Discussion
After 18 months of Caterham ownership I'm soon to have a big empty space in the garage and some funds back in the account, which means I'm looking for a new toy over the winter. I've missed the S3 ever since I sold it, so a TVR could be an option.
My requirement have changed a bit since then, however. Basically I'm now looking for something relatively usable in sports car terms. The idea is keep a shed for bad weather and town driving, so it wouldn't be a daily driver as such, but I'd like to use the next toy a lot more than I could use the Seven. That means it must be watertight, it must cruise reasonably quietly and comfrotably on the motor way, it must be fundamentally reliable and it must have a mahoosive boot suitable for carrying a barritone sax case, which is roughly the length and depth (and 2/3rds the width) of a standard suitcase!
The last point is actually quite important. I rarely get a chance to just go out for a blast these days, so it needs to be big enough to accomodate bits for work trips or ferrying the OH's band stuff if it's going to get more use than the Caterham did.
So, what are my options? Budget is nominally £10k.
I figured a Chimaera is the obvious practical-TVR option, particularly having already 'done' the S. However, I wasn't sure even a Chim would have the space I'm looking for; prices seem to have gone up a lot lately so maybe now isn't a good time to buy; I was wondering how much of a step up the running costs would be; and I wondered if however-many footpounds of torque going to big wide tyres might need a bit too much mental recalibration after an ultra-chuckable Caterham and a relaitvely benign S before that?
My requirement have changed a bit since then, however. Basically I'm now looking for something relatively usable in sports car terms. The idea is keep a shed for bad weather and town driving, so it wouldn't be a daily driver as such, but I'd like to use the next toy a lot more than I could use the Seven. That means it must be watertight, it must cruise reasonably quietly and comfrotably on the motor way, it must be fundamentally reliable and it must have a mahoosive boot suitable for carrying a barritone sax case, which is roughly the length and depth (and 2/3rds the width) of a standard suitcase!
The last point is actually quite important. I rarely get a chance to just go out for a blast these days, so it needs to be big enough to accomodate bits for work trips or ferrying the OH's band stuff if it's going to get more use than the Caterham did.
So, what are my options? Budget is nominally £10k.
I figured a Chimaera is the obvious practical-TVR option, particularly having already 'done' the S. However, I wasn't sure even a Chim would have the space I'm looking for; prices seem to have gone up a lot lately so maybe now isn't a good time to buy; I was wondering how much of a step up the running costs would be; and I wondered if however-many footpounds of torque going to big wide tyres might need a bit too much mental recalibration after an ultra-chuckable Caterham and a relaitvely benign S before that?
I reckon a Chimaera would be fine, the boot is really quite a size. As for a step up from an S I'm sure you'd find that easy enough, I imagine lots of owners have gone that route - I know of 1.
A Cerbera would give you a lot of room too, but some of the boot space is lost to allow for the rear 'seats'.
You can make Chimaera's watertight too so it seems a good choice to me. Discount the Griff immediately, apart from having a smaller boot they are far more ugly and much slower - in any colour
A Cerbera would give you a lot of room too, but some of the boot space is lost to allow for the rear 'seats'.
You can make Chimaera's watertight too so it seems a good choice to me. Discount the Griff immediately, apart from having a smaller boot they are far more ugly and much slower - in any colour
.Mark said:
Discount the Griff immediately, apart from having a smaller boot they are far more ugly and much slower - in any colour
Pshaw. He doth protest too much. At the price a Griff or Chimp would fit the bill. Nothing wrong with the S though, although maybe the boot space is a bit limiting? Pretty sure a Griff boot would accommodate your horn but it's easy enough to find out - try it. Both simple and cheap(ish) to maintain and keep going forever. Whatever you decide on, check the chassis thoroughly as well as the usual stuff - can be expensive to sort if badly rusted. If it's to be a keeper then it's money well spent but if it's a bit of fun for a year or two it's unlikely you'll get your money back.
