A piller replacing, restorers?
Discussion
Sorry this is more to proove a point than anything else.
Currently stripping down my brothers spitfire 1500, now one side is stripped, the A piller and windscreen area has a mild corrosion, it needs replacing, no doubt the otherside will be the same, so it will be a complete new windowframe cut of and join just above the A pillers, around the scuttle panel area.
Now here is what I want to know, which is the correct way to do this
Old mans way-
Take windscreen out, cut off the window frame and into the A piller to get rid of the rust, and weld a new one on....Probably thinkin yeah nothing wrong with that
My way
Take out dash, then just below where we cut the window frame off, weld a bar from side to keep the car body in that position, makes lining up the frame easier and will stop the body from "collapsing"
Granted he may have done several Triumph restorations in his life, but he is adament that the body will stay sqaure whilst its missing the the windscreen frame, and wont "move" with it cut out
Now, I know that when ever you do major bodywork like this, you always strengthen the shell with bars. He also went on about how the body and chassis is seperate, and the only way a car would bow in, was if the chassis was rotten...
Yet it has a seperate chassis, so even if the chassis was rotten, the sills, the A+B, the front and rear bulkheads would still keep the body in line, and the chassis could crumble away
am I right?
Currently stripping down my brothers spitfire 1500, now one side is stripped, the A piller and windscreen area has a mild corrosion, it needs replacing, no doubt the otherside will be the same, so it will be a complete new windowframe cut of and join just above the A pillers, around the scuttle panel area.
Now here is what I want to know, which is the correct way to do this
Old mans way-
Take windscreen out, cut off the window frame and into the A piller to get rid of the rust, and weld a new one on....Probably thinkin yeah nothing wrong with that
My way
Take out dash, then just below where we cut the window frame off, weld a bar from side to keep the car body in that position, makes lining up the frame easier and will stop the body from "collapsing"
Granted he may have done several Triumph restorations in his life, but he is adament that the body will stay sqaure whilst its missing the the windscreen frame, and wont "move" with it cut out
Now, I know that when ever you do major bodywork like this, you always strengthen the shell with bars. He also went on about how the body and chassis is seperate, and the only way a car would bow in, was if the chassis was rotten...
Yet it has a seperate chassis, so even if the chassis was rotten, the sills, the A+B, the front and rear bulkheads would still keep the body in line, and the chassis could crumble away
am I right?
Posting pics of exactly what area you intend to remove would help.
In my experience (& I've done the odd Triumph over the years) if the frame is that bad that it requires total removal of one section then the bodyshell will have other more pressing structural issues. (Not the case with the GT6 - the pillers always rust out first due to roof design)
As regards bracing, you don't take any chances at all, yes it is a separate chassis car, but if you want to able to close/open the doors with the windows up after you've done the job, then brace it!
In answer to your direct question about the body collapsing - no it won't even with the complete screen surround removed, but you may get some more flex.
In my experience (& I've done the odd Triumph over the years) if the frame is that bad that it requires total removal of one section then the bodyshell will have other more pressing structural issues. (Not the case with the GT6 - the pillers always rust out first due to roof design)
As regards bracing, you don't take any chances at all, yes it is a separate chassis car, but if you want to able to close/open the doors with the windows up after you've done the job, then brace it!
In answer to your direct question about the body collapsing - no it won't even with the complete screen surround removed, but you may get some more flex.
Edited by alsaautomotive on Thursday 23 April 07:34
I don't think the body will flex at all with the widscreen pillars cut off where you say (if I can imagine it right). Surely the windscreen surround is mildy straightening the car across the WIDTH of the body and yet you're worried about the doors sagging ... which is along the LENGTH of the body.
??
Where is the body/chassis? On wheels, on axle stands? Maybe support the chassis AND the body underneath ... (in the middle , between the doors)
??
Where is the body/chassis? On wheels, on axle stands? Maybe support the chassis AND the body underneath ... (in the middle , between the doors)
pits said:
Now, I know that when ever you do major bodywork like this, you always strengthen the shell with bars. He also went on about how the body and chassis is seperate, and the only way a car would bow in, was if the chassis was rotten...
