Inspired by KDS wet sanding, how to refine top-coat?
Discussion
I'm reconditioning my wheels, I've tested a small area of wheel with some small samples of the product I want to use, so I'm happy there.
But, after seeing mirror lacquer, I want to achieve that kind of finish while I am at it, or very near.
I've had a go with 2000 wet and dry, and then buffing with about five passes of Autoglym SRP just as a test, and it's looking pretty damn smooth, but it was hard work and clearly I've skipped too many grades in doing so, and SRP isn't really the product for that task.
What I'd like to know is how far to go with papers, and then what the best compounds/polishes are to work right up to a mirror finish are.
I've noticed that some places sell 3000 grit or even 4000 grit papers, so I guess they are a good place to look, but what are the best hand-applied products to follow on from there to get this exceptional finish.
Also, for painters, can I layer my two pack top-coats just one on top of the other without any process between passes? Is there any way to aid the process to optimise the clarity of the finish except buying nice expensive lacquer?!
With them being wheels, and me doing this wet sanding, I'd prefer to have nice thick lacquer for longevity and also so I don't cut right through it too easily, but it's such a complex shape I'm having difficulty getting a decent amount on without getting runs, and I'd normally sand those out (but will that ruin the next coat on top if I do more coats? ie, am I best cutting each pass back to a flat layered gloss (runs out etc), then re-layering more clear ontop?)
Thanks for any help/advice
Dave
But, after seeing mirror lacquer, I want to achieve that kind of finish while I am at it, or very near.
I've had a go with 2000 wet and dry, and then buffing with about five passes of Autoglym SRP just as a test, and it's looking pretty damn smooth, but it was hard work and clearly I've skipped too many grades in doing so, and SRP isn't really the product for that task.
What I'd like to know is how far to go with papers, and then what the best compounds/polishes are to work right up to a mirror finish are.
I've noticed that some places sell 3000 grit or even 4000 grit papers, so I guess they are a good place to look, but what are the best hand-applied products to follow on from there to get this exceptional finish.
Also, for painters, can I layer my two pack top-coats just one on top of the other without any process between passes? Is there any way to aid the process to optimise the clarity of the finish except buying nice expensive lacquer?!
With them being wheels, and me doing this wet sanding, I'd prefer to have nice thick lacquer for longevity and also so I don't cut right through it too easily, but it's such a complex shape I'm having difficulty getting a decent amount on without getting runs, and I'd normally sand those out (but will that ruin the next coat on top if I do more coats? ie, am I best cutting each pass back to a flat layered gloss (runs out etc), then re-layering more clear ontop?)
Thanks for any help/advice
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Monday 18th May 22:09
Mr Whippy said:
I'm reconditioning my wheels, I've tested a small area of wheel with some small samples of the product I want to use, so I'm happy there.
But, after seeing mirror lacquer, I want to achieve that kind of finish while I am at it, or very near.
I've had a go with 2000 wet and dry, and then buffing with about five passes of Autoglym SRP just as a test, and it's looking pretty damn smooth, but it was hard work and clearly I've skipped too many grades in doing so, and SRP isn't really the product for that task.
What I'd like to know is how far to go with papers, and then what the best compounds/polishes are to work right up to a mirror finish are.
I've noticed that some places sell 3000 grit or even 4000 grit papers, so I guess they are a good place to look, but what are the best hand-applied products to follow on from there to get this exceptional finish.
Also, for painters, can I layer my two pack top-coats just one on top of the other without any process between passes? Is there any way to aid the process to optimise the clarity of the finish except buying nice expensive lacquer?!
With them being wheels, and me doing this wet sanding, I'd prefer to have nice thick lacquer for longevity and also so I don't cut right through it too easily, but it's such a complex shape I'm having difficulty getting a decent amount on without getting runs, and I'd normally sand those out (but will that ruin the next coat on top if I do more coats? ie, am I best cutting each pass back to a flat layered gloss (runs out etc), then re-layering more clear ontop?)