LordGrover said:
.Mark said:
Discount the Griff immediately, apart from having a smaller boot they are far more ugly and much slower - in any colour
Pshaw. He doth protest too much. At the price a Griff or Chimp would fit the bill. Nothing wrong with the S though, although maybe the boot space is a bit limiting?
grahamn said:
Hi Chris, I'd have thought that after you couple of laps in the passenger seat around Brands you would know how chuckable the cerb is, and it has a big boot.
Yep, certainly seemed to work well on the track. A friend suggested a Cerb to me this morning, which is what got me thinking really. I do feel the urge to scratch the coupe itch and doing it with a bonkers 400bhp 2+2 super coupe might just be the way forward. My concerns would be largely financial though - would £10,000 buy me a well setup example that wasn't going to need any further work and how much money would I spend keeping it that way? The last question is partly rhetorical - obviously it all depends on the car - but I seem to remember people suggesting you need about twice the contingency fund to run an AJP engined car than a Rover V8?Also, which do you reckon is better on the motorway? I know that's a slightly odd question for a TVR, but most of the decent drives I do now start with a long slog to escape London before I get to the good bits! I'm looking for something with a twin personality - docile and comfortable with the stereo on one minute, then suitably savage on a track or a decent B-road the next.
Strange question, but are there any local (South Herts/North London) people who'd let me bring the barri case round and try fitting it into their boot?
Edited by Chris71 on Monday 11th October 12:59
The Cerb fills your requirements in pretty much every way as they are an excellent GT, and the boot is bigger than the Chimera's due to the smaller exhaust can cutouts in the floor
but to find one for 10K that won't need regular cash injections isn't going to happen as even when they're fit you have to bear in mind that a lot more of the car is bespoke - AP discs and calipers for one - £100 / brake disc?
They need more attention / time spending on them than the Griffmera's and have the potential for bigger bills
but then it will out accelerate nearly everythign else on the road and with the right shocks / set-up handle very well - dare I say it better than a Griffmera can
So unless you really want one I'd say get a Chimera instead
but to find one for 10K that won't need regular cash injections isn't going to happen as even when they're fit you have to bear in mind that a lot more of the car is bespoke - AP discs and calipers for one - £100 / brake disc?
They need more attention / time spending on them than the Griffmera's and have the potential for bigger bills
but then it will out accelerate nearly everythign else on the road and with the right shocks / set-up handle very well - dare I say it better than a Griffmera can
So unless you really want one I'd say get a Chimera instead
350Matt said:
The Cerb fills your requirements in pretty much every way as they are an excellent GT, and the boot is bigger than the Chimera's due to the smaller exhaust can cutouts in the floor
It may be deeper top to bottom perhaps but not back to front as it were.350Matt said:
but to find one for 10K that won't need regular cash injections isn't going to happen as even when they're fit you have to bear in mind that a lot more of the car is bespoke - AP discs and calipers for one - £100 / brake disc?
They need more attention / time spending on them than the Griffmera's and have the potential for bigger bills
but then it will out accelerate nearly everythign else on the road and with the right shocks / set-up handle very well - dare I say it better than a Griffmera can
Spot on.They need more attention / time spending on them than the Griffmera's and have the potential for bigger bills
but then it will out accelerate nearly everythign else on the road and with the right shocks / set-up handle very well - dare I say it better than a Griffmera can
350Matt said:
So unless you really want one I'd say get a Chimera instead
Oggs said:
Chris when mine goes up for sale it would be around £6k
When's that likely to be Oggs? I'm not sure I've seen it myself, but I've heard good things from people who've ridden in your car, so £6k sounds like a bit of a bargain. I thought decent Chims were quite a lot more than that these days.Part of what puts me off the Chimaera is the way prices seem to have risen lately. I'm sure they're about £2,000 more than they were like-for-like last winter? Maybe the prices are still at summer levels? Curiously, the Griffs seem to have stayed about the same or even gone down a little. While it may be silly to complain about the purchase price of something that you're going to spend thousands maintaining I'd rather the money went towards running/maintaining the car than covering a change in value if they go back down.
Out of interest, has anyone here run a Lotus Excel, a BMW Z3M Coupe or a Porsche 968? I'd be extremely interested to hear how they compared to any given TVR in maintenance costs as those are the other main contenders.
