Aftermarket Suspension - good or bad?
Discussion
I am posting this on behalf of a friend who is considering buying a Nissan 200SX with a view to modifying the car. One of the first things that comes to mind with the modifications is different suspension, as the current suspension is designed to be a happy medium to suit grannies and grandads as much as guys like us after a good driving experience. I realise that car companies spend weeks, if not months, honing the suspension to perfection, fiddling with damper valving, spring rates, changing camber, castor, king pin inclination, toe in, toe out etc etc; so is replacing the suspension with aftermarket suspension a complete no-no, or can it actually improve things? It's rather scary when a lot of suspension is advertised as 'lowering the car to give a more sporty appearance'!!!
I'm interesting in people's theoretical viewpoints, as well as their real world experiences.
I'm interesting in people's theoretical viewpoints, as well as their real world experiences.
RobM77 said:
...I'm interesting in people's theoretical viewpoints...
Here's mine then... The car companies spend millions designing suspension and then often use consultancies like Lotus to do the final tweakings! Unless you've got some serious experience and/or educaton on the subject you are going to be in the hands of whoever designes the bolt on goody! Just changing wheels can create major issues which will upset the handling of the vehicle.
If you get on the track and uncover some bad handling characteristics then you could attempt modifications to adress these and see how it affects lap times.
leorest said:
RobM77 said:
...I'm interesting in people's theoretical viewpoints...
Here's mine then... The car companies spend millions designing suspension and then often use consultancies like Lotus to do the final tweakings! Unless you've got some serious experience and/or educaton on the subject you are going to be in the hands of whoever designes the bolt on goody! Just changing wheels can create major issues which will upset the handling of the vehicle.
If you get on the track and uncover some bad handling characteristics then you could attempt modifications to adress these and see how it affects lap times.
These are exactly my thoughts. I, and many others, setup suspension on my race car to go fastest and handle the best on a smooth flat track, but road cars are a totally different and more complicated kettle of fish!
Alex@POD said:
On a car like a 200sx, i'd expect the suspension to be pretty good as standard. On a family car though, I can't see too much harm in fitting sportier suspension if handling is more important to you than comfort...
I test drove a 2000 model 200SX a while back and found that it was beautifully balanced, but it just felt a bit coupe-ish for me. Not much excitement. Mind you, I'm sure if I pused it I'd discover a whole new car. Like a BMW - comfy, bt if you take one round a track you realise all the work they do on the suspension!
I agree on the amounts that are spent by major manufacturers optimising suspension setups but I also agree that they are always a compromise that might not suit all tastes. My biggest fear in changing things is with the more complex modern cars that have ABS and electronic stability control systems. These will have been fine-tuned to work well with the car's correct setup. Changing anything (lowering it, stiffer springs/ dampers / anti-roll bars etc) will make the car behave differently to how the onboard computers expect it to. This might make things better, not change them at all, or it might make things a lot worse! I think it's worth going to a company with a good reputation for modifying THAT PARTICULAR CAR and (ideally) check that their kit is (say) TUV approved. If it is, it will probably have at least been put through the same tests as the manufacturer was obliged to put the car through when it was type approved (but of course, the manufacturer might have gone further than the bare legal minimum)!
A good idea is often to optimise what is there already.
If you have an early 200SX and later ones came with upgraded shocks and springs or whatever, then fit them. Chances are they work with the cars setup, and later revisions were made for good reasons!
I've seen kits for things like Evo VII's for £800 an wonder how they manage that. Good dampers cost a fair bit to start with, as do springs. Lets say £200 to manufacture, markup, then you have maybe £400 left. Look at charge out rates for most companies. Look how much the Clio Trophy kit costs!
Anyone testing an Evo VIII for upgraded suspension would need at least 10,000 miles of varied track and road use, test drivers with many years experience. I honestly can't see these kits being viable wrt to testing on a large scale, probably just say "10% stiffer and lower, that'll be better. Just make sure it drives ok, yep, that'll do."
The manufacturer sells thousands of units, one with each car basically, so they can invest say £10 million in just the damper tuning probably. How could any aftermarket ever put that much effort into a kit and get anything better.