Thanks for any help/advice
Dave
Hi Dave , But, after seeing mirror lacquer, I want to achieve that kind of finish while I am at it, or very near.
I've had a go with 2000 wet and dry, and then buffing with about five passes of Autoglym SRP just as a test, and it's looking pretty damn smooth, but it was hard work and clearly I've skipped too many grades in doing so, and SRP isn't really the product for that task.
What I'd like to know is how far to go with papers, and then what the best compounds/polishes are to work right up to a mirror finish are.
I've noticed that some places sell 3000 grit or even 4000 grit papers, so I guess they are a good place to look, but what are the best hand-applied products to follow on from there to get this exceptional finish.
Also, for painters, can I layer my two pack top-coats just one on top of the other without any process between passes? Is there any way to aid the process to optimise the clarity of the finish except buying nice expensive lacquer?!
With them being wheels, and me doing this wet sanding, I'd prefer to have nice thick lacquer for longevity and also so I don't cut right through it too easily, but it's such a complex shape I'm having difficulty getting a decent amount on without getting runs, and I'd normally sand those out (but will that ruin the next coat on top if I do more coats? ie, am I best cutting each pass back to a flat layered gloss (runs out etc), then re-layering more clear ontop?)
Thanks for any help/advice
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Monday 18th May 22:09
When wet sanding Top clear coat / Laquer , sand paper type and grit will depend on cost and type of laquer used , finish from the gun and finish level trying to achieve .
I wet sand starting from 1500grit for 90 percent of my work then 2000grit , then finish with 2500 right upto 4000 grit depending on base colour of car to be wet sanded .
If you left the top coat sanded in 1500grit you could get an ok finish from 3m Fast cut plus , G3 and other agressive cuts from Meg and Menz . Then followed by light cut and machine polish .
Or wet sand with 1500,2000,3000 then machine polish with medium to light cut first , then machine polish for the jaw dropping results .
you will find that its possible to remove less material more safely by wet sanding with more grades and light machine polish than it is to 1500 only then hit the laquer hard with lots of agressive cut generating large amounts of heat on sharp edges .
I wet sanded another one of those lovely BMW's orange peel paint finishes to a new BMW X5 in black a few weeks back using the tech of 1500,2000,3000 (all done by hand as this had softer than usual paint for a new bmw) , then light cut and machine finish.
some before pics
during
after 2000grit wet sand
After 3000grit wet sand and now you can see the reflection and shine even before any cutting compounds and been used
This is after one and only one pass with fast cut plus from 3M
then followed with extra fine cut to finsh as show here clearly the reflection show the can of slow degreaser used to wipe the paint work down before any wax product is applied
The paint question multi layering top coat will slightly go cloudy/milky if say you put on 12 heavy coats comparied to 3 coats as laquer is not completely clear and varies from one make to another .
the best pactice to paint a show car without getting in sags and runs is to paint 3 coats of laquer let dry or best to bake , then wet flat back 1200grit key then recoat 3 coats of laquer .
Then wet flat the laquer to the flatness and orange peel finish you wish for and polish back .
You will end up with almost the same amount of laquer depth after this process than from 3 coats of laquer left from gun finish .
just really depends how good you are with spray paint equipment and paint material being used .
IN the ideal world you want to get the best possible finish straight from the gun and leave the laquer top coat alone or with the smallest rework possible .
I am sure if Tol reads this post will be able to add and explain much better the last part of the paint question
Kelly
Haha, I'd end up walking into a car that glossy 
Almost invisible 
Well, I did start working on my wheel. I had one powdercoated, got the usual wibbly top-coat, wasn't generally happy with the finish (I'll do them wet paint instead, no point paying to not be happy), so had a go at seeing how I could improve it.
Before and after of a small area:
That is with 2000, 2500, 3000, and then Megs Ultimate Finish by hand (I have no machine, but even so, I'd find it hard to get into the gaps with anything too big, might be a dremel sized tool job I suppose)
The reflection isn't as deep, as per your pre-final finish shot on the X5 bonnet, but the actual reflections are far superior.