Chris71 said:
Oggs said:
Chris when mine goes up for sale it would be around £6k
When's that likely to be Oggs? I'm not sure I've seen it myself, but I've heard good things from people who've ridden in your car, so £6k sounds like a bit of a bargain. I thought decent Chims were quite a lot more than that these days.
I will drop you a mail later as I'm off out to the ACE.
Cheers
pwd95 said:
I actually saw the advert yesterday, thought "I recognise that road", but didn't notice the name! You must go through cars almost as quickly as I do. I think a Griffmaera or Cerb appeals more than a Wedge on the whole, but I would make an exception for a really smart 350i FHC.
Hmm, that said, I am going to be in your neck of the woods in a couple of weeks (staying in Brecon) so maybe I should come and say hi!
Mr MoJo said:
When are you heading to Gods playground Chris. If I'm not working I may be able to bring the Griff up for you to try for size
I'll be in Brecon a week on Tuesday and possibly some of the following morning. I really don't have that much time to play, but if you and Wyn just happened to be passing by coincidence... 
I've had a Cerb for nearly 2 years and used to have a 968 CS. The Cerb is, in short, an animal. I've driven RV8 powered cars and they offer none of the savage performance of the AJP, quick, torquey and easy to exploit performance, but not "rip your head off and puke up the half digested bits" mad.
I've always had jobs to do on the Cerb, not always urgent ones (though the engine rebuild was
) and I've also not been able to keep my hands off it in terms of wanting to constantly tinker. I use mine as a weekend car and find it fits the bill perfectly, mad when you want it to be, yet still a good long distance car if you have to go somewhere. I love it an it's a keeper
By comparison the 968 CS felt like a far more resolved, better built car which genuinely gave the impression that nothing would ever go wrong (and it didn't even though it was 5 years older and had done twice the miles of the Cerb). It handled absolutely fantastically and was so easy to exploit. With 255 bhp it wasn't mad quick but just felt beautifully balanced and could cover ground far more effectively than the Cerb. That said, it was nowhere near the "event" that the Cerb was, and in many ways it felt too good to use for knocking around every day yet not special enough to leave in the garage for weekends. As a tool it was far superior to the Cerb in virtually every way. In my more ambitious moments I often wonder what a 968 with an AJP lump would be like...
I'd really look at a CS or a Sport if I were in your position; virtually bomb proof construction, nearly 30mpg on a run and handling that will keep you entertained for years. They are also starting to appreciate so should be a safe place for your money.
I've always had jobs to do on the Cerb, not always urgent ones (though the engine rebuild was) and I've also not been able to keep my hands off it in terms of wanting to constantly tinker. I use mine as a weekend car and find it fits the bill perfectly, mad when you want it to be, yet still a good long distance car if you have to go somewhere. I love it an it's a keeperBy comparison the 968 CS felt like a far more resolved, better built car which genuinely gave the impression that nothing would ever go wrong (and it didn't even though it was 5 years older and had done twice the miles of the Cerb). It handled absolutely fantastically and was so easy to exploit. With 255 bhp it wasn't mad quick but just felt beautifully balanced and could cover ground far more effectively than the Cerb. That said, it was nowhere near the "event" that the Cerb was, and in many ways it felt too good to use for knocking around every day yet not special enough to leave in the garage for weekends. As a tool it was far superior to the Cerb in virtually every way. In my more ambitious moments I often wonder what a 968 with an AJP lump would be like...
