to the overall package)
Anyone who wants a performance car 'in the spirit' of a TVR will be happy to play around and convert the car as it suits them I imagine the quality and ethos behind the work will be very important.
Race cars are again different the race Sagari as they stand are evolutions of the TVR shape and in many cases at the moment the underpinnings as well. Usually the teams and people building & running them have a TVR history and so there is a genuine continuity there which still makes them a TVR imo.
Down the line when it's a fibreglass 'TVRish' shell on a folded alloy or pure carbon tub with no Blackpool connections then it just becomes a silouette with no real TVR DNA, much like the 'Lotus' team in F1 which imo is just a cynical marketing move.
V8 GRF said:
Race cars are again different the race Sagari as they stand are evolutions of the TVR shape and in many cases at the moment the underpinnings as well. Usually the teams and people building & running them have a TVR history and so there is a genuine continuity there which still makes them a TVR imo.
IIRC they're evolutions of the Tuscan challenge cars that were fitted with custom Sagaris bodies with a view to rejuvenate the series (right before Smolenski called off all factory motorsport involvement), right? In any case, if I were holding the rights to the TVR brand I would have no hesitiation to license these as bona fide TVRs - just like the Eurotech-built Marcoses kept the brand alive even though in the end only the front and rear screens were identical to the road cars, and no roadgoing cars had been built for a long while (before the ill-fated Stelliga effort) anyway. Interesting topic. I guess if most of the vehicle originated from Blackpool then that qualifies it in my eyes. Those Cerbs mentioned are most definitely TVR, they are exactly what TVR is all about - stunning looks, loud, mental fast.
Personally I would draw the line at any TVR-ish type of thing not originated in Blackpool, in my eyes Blackpool is the home of TVR and anything with the badge on not originally rolled out those factory doors just wouldn't quite cut it.
Personally I would draw the line at any TVR-ish type of thing not originated in Blackpool, in my eyes Blackpool is the home of TVR and anything with the badge on not originally rolled out those factory doors just wouldn't quite cut it.
LordGrover said:
V8 GRF said:
...
In the future I would imagine that LS engined conversions or similar will be worth less than an original car ...
Worth less to you maybe, but to someone who likes it/them it may be worth more. In the future I would imagine that LS engined conversions or similar will be worth less than an original car ...
Real or perceived performance and reliability improvements notwithstanding.
They'll be bound to be worth less to 'purists' though.
900T-R said:
V8 GRF said:
Race cars are again different the race Sagari as they stand are evolutions of the TVR shape and in many cases at the moment the underpinnings as well. Usually the teams and people building & running them have a TVR history and so there is a genuine continuity there which still makes them a TVR imo.
IIRC they're evolutions of the Tuscan challenge cars that were fitted with custom Sagaris bodies with a view to rejuvenate the series (right before Smolenski called off all factory motorsport involvement), right? In any case, if I were holding the rights to the TVR brand I would have no hesitiation to license these as bona fide TVRs - just like the Eurotech-built Marcoses kept the brand alive even though in the end only the front and rear screens were identical to the road cars, and no roadgoing cars had been built for a long while (before the ill-fated Stelliga effort) anyway. Dare i say it, but in my view - when you start to exchange engines, borrow parts from other manufacturers, the car is no longer a true TVR, and becomes more and more a kit car.
I know this will be a deeply unpopular view, but you wouldn't fit a corvette engine to a Ferrari, or a Porker - No? (I guess someone has..somewhere)
I know this will be a deeply unpopular view, but you wouldn't fit a corvette engine to a Ferrari, or a Porker - No? (I guess someone has..somewhere)
pddmac said:
... borrow parts from other manufacturers, the car is no longer a true TVR, and becomes more and more a kit car.
Thats what a TVR is as it left the factory surely!!!IMO its not a proper TVR when its wrapped in cotton wool 99% of the time and has hardly any miles on the clock.
Interesting thought...
Just read the various comments and a couple of things sprang to mind...
Which are worth more now....Triumph Stags with the original V8 or those that have a Rover V8 conversion..? Totally understand why it was done but which is now deemed to be more valuable?
The other thing was the often mentioned 'matching numbers'...assume this is reference to chassis, engine, etc numbers....if these are changed 'in the future' will non-matching numbers impact on the value..?
