Improve front axle feedback and turn in
Discussion
For the knowledable amongst you all, what is the best way to improve front axle feedback/turn in?
My car is setup really well except the front axle and its already modified its nearly perfect for me, no im not interested in buying a different car, i just want to improve what i have.
Car is an M140i, front end is pretty numb, currently runs approx 1 degree negative camber due to mild lowering, also running 245 width tyres at the front.
From what ive read a combination of some increased negative camber (camber plates - street so polyurethane and not as harsh) and solid bushings in the lower control arms should improve feedback and positive turn in?
My car is setup really well except the front axle and its already modified its nearly perfect for me, no im not interested in buying a different car, i just want to improve what i have.
Car is an M140i, front end is pretty numb, currently runs approx 1 degree negative camber due to mild lowering, also running 245 width tyres at the front.
From what ive read a combination of some increased negative camber (camber plates - street so polyurethane and not as harsh) and solid bushings in the lower control arms should improve feedback and positive turn in?
You're limited by the underlying platform, the steering gear, and of course the el-cheapo front suspension setup, I think you'll see very incremental gains with what you propose that won't be anywhere near worth the drawbacks.
In before someone else says it:
Next time if you want a sports car don't start with a tarted up budget car, you can make quite nice leather effect purses out of sows ears but a silk purse is impossible.
In before someone else says it:
Next time if you want a sports car don't start with a tarted up budget car, you can make quite nice leather effect purses out of sows ears but a silk purse is impossible.
Edited by GeniusOfLove on Friday 19th May 11:43
Negative camber will increase front-end grip at speed but not really turn-in sharpness. If you want to sharpen turn-in you probably want to add a bit of toe-out at the front although it will hurt your fuel economy and make the car feel less stable at speed in a straight line (plus obviously increase tyre wear a bit).
The other thing which can make a big difference is model of tyre. As well as different tyres offering different levels of grip in different circumstances, they also offer different amounts of side-wall flex which directly effects both handling sharpness and ride quality.
Bushes do have an effect, but OEM bushes tend to be pretty well judge, stiffening them up risks making the car very harsh for minimal improvements in handling.
The other thing which can make a big difference is model of tyre. As well as different tyres offering different levels of grip in different circumstances, they also offer different amounts of side-wall flex which directly effects both handling sharpness and ride quality.
Bushes do have an effect, but OEM bushes tend to be pretty well judge, stiffening them up risks making the car very harsh for minimal improvements in handling.
Edited by kambites on Friday 19th May 11:46
GeniusOfLove said:
You're limited by the underlying platform, the steering gear, and of course the el-cheapo front suspension setup, I think you'll see very incremental gains with what you propose that won't be anywhere near worth the drawbacks.
In before someone else says it:
Next time if you want a sports car don't start with a tarted up budget car, you can make quite nice leather effect purses out of sows ears but a silk purse is impossible.
Lol typical expected pistonheads response 🙄In before someone else says it:
Next time if you want a sports car don't start with a tarted up budget car, you can make quite nice leather effect purses out of sows ears but a silk purse is impossible.
Edited by GeniusOfLove on Friday 19th May 11:43
inline6bmwfan said:
Lol typical expected pistonheads response ??
There is an element of truth to it though, strut based setups are fundamentally limited in how they control geometry. Porsche use some sort of magic to do an astonishing job of mitigating it, but on anything else struts are just a bit rubbish. The main things really are going to be the tyres themselves, the front toe settings, and wheel offset to some degree.
You can maybe play a little bit with the mechanical trail/castor which might help but you're rather limited with what you could change there, bar offset bushes and tyre height - and E-PAS is going to filter some out no matter what.
I don't think it's really a McPherson struts issue either, some of the cars with the best feedback were struts on hatches.
You can maybe play a little bit with the mechanical trail/castor which might help but you're rather limited with what you could change there, bar offset bushes and tyre height - and E-PAS is going to filter some out no matter what.
I don't think it's really a McPherson struts issue either, some of the cars with the best feedback were struts on hatches.
PhillipM said:
I don't think it's really a McPherson struts issue either, some of the cars with the best feedback were struts on hatches.
Skinny tyres with lots of flex in the sidewalls. There were better cars at the time with real front suspension, the old shopping trolley hatches were great for feel relative to what came after because you get so little feel from modern tyres with their small and very stiff sidewalls.bumskins said:
inline6bmwfan said:
Lol typical expected pistonheads response ??
Maybe start with a proper car instead of a RWD handbag with EPAS then...?For the record im not expecting it to turn into a lotus elise but ive driven many other normal cars which inspired more front end confidence.
kambites said:
If you want to sharpen turn-in you probably want to add a bit of toe-out at the front although it will hurt your fuel economy and make the car feel less stable at speed in a straight line (plus obviously increase tyre wear a bit).
Very much the bit in bold: toe out would work, but it will make the car feel utterly f
king horrible for road use.It's pretty much standard practice for hillclimb cars, and I've run a number of cars set up like that on the road... it's all very well having something like a Locaterfield (that gets used mainly on B-roads and below 90mph) that darts about all over the place, but I wouldn't do it to a 150mph BMW hatchback.
Equus said:
kambites said:
If you want to sharpen turn-in you probably want to add a bit of toe-out at the front although it will hurt your fuel economy and make the car feel less stable at speed in a straight line (plus obviously increase tyre wear a bit).
Very much the bit in bold: toe out would work, but it will make the car feel utterly fking horrible for road use.And nobody has mentioned the most glaringly obvious.....
Which tyres ?
tyres will have as big an impact as geometry, wheels, whatever. Some are good, some are crap, most are very user dependent.
And quite interesting, as will wheel width vs tyre.
Recent test with regards to widths
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MDq23scaWw&t=...
Which tyres ?
tyres will have as big an impact as geometry, wheels, whatever. Some are good, some are crap, most are very user dependent.
And quite interesting, as will wheel width vs tyre.
Recent test with regards to widths
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MDq23scaWw&t=...
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