Yes there are compromises, but throw alot of money at something and you find the best compromise. You might add 10% more grip/wheel control with aftermarket dampers but at a cost of 30% worse ride comfort or vibration intrusion from uprated bushes, or very poor wheel control on very rough roads, or excessive bump stop impacts due to lowering.
If your going to the track, and your car wasn't designed with it in mind, then go for a fully adjustable setup, but if you just want better road ability, chances are you'll do no better yourself than the OEM did, and just introduce compromise for no real benefit at all.
I await the first aftermarket Clio Trophy suspension kit. I think the fact most aftermarkets are there to appeal to people with no clue in the first place says it all. 30mm lower. And? Spring rate? Damper rates/dyno plots? It's all just crap in my view, unless it's properly fully adjustable and you are testing for a particular use you won't do better than a good OE setup for all round use!
Dave
If you have an early 200SX and later ones came with upgraded shocks and springs or whatever, then fit them. Chances are they work with the cars setup, and later revisions were made for good reasons!
I've seen kits for things like Evo VII's for £800 an wonder how they manage that. Good dampers cost a fair bit to start with, as do springs. Lets say £200 to manufacture, markup, then you have maybe £400 left. Look at charge out rates for most companies. Look how much the Clio Trophy kit costs!
Anyone testing an Evo VIII for upgraded suspension would need at least 10,000 miles of varied track and road use, test drivers with many years experience. I honestly can't see these kits being viable wrt to testing on a large scale, probably just say "10% stiffer and lower, that'll be better. Just make sure it drives ok, yep, that'll do."
The manufacturer sells thousands of units, one with each car basically, so they can invest say £10 million in just the damper tuning probably. How could any aftermarket ever put that much effort into a kit and get anything better.
Yes there are compromises, but throw alot of money at something and you find the best compromise. You might add 10% more grip/wheel control with aftermarket dampers but at a cost of 30% worse ride comfort or vibration intrusion from uprated bushes, or very poor wheel control on very rough roads, or excessive bump stop impacts due to lowering.
If your going to the track, and your car wasn't designed with it in mind, then go for a fully adjustable setup, but if you just want better road ability, chances are you'll do no better yourself than the OEM did, and just introduce compromise for no real benefit at all.
I await the first aftermarket Clio Trophy suspension kit. I think the fact most aftermarkets are there to appeal to people with no clue in the first place says it all. 30mm lower. And? Spring rate? Damper rates/dyno plots? It's all just crap in my view, unless it's properly fully adjustable and you are testing for a particular use you won't do better than a good OE setup for all round use!
Dave
Thanks to everyone for their feedback. To be honest, this kind of re-affirms what I've always thought. For instance, certain cars on the market that I shan't mention handle really badly - they can't cope with bumps, the geometry feels all wrong etc etc. Some cars, however, handle like a dream - i.e. most Lotus cars. Having chatted to a few ride and handling engineers I can understand why - it is purely development time. Lotus put a huge amount of effort into developing suspension, but other car companies that I shan't mention don't tend to. Most aftermarket kits are bound to fall into this latter bracket. In the past I've driven cars with dampers that are slightly worn - so slightly that the garage swears blind they're fine - even after analysis on a testing machine. Those cars have handled noticeably differently to a car that is in good health. Ergo, given the obvious sensitivity of cars to suspension changes I too would be inclined to stick with the standard settings and standard components. The shame of it is that most cars, 200SX included, are a compromise for grannies, fat people etc. It's a shame Lotus would charge a small fortune to do an Exige makeover on the 200SX suspension!
RobM77 said:
In the past I've driven cars with dampers that are slightly worn - so slightly that the garage swears blind they're fine - even after analysis on a testing machine. Those cars have handled noticeably differently to a car that is in good health.
Yep, my car has very slightly leaky front dampers, passed the MOT fine but I know that it's time for new ones. 7 years and 80k miles on UK roads says it all really
I bet afterwards the change will be a revelation, and is often overlooked when people upgrade and then say their car is "better than standard". Chances are they upgraded from worn crap standard to new uprated. Hardly fair.