Not sure how much deeper I can go, but it seems deep enough to remove all the pits/lumps in the clear on powdercoated wheels. It is also pretty damn hard to cut too. I think I just need the heat in the finishing compounds to really give it some serious deep gloss back (ie, reflections are more contrasted)
Thanks for the tips. I'm very tempted to have a go on an old car body panel now... just to have a feel for what it is like on normal two pack lacquer rather than this powder stuff
Cheers
Dave
Almost invisible Well, I did start working on my wheel. I had one powdercoated, got the usual wibbly top-coat, wasn't generally happy with the finish (I'll do them wet paint instead, no point paying to not be happy), so had a go at seeing how I could improve it.
Before and after of a small area:
That is with 2000, 2500, 3000, and then Megs Ultimate Finish by hand (I have no machine, but even so, I'd find it hard to get into the gaps with anything too big, might be a dremel sized tool job I suppose)
The reflection isn't as deep, as per your pre-final finish shot on the X5 bonnet, but the actual reflections are far superior.
Not sure how much deeper I can go, but it seems deep enough to remove all the pits/lumps in the clear on powdercoated wheels. It is also pretty damn hard to cut too. I think I just need the heat in the finishing compounds to really give it some serious deep gloss back (ie, reflections are more contrasted)
Thanks for the tips. I'm very tempted to have a go on an old car body panel now... just to have a feel for what it is like on normal two pack lacquer rather than this powder stuff
Cheers
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Tuesday 16th June 10:33
Hi Dave ,
Where did you get your wheels refurbed then ????
I ask as if you did not know by now i am opposite lepsons
http://www.lepsons.com/
so have some of the best guy's in the wheel refurb business next door to me and work together day to day .
The only part of the wheel refurb process by them that is powder coated is the primer coat which finishes very flat , the colour and laquer top coat are none powder paint ( wet finish spray paint some water based and some solvent based depending on colour )
They do heat the paint up through special paint equipment , so the paint hits the wheel at set temperature and the wheels are pre baked too .
Fine tuning of this set up has allowed excellent finishes straight from the gun with very quick curing times .
here are some pics of wheels after exiting the curing oven straight after painting (no reworking at all)
Found a pic of the powder coat primer clearly showing how flat it sits ,
some more pics
New M3 wheel after refurb for one of my customers , look at the gray finish between the spokes , the finish is nearly flat and glossy
I think you need to give lepsons ago at sometime and you will never look back if its the best finish your after
Kelly
Where did you get your wheels refurbed then ????
I ask as if you did not know by now i am opposite lepsons
http://www.lepsons.com/
so have some of the best guy's in the wheel refurb business next door to me and work together day to day .
The only part of the wheel refurb process by them that is powder coated is the primer coat which finishes very flat , the colour and laquer top coat are none powder paint ( wet finish spray paint some water based and some solvent based depending on colour )
They do heat the paint up through special paint equipment , so the paint hits the wheel at set temperature and the wheels are pre baked too .
Fine tuning of this set up has allowed excellent finishes straight from the gun with very quick curing times .
here are some pics of wheels after exiting the curing oven straight after painting (no reworking at all)
Found a pic of the powder coat primer clearly showing how flat it sits ,
some more pics
New M3 wheel after refurb for one of my customers , look at the gray finish between the spokes , the finish is nearly flat and glossy
I think you need to give lepsons ago at sometime and you will never look back if its the best finish your after
Kelly
I went to The Wheel Specialist in Leeds. It was £60 which wasn't bad (but that was bare wheel in, bare wheel out, left there for a week, no tyres, valves, nothing to touch)
I only got one done for the very reason I didn't expect perfection, but wanted to see HOW close I could get to it being what I wanted.