I'd really look at a CS or a Sport if I were in your position; virtually bomb proof construction, nearly 30mpg on a run and handling that will keep you entertained for years. They are also starting to appreciate so should be a safe place for your money.
itiejim said:
I've had a Cerb for nearly 2 years and used to have a 968 CS. The Cerb is, in short, an animal. I've driven RV8 powered cars and they offer none of the savage performance of the AJP, quick, torquey and easy to exploit performance, but not "rip your head off and puke up the half digested bits" mad. I've always had jobs to do on the Cerb, not always urgent ones (though the engine rebuild was) and I've also not been able to keep my hands off it in terms of wanting to constantly tinker. I use mine as a weekend car and find it fits the bill perfectly, mad when you want it to be, yet still a good long distance car if you have to go somewhere. I love it an it's a keeper
By comparison the 968 CS felt like a far more resolved, better built car which genuinely gave the impression that nothing would ever go wrong (and it didn't even though it was 5 years older and had done twice the miles of the Cerb). It handled absolutely fantastically and was so easy to exploit. With 255 bhp it wasn't mad quick but just felt beautifully balanced and could cover ground far more effectively than the Cerb. That said, it was nowhere near the "event" that the Cerb was, and in many ways it felt too good to use for knocking around every day yet not special enough to leave in the garage for weekends. As a tool it was far superior to the Cerb in virtually every way. In my more ambitious moments I often wonder what a 968 with an AJP lump would be like...
I'd really look at a CS or a Sport if I were in your position; virtually bomb proof construction, nearly 30mpg on a run and handling that will keep you entertained for years. They are also starting to appreciate so should be a safe place for your money.
How did the maintenance costs compare? I've always had jobs to do on the Cerb, not always urgent ones (though the engine rebuild was) and I've also not been able to keep my hands off it in terms of wanting to constantly tinker. I use mine as a weekend car and find it fits the bill perfectly, mad when you want it to be, yet still a good long distance car if you have to go somewhere. I love it an it's a keeperBy comparison the 968 CS felt like a far more resolved, better built car which genuinely gave the impression that nothing would ever go wrong (and it didn't even though it was 5 years older and had done twice the miles of the Cerb). It handled absolutely fantastically and was so easy to exploit. With 255 bhp it wasn't mad quick but just felt beautifully balanced and could cover ground far more effectively than the Cerb. That said, it was nowhere near the "event" that the Cerb was, and in many ways it felt too good to use for knocking around every day yet not special enough to leave in the garage for weekends. As a tool it was far superior to the Cerb in virtually every way. In my more ambitious moments I often wonder what a 968 with an AJP lump would be like...
I'd really look at a CS or a Sport if I were in your position; virtually bomb proof construction, nearly 30mpg on a run and handling that will keep you entertained for years. They are also starting to appreciate so should be a safe place for your money.
Although I plan to use it relatively regularly the new toy will still be just that - a 2nd car for high days and holidays... Having driven 944s and 968s in the past (and owned a 924S) I just have a nagging doubt as to whether the Porsche would feel special enough to leave in the garage for those occasions. That's why an Excel appeals so much - comparitively cheap bits, said to be reliable, rust-proof and practical, but also has the British handmade thing which the Porsche so utterly lacks. Even the 911s of that era feel a bit sanitised to me.
+1,000 on the AJP-engined 968 comment by the way - I'd love a combination of Porsche sensibleness (big boot etc) with a dose of Blackpool insanity. Just need to transplant the Cerb interior in there too and it'd be perfection.
The 968 never went wrong, so it cost me far less in both time and money. However, as you point out, the specialness is not there, though the CS does make up for that to a degree with the bucket seats, stripped out interior etc. If you were going to use it whenever you could then I'm sure it'd be great, I'm sure that a 968 would put up with virtually whatever use you put it to. No doubt about it, the 968 was a car I really admired, whereas I love the Cerb.
The key issues with them are wear to the cam drive gears, often caused by poor chain tensioning which can be expensive to sort out, and sticky brakes caused by corrosion on the alloy callipers - less of a problem to resolve than many make out.
I'll go back and hide under my secretly Porsche admiring rock now
The key issues with them are wear to the cam drive gears, often caused by poor chain tensioning which can be expensive to sort out, and sticky brakes caused by corrosion on the alloy callipers - less of a problem to resolve than many make out.
I'll go back and hide under my secretly Porsche admiring rock now
Mr MoJo said:
Wyn, selling again ? What's next pal ? I noticed a lovely black wedge for sale but didnt realise it was yours.
... What next? Got some options but I do have this Westfield Seight itch that'll need a good old scratching sometime.
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