RobM77 said:
It's a shame Lotus would charge a small fortune to do an Exige makeover on the 200SX suspension!
I often think that too. How much did that Lotus tuned Lada cost in real money? £100k?
Even if you were to make 1000 kits of suspension for 200SX owners it'd be *maybe* £1000 per kit before you spec the dampers and build costs etc!
And then you look at aftermarket kits for £500
Dave
Rob really suprised you have this viewpoint give what you drive/have driven, with very few exceptions I couldnt be more opposed to it.
OE is about compramise in many forms- even Lotus, when you go aftermarket you can choose where you want to go & what you want to achive & wher that compramise- & there has to be one, is to be, weather its cost, b road ride, track ride, dry track/wet track, 5 people in & luggage, solo or 2 up, sticky rubber or normal rubber etc etc etc.
OE is about compramise in many forms- even Lotus, when you go aftermarket you can choose where you want to go & what you want to achive & wher that compramise- & there has to be one, is to be, weather its cost, b road ride, track ride, dry track/wet track, 5 people in & luggage, solo or 2 up, sticky rubber or normal rubber etc etc etc.
Edited by iguana on Wednesday 20th September 21:32
iguana said:
Rob really suprised you have this viewpoint give what you drive/have driven, with very few exceptions I couldnt be more opposed to it.
OE is about compramise in many forms- even Lotus, when you go aftermarket you can choose where you want to go & what you want to achive & where that compramise- & there has to be one, is to be, cost, b road ride, track ride, dry track/wet track, 5 people in & luggage, solo or 2 up, sticky rubber or normal rubber etc etc etc.
OE is about compramise in many forms- even Lotus, when you go aftermarket you can choose where you want to go & what you want to achive & where that compramise- & there has to be one, is to be, cost, b road ride, track ride, dry track/wet track, 5 people in & luggage, solo or 2 up, sticky rubber or normal rubber etc etc etc.
I can easily make 0.1G difference in cornering by twiddling my dampers, spring rates and ride height on my race car according to my Astratech data logging.
Yes, aftermarket suspension can make a difference.
Of whether it is making an improvement or not depends on a whole bunch of stuff.
Another example is a standard Corolla GT will pull around 0.9G on a skid pan when new. A modified one will pull 1-1.1G.
Of course test a twenty year old one now that is in dire need of new springs, dampers, bushes, tyres etc then yes, it would pull considerably less.
Yes, aftermarket suspension can make a difference.
Of whether it is making an improvement or not depends on a whole bunch of stuff.
Another example is a standard Corolla GT will pull around 0.9G on a skid pan when new. A modified one will pull 1-1.1G.
Of course test a twenty year old one now that is in dire need of new springs, dampers, bushes, tyres etc then yes, it would pull considerably less.
But lateral g's are a function of so many factors...
OE suspension is a compromise for track work I agree.
So if your going for track work get a FULLY adjustable spring/damper setup, then work at what you want.
The other kits are just complete twaddle in my view. HOW can an aftermarket tuner setup anything with such a small budget? They don't even give spring rate's, lengths, before/after damper dyno's, nothing.
To say you can choose what your aftermarket kit is like is a bit silly when all they tell you is 10% stiffer and 20mm lower, with uprated dampers. Well, are the dampers rated for the new wheel rate? Digressive, stiffer in low-shaft speeds or across the range?
An OEM *will* have specced every single last bit of the damper rate, and the spring rates, to work in conjuction with the geometry changes and bushings, and alignments.
I say either OEM or very close to it, or complete adjustable aftermarket!
Dave
OE suspension is a compromise for track work I agree.
So if your going for track work get a FULLY adjustable spring/damper setup, then work at what you want.
The other kits are just complete twaddle in my view. HOW can an aftermarket tuner setup anything with such a small budget? They don't even give spring rate's, lengths, before/after damper dyno's, nothing.