Lumpiness was a concern, but as far as I gathered that was due to the base application (followed by a wet metallic stage), and then the final coat of clear also inherited that lumpy nature (I guess that powder lacquer could do that, but wet probably won't anywhere near as badly)
So I wonder why their (Lepsons) bases come out so very flat. My wheels were apparently warmed up also, for the application. They did say they could flat (rub down) the base before the next coats, but it would be more like £90 a wheel. I also question if the lacquer isn't going on lumpy too (powder clear probably does!?), from my wet sanding exploits...
It looks like Lepsons basically have a much better, almost unique, powder process. Those M3 wheels look very good, tight clean highlights and an even base metallic finish even in the tight gaps up to the diamond cut face!
I'm still in two minds whether to just do them myself now. I know I can do a good enough job, it's just needing to buy a smaller detail gun, all the paint, get the wheels stripped back, and then all the time to do them...
My fall back is to just stump up the £90 a corner and get Steve Edwards to do a full wet-paint finish because I know I will get them back and not be able to find fault, which if I'm paying any money at all, is what I want
Lepsons are miles away unfortunately, as I am Leeds based.
Cheers for the post though, very interesting to see what Lepsons are doing... clearly not all powder coaters are equal, and there is a wider range to the quality potential than I expected!
Dave
I only got one done for the very reason I didn't expect perfection, but wanted to see HOW close I could get to it being what I wanted.
Lumpiness was a concern, but as far as I gathered that was due to the base application (followed by a wet metallic stage), and then the final coat of clear also inherited that lumpy nature (I guess that powder lacquer could do that, but wet probably won't anywhere near as badly)
So I wonder why their (Lepsons) bases come out so very flat. My wheels were apparently warmed up also, for the application. They did say they could flat (rub down) the base before the next coats, but it would be more like £90 a wheel. I also question if the lacquer isn't going on lumpy too (powder clear probably does!?), from my wet sanding exploits...
It looks like Lepsons basically have a much better, almost unique, powder process. Those M3 wheels look very good, tight clean highlights and an even base metallic finish even in the tight gaps up to the diamond cut face!
I'm still in two minds whether to just do them myself now. I know I can do a good enough job, it's just needing to buy a smaller detail gun, all the paint, get the wheels stripped back, and then all the time to do them...
My fall back is to just stump up the £90 a corner and get Steve Edwards to do a full wet-paint finish because I know I will get them back and not be able to find fault, which if I'm paying any money at all, is what I want
Lepsons are miles away unfortunately, as I am Leeds based.
Cheers for the post though, very interesting to see what Lepsons are doing... clearly not all powder coaters are equal, and there is a wider range to the quality potential than I expected!
Dave
Hi Dave ,
Do you mind me asking what size/type and colour wheels you are trying to get the perfect finish on ?????
Just spoke to the owner of lepsons and shown him this thread (he would not even know how to turn on a pc so was mighty impressed with the whole internet thing )
The M3 wheel in my post is standard wet paint system (as vehicle bodies) , but even more impressive is the complete black wheel and the diamond cut/black wheel are both complete powder coat primer,powder coat black colour and powder coat clear laquer
Kelly
Do you mind me asking what size/type and colour wheels you are trying to get the perfect finish on ?????
Just spoke to the owner of lepsons and shown him this thread (he would not even know how to turn on a pc so was mighty impressed with the whole internet thing
) The M3 wheel in my post is standard wet paint system (as vehicle bodies) , but even more impressive is the complete black wheel and the diamond cut/black wheel are both complete powder coat primer,powder coat black colour and powder coat clear laquer
Kelly
Hi,
The wheels are BMW "107" style wheels... BBS 18" J x 8.0" front, 8.5" rear, with the bigger bead hump inside for Run Flat Tyres.
The powder coater did use a Deutche (sp?) Silver finish, since I want an OEM finish (or as close as can be done)
I wish, looking back, I'd just bought a set of new ones back when I got the car, but I wanted to take the hard route. I guess I've learnt plenty along the way which is why I always enjoy these projects. I'll get there in the end and have some good knowledge from it all.
All good straight wheels, tyres removed etc. Got the prep materials, tested the wheelpaints.co.uk paints and they were good on my test (did 1/3rd of a wheel), got the air-fed mask, compressors etc, just stripping the buggers back is a real pain... the hardest bit really, hence me taking a punt on a recommended powder coater.