He has a point - but depends whether the chassis can be supported. So he is saying if the FLOORS were rotten, the solid chassis would still hold it together?Edited by MikeyT on Thursday 23 April 08:53
No what he is saying is, the only way for the car to "collapse" is if the chassis was rotten, which yes it would to a point, but the sills and the tunnel and the A+B pillers will still keep the body straight.
What I am saying is that, the sills are rotten and full of filler, you take out a structural component like the top of the A piller and window frame it will flex and bow in slightly, regardless of the chassis being rotten, as its a seperate chassis and body.
Blue line is where I would be cutting it off
Black line is what is going to be cut off, ie Windscreen surround and scuttle panel, its gone on the one side, it will probably be a t
t to line up and just replace that section of the A piller, windscreen piller and scuttle panel, might aswell just get a whole new panel, and start a fresh, theres a lot of filler in the car, and it wasnt restored that well originally
Red line is where I propose to run just a strengthning bar, just to tie the body work together
My concern is, yes the body might flex, it might not be by much, but if the car is held in that position then fitting a new windscreen area and scuttle panel should just be a case of plonk it on and weld it down, well a bit more than just that
His way of doing it would be to just cut it off and replace, now if the body flexed in or out just a fraction, then that will make lining it all up again just an absoulete arse
I can see the issue he has with tieing the body in place to stop that, because a couple of mm either way, could cause the following problems
Rover panel gaps on the doors and bonnet
Windscreen not fitting (that would be very unlikely though)
Roof not lining up
What I am saying is that, the sills are rotten and full of filler, you take out a structural component like the top of the A piller and window frame it will flex and bow in slightly, regardless of the chassis being rotten, as its a seperate chassis and body.
Blue line is where I would be cutting it off
Black line is what is going to be cut off, ie Windscreen surround and scuttle panel, its gone on the one side, it will probably be a t
t to line up and just replace that section of the A piller, windscreen piller and scuttle panel, might aswell just get a whole new panel, and start a fresh, theres a lot of filler in the car, and it wasnt restored that well originallyRed line is where I propose to run just a strengthning bar, just to tie the body work together
My concern is, yes the body might flex, it might not be by much, but if the car is held in that position then fitting a new windscreen area and scuttle panel should just be a case of plonk it on and weld it down, well a bit more than just that
His way of doing it would be to just cut it off and replace, now if the body flexed in or out just a fraction, then that will make lining it all up again just an absoulete arse
I can see the issue he has with tieing the body in place to stop that, because a couple of mm either way, could cause the following problems
Rover panel gaps on the doors and bonnet
Windscreen not fitting (that would be very unlikely though)
Roof not lining up
Ah, as it's the scuttle panel as well that's being removed then there is a distinct possibility that the front assembly (front bulkhead inc the remainder of the A posts basically) will move forward & down in a clockwork motion.
On the subject of it being on a separate chassis - if the sill structure is rotten then irrespective of it being bolted to the chassis it can very easily banana - they should be fitted with aluminium body shims & a hessian type insulator where they are bolted body to chassis & these corrode & expand (the aluminium) & the insulator breaks down over time, so if the sills (inner, outer & floorpan edges) are weak, then it WILL move, no if's, but's or maybe's.
My feeling still remains that if it's this bad it's f***ed. (Very easy for someone used to working on what I work on to say I know, but one has to be realistic).
Hope this helps?
Best wishes, Al.
On the subject of it being on a separate chassis - if the sill structure is rotten then irrespective of it being bolted to the chassis it can very easily banana - they should be fitted with aluminium body shims & a hessian type insulator where they are bolted body to chassis & these corrode & expand (the aluminium) & the insulator breaks down over time, so if the sills (inner, outer & floorpan edges) are weak, then it WILL move, no if's, but's or maybe's.
My feeling still remains that if it's this bad it's f***ed. (Very easy for someone used to working on what I work on to say I know, but one has to be realistic).
Hope this helps?
Best wishes, Al.
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