To say you can choose what your aftermarket kit is like is a bit silly when all they tell you is 10% stiffer and 20mm lower, with uprated dampers. Well, are the dampers rated for the new wheel rate? Digressive, stiffer in low-shaft speeds or across the range?
An OEM *will* have specced every single last bit of the damper rate, and the spring rates, to work in conjuction with the geometry changes and bushings, and alignments.
I say either OEM or very close to it, or complete adjustable aftermarket!
Dave
iguana said:
Rob really suprised you have this viewpoint give what you drive/have driven, with very few exceptions I couldnt be more opposed to it.
OE is about compramise in many forms- even Lotus, when you go aftermarket you can choose where you want to go & what you want to achive & wher that compramise- & there has to be one, is to be, weather its cost, b road ride, track ride, dry track/wet track, 5 people in & luggage, solo or 2 up, sticky rubber or normal rubber etc etc etc.
OE is about compramise in many forms- even Lotus, when you go aftermarket you can choose where you want to go & what you want to achive & wher that compramise- & there has to be one, is to be, weather its cost, b road ride, track ride, dry track/wet track, 5 people in & luggage, solo or 2 up, sticky rubber or normal rubber etc etc etc.
Edited by iguana on Wednesday 20th September 21:32
I completely understand what you're saying, but even a dedicated setup needs thousands of miles and head scratching to set it up properly for the car. My racing Metro took about two or three years of testing, deep thought and advice to get to the point where it is now (what I would term almost ideal handling for qualifying and racing), and racing is actually by far the easiest environment to set up for (smooth tracks, not much suspension movement, pretty consistent behavious from the car and track). I just can't imagine an aftermarket company having the same depth of knowledge as a large car company when it comes to setting a car up for the road. If someone could prove to me that aftermarket suspension companies spend weeks on one car, tweaking the settings for British B roads, French A roads, race tracks, town centres, British C roads, motorways, etc etc etc; then I will change my opinion. I don't really know what they do of course, thus this thread, but my inkling is that they don't
iguana said:
when you go aftermarket you can choose where you want to go & what you want to achive
This is the bit that gets me.
The only aftermarket kit that will offer this is a fully adjustable spring and damper kit, that will likely cost £££, and you'll need to be clued up to get it anywhere near where the OEM was before you start to make meaningful changes!
Any kit that is sold as "tuned" or "matched" or whatever, is just their interpretation. I've never seen anything more than "x% stiffer" or "x mm lower" when looking at these kits, even for things like Porsche 911's!
How can "you can choose where you want to go & what you want to achive" when you have no clue what you are buying?
Go read some threads on Eng Tips and you soon start to realise the hard work the OEM's go to, and the time spent. If aftermarket kits actually had time and money put into them they'd have to sell 100,000's of units to cost what they do. And I just don't think they do sell that many units!
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Thursday 21st September 15:07
One word you need to know and thats Tein, excellent bits for rice rockets, fitted it to a few cars of japaneese origin, and they all handled better. If you go for the top end Tein kit you can even have a nice box of tricks in your car that allows to adjust the damping from the cabin. Stiffer poundage springs as well help the handling characteristics, as well as better damping control.
Had Spax & Koni on various cars ( one with newish standard shocks ) in the past ....and always had a good handling improvement over standard.
Sure , the ride wasn't as 'soft' as 'OE ' shocks, but as we've covered, the standard shocks are a compromise to try to please all drivers..grannies included!
Sure , the ride wasn't as 'soft' as 'OE ' shocks, but as we've covered, the standard shocks are a compromise to try to please all drivers..grannies included!
BadgerBenji said:
One word you need to know and thats Tein, excellent bits for rice rockets, fitted it to a few cars of japaneese origin, and they all handled better. If you go for the top end Tein kit you can even have a nice box of tricks in your car that allows to adjust the damping from the cabin. Stiffer poundage springs as well help the handling characteristics, as well as better damping control.
I agree in principal (I've got Tein on my RX-7) but.... you need to be pretty careful not to upset the OEM balance, and end up with something which pulls 1g on smooth corners, but which hops skips and jumps out of control on bumpy UK roads
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