The adventures of sorting wheels out for a car
Dave
The wheels are BMW "107" style wheels... BBS 18" J x 8.0" front, 8.5" rear, with the bigger bead hump inside for Run Flat Tyres.
The powder coater did use a Deutche (sp?) Silver finish, since I want an OEM finish (or as close as can be done)
I wish, looking back, I'd just bought a set of new ones back when I got the car, but I wanted to take the hard route. I guess I've learnt plenty along the way which is why I always enjoy these projects. I'll get there in the end and have some good knowledge from it all.
All good straight wheels, tyres removed etc. Got the prep materials, tested the wheelpaints.co.uk paints and they were good on my test (did 1/3rd of a wheel), got the air-fed mask, compressors etc, just stripping the buggers back is a real pain... the hardest bit really, hence me taking a punt on a recommended powder coater.
The adventures of sorting wheels out for a car
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Wednesday 17th June 21:27
Dave ,
I am about to put more salt in your wounds
But this may help you a little ,
Owner of lepsons guessed the right wheel from just your close up pics (which i will be telling him tomorrow) .
That very wheel painted in any standard silver finishes (covers all silvers apart from chrome finish), upto 18 inch without out tyre is
£47 + vat each perfect finish 1 years warranty .
with tyres valve rebalance etc £53 + vat
If chrome silvers then £65 + vat
Lepsons have wheels being collected and delivered from all over the country .
might be worth giving them a ring sometime Ask for chris and say i said to ring if you do decide too
Funny thing is so many of the public think lepsons like myself are expensive as the quality is right up there at the top of our game , when its clearly not the fact as just shown with the finish and price you just got and found out for yourself
I am about to put more salt in your wounds
But this may help you a little ,
Owner of lepsons guessed the right wheel from just your close up pics (which i will be telling him tomorrow) .
That very wheel painted in any standard silver finishes (covers all silvers apart from chrome finish), upto 18 inch without out tyre is
£47 + vat each perfect finish 1 years warranty .
with tyres valve rebalance etc £53 + vat
If chrome silvers then £65 + vat
Lepsons have wheels being collected and delivered from all over the country .
might be worth giving them a ring sometime Ask for chris and say i said to ring if you do decide too
Funny thing is so many of the public think lepsons like myself are expensive as the quality is right up there at the top of our game , when its clearly not the fact as just shown with the finish and price you just got and found out for yourself
mneame said:
lepsons is where i'll be getting my dad to send his scoob wheels then for a refurb when he gets around to it. That finish for that price is an absolute steal.
(full correction detail on his scoob this weekend, he can do all the prep and then i'll do the wet sanding and polishing)
Matt when you are ready for the wheel refurb drop me an email and i will go over to lepsons take some pics of the process if i have the time as well as make sure they know a detailer will be inspecting the wheels (full correction detail on his scoob this weekend, he can do all the prep and then i'll do the wet sanding and polishing)
kds keltec said:
mneame said:
lepsons is where i'll be getting my dad to send his scoob wheels then for a refurb when he gets around to it. That finish for that price is an absolute steal.
(full correction detail on his scoob this weekend, he can do all the prep and then i'll do the wet sanding and polishing)
Matt when you are ready for the wheel refurb drop me an email and i will go over to lepsons take some pics of the process if i have the time as well as make sure they know a detailer will be inspecting the wheels (full correction detail on his scoob this weekend, he can do all the prep and then i'll do the wet sanding and polishing)
I had to seal up some wheels recently which had been refurbed and come straight to me from a local wheel refurb / powder coaters. Let's just say there's no way I'd ever use the company that carried the work out. They were patchy on the insides, lumpy and not very glossy for a supposed gloss finish. Still the owner was happy with them. He's due to get another set refurbed by them and is going to mention the finish. I did try to convince him to go to Lepsons instead. Think it fell on deaf ears though
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