I personally would like the cars to be original but understand why they are changed. The LS engined Cerbs seem to be awesome!
Not sure about the nice shape, nice noise and fast = TVR...surely there are other marques that fit this bill as well (but maybe not as well as TVR!)? e.g. Marcos? TVR is a car 'built' by TVR? Others are TVR's in essence but maybe replica's..?
Just read the various comments and a couple of things sprang to mind...
Which are worth more now....Triumph Stags with the original V8 or those that have a Rover V8 conversion..? Totally understand why it was done but which is now deemed to be more valuable?
The other thing was the often mentioned 'matching numbers'...assume this is reference to chassis, engine, etc numbers....if these are changed 'in the future' will non-matching numbers impact on the value..?
I personally would like the cars to be original but understand why they are changed. The LS engined Cerbs seem to be awesome!
Not sure about the nice shape, nice noise and fast = TVR...surely there are other marques that fit this bill as well (but maybe not as well as TVR!)? e.g. Marcos? TVR is a car 'built' by TVR? Others are TVR's in essence but maybe replica's..?
I think the rationale that PW used for his 5000M racer is valid. Even though the TVR factory did not install the Ford V8 into the M series, the Canadian importer had, and gained factory approval. Moreover, TVR had already used this engine in the Griffith and Tuscan. So for me, I think I would still regard something as a TVR as long as it was powered by an engine that TVR had actually used in production of any other model (although putting a Pinto into a Sagaris would be pushing it somewhat!)
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dbv8 said:
pddmac said:
... borrow parts from other manufacturers, the car is no longer a true TVR, and becomes more and more a kit car.
Thats what a TVR is as it left the factory surely!!!IMO its not a proper TVR when its wrapped in cotton wool 99% of the time and has hardly any miles on the clock.
As for your suggestion that TVRs are no more than an assembly from someone else's parts bin - your's may have been, the latter ones were far from that...
The last statement I don't undertsand at all. But as someone who uses the households TVRs for pleasure and has more than one to spread the miles about, I would always dispute the statement. Wrapped up in cotton wool, well looked after, still with all the original chassis bits, no, they're TVRs right enough...
I like to think that wrapping things up and looking after them is preserving heritage rather than destroying.. either by neglect, abuse and tampering.
TVR_owner said:
dbv8 said:
pddmac said:
... borrow parts from other manufacturers, the car is no longer a true TVR, and becomes more and more a kit car.
Thats what a TVR is as it left the factory surely!!!IMO its not a proper TVR when its wrapped in cotton wool 99% of the time and has hardly any miles on the clock.
As for your suggestion that TVRs are no more than an assembly from someone else's parts bin - your's may have been, the latter ones were far from that...
The last statement I don't undertsand at all. But as someone who uses the households TVRs for pleasure and has more than one to spread the miles about, I would always dispute the statement. Wrapped up in cotton wool, well looked after, still with all the original chassis bits, no, they're TVRs right enough...
I like to think that wrapping things up and looking after them is preserving heritage rather than destroying.. either by neglect, abuse and tampering.
No 2 TVRs are identical and that is part of what makes them special.
peteA said:
The other thing was the often mentioned 'matching numbers'...assume this is reference to chassis, engine, etc numbers....if these are changed 'in the future' will non-matching numbers impact on the value..?
The chances of the factory getting all the numbers matched at time of build were low if not improbable, so in TVR's case this doesn't really matter - its not like a Fezza or Aston where the various identification numbers are inextricably linked together. interesting topic, I agree that the race Sagaris` are more kit car than anything else now, but love to see them on the track, even though the only resemblance to a tvr is its looks, as for the road going cars I think a prospective purchaser is either going to be for an original, as it left the factory type car, or he/she could be a petrol head who loves the look of the car, but can see the possible advantages of the original engine being changed for something more powerful and possibly reliable.
dont know quite where that leaves me though
its not original anymore, but on the other hand in my opinion its more of a TVR now than it was when it left the factory, as it has the AJP8 tvr built engine.
dont know quite where that leaves me though
its not original anymore, but on the other hand in my opinion its more of a TVR now than it was when it left the factory, as it has the AJP8 tvr built engine.Edited by clive f on Thursday 7th January 19:32
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