Car detailing - damages cars paint work - true or false?
Discussion
Methinks he misunderstands the meaning of detailing....
I agree that if each time you detail a car you break out the rotary and machine polish it as this will remove layers of clear and will eventually caused clearcoat failure and strike through.
However, detailing is more about correction then protection from inflicting swirls and holograms. Once the paintwork is clear of marks, if the protection laid onto the paint and the correct washing regime is used, there shouldnt be a need for machine polishing.
I agree that if each time you detail a car you break out the rotary and machine polish it as this will remove layers of clear and will eventually caused clearcoat failure and strike through.
However, detailing is more about correction then protection from inflicting swirls and holograms. Once the paintwork is clear of marks, if the protection laid onto the paint and the correct washing regime is used, there shouldnt be a need for machine polishing.
CarNut101 said:
i think thats why they just leave scratches on cars ..
From experience, IMHO the reason car dealers leave the scratches and swirls (more often inflicted by them anyway with their guy 'chamoising them down each morning') is that they dont want to pay for correction and unfortunately, the average customer wouldnt notice swirls.I went to a higher end executive car dealership here in Norwich once to look over a car bought by a client and give them an idea of what would be needed to correct issues he had spotted.
On talking to the Sales manager, he said that if he sold 10 cars from his front display, all with swirled and marked paintwork, maybe and it would be a big maybe, one might just comment on the quality of the paintwork. This was his justification to not spending money on paint correction and even just learning about the correct way to 'wipe down' cars without inflicting damage.
I guess, we are a minority in our quest for paint perfection....
Depends if you are carrying out a protection detail or a correction detail.
1 uses abrasives, which if used incorrectly can pose problems and by the nature of the process a layer of the cars surface is being removed.
Yet, a protection detail is not an abrasive process.
I think the guy needs educating and is using his "thought" process to sell a paint protection product perhaps?!
1 uses abrasives, which if used incorrectly can pose problems and by the nature of the process a layer of the cars surface is being removed.
Yet, a protection detail is not an abrasive process.
I think the guy needs educating and is using his "thought" process to sell a paint protection product perhaps?!
CarNut101 said:
I was told this week by a Manager of a Leading Prestige / sports car main dealers that you shouldnt detail your car as it wears down and weakens the clear coat..
i think thats why they just leave scratches on cars ..
Some one has really got their facts slightly out there . i think thats why they just leave scratches on cars ..
True when machine correcting (polishing with the use of machine, wool/foam compounding head and cutting compound) then yes you are removing material usually clear coat with all modern cars and paint, but this can be a very small amount with many machine correction processes taking place before getting near the limit of clear coat failure .
There are way to many varying factors to make such a silly and bold claim .
1) how deep is the damage
2) how many times has the car been machine polish before
3) has the car been repaired before (most likely)
4) how much paint is there to play with (measured correctly with paint depth gauge)
5) what method of detailing is being undertaken , protection detail (no machine correction ) , Part machine correction (removal of most damage) , or full machine correction (removal of all damage)
6) even different makes of paint can tollerate different amounts of clear coat removal before failure .
A professional detailer removing swirls etc correctly (MIN amount removed) , and then showing the owner how to look after the nice freshly detailed paint work has got a far better chance , then someone that knows a little about detailing and paint having a go themselves usually on their own car , giving good results which they are more than pleased with but not realising the amount of material they have removed in doing such a process without taking measurement first and during .
This is not a problem on its own but is when the 3rd or 4th owner has done the same only to find they have broke through the clear coat .
I have noticed more of the cars i see have less clear coat now due to less from factory and thousands of guys out on sunny weekends machine polishing their own cars
Here is an example from a while back of the amount of material removed .
An Audi A8 with swirls like this all over the car
I set up this equipment as the customer asked to see how much material would be removed from his clear coat to remove the damage .
Laser light shining on the bonnet so that i can measure in the exact same place everytime .
just before taking the measurement you can see the red laser dot on the bonnet
Took around 10 readings find an average 116 microns total paint depth
Then machine polish with 3M green compounding foam and 3M fast cut plus , which is an aggressive cut using aggressive machine (rotory)
Look straight to the right of the green polishing foam you can see even at angle with no direct light the marks in the bonnet .
The reading after all the defects where removed 114 microns
to leave this
When you consider that measuring paint from factory across a panel a variation of 10 microns can be the norm and seen 30 microns on new BMW's new crap orange peel finish . Then removing 2 microns is really not going to harm .
If i measured the same spot on the bonnet as shown on the photos cold 15deg and then at say 60deg in the sun the figure would go up due to expansion thats the small numbers we are dealing with here .
100 mircons is the thickness of a quality piece of A4 printing paper .
So 2 microns is tiny .
Kelly
Edited by kds keltec on Wednesday 8th July 22:02
James, we both know from when they visited me at my unit, that they are clueless lol!
One of the guys thought that clearcoat was applied by machine polishing! And scratches were caused by removing the polish that had been applied, I did tell him he should learn a bit about the subject before opening his mouth.....
One of the guys thought that clearcoat was applied by machine polishing! And scratches were caused by removing the polish that had been applied, I did tell him he should learn a bit about the subject before opening his mouth.....
mobil 3 said:
Sorry to hi jack this thread but i have a question with paint readings
the paint depth reading is total paint right?
so how do you get just the clear coat reading as this is most important cuz if you burn through this your stuffed
You carn't is the simple answer but an educated guess from knowledge of the paint process will help.the paint depth reading is total paint right?
so how do you get just the clear coat reading as this is most important cuz if you burn through this your stuffed
Your average car will have these layers;
E-coat - anti-rust coating
Primer - possibly two coats depending on the car manufacturer
Base coat - colour
Clear coat.
As an average the clear coat depth on a single primer car would be around the 70micron mark with the total being 135microns.
You can, if you invest £1200 ish in a DeFelsko Positector 200, which shows graphically the separate layers.
How accurate it is, is open to conjecture, but it's an indicator with which to base your experience and judgement on.
Measuring the door shut/jam area, and/or under the bonnet, then subtracting those measurements from those taken on the panels, is another indicator of what you have to work with.
How accurate it is, is open to conjecture, but it's an indicator with which to base your experience and judgement on.
Measuring the door shut/jam area, and/or under the bonnet, then subtracting those measurements from those taken on the panels, is another indicator of what you have to work with.
PJ S said:
You can, if you invest £1200 ish in a DeFelsko Positector 200, which shows graphically the separate layers.
How accurate it is, is open to conjecture, but it's an indicator with which to base your experience and judgement on.
Measuring the door shut/jam area, and/or under the bonnet, then subtracting those measurements from those taken on the panels, is another indicator of what you have to work with.
We tried one of those at work and to say it was inaccurate was an understatement.How accurate it is, is open to conjecture, but it's an indicator with which to base your experience and judgement on.
Measuring the door shut/jam area, and/or under the bonnet, then subtracting those measurements from those taken on the panels, is another indicator of what you have to work with.
Luckyluciano said:
PJ S said:
You can, if you invest £1200 ish in a DeFelsko Positector 200, which shows graphically the separate layers.
How accurate it is, is open to conjecture, but it's an indicator with which to base your experience and judgement on.
Measuring the door shut/jam area, and/or under the bonnet, then subtracting those measurements from those taken on the panels, is another indicator of what you have to work with.
We tried one of those at work and to say it was inaccurate was an understatement.How accurate it is, is open to conjecture, but it's an indicator with which to base your experience and judgement on.
Measuring the door shut/jam area, and/or under the bonnet, then subtracting those measurements from those taken on the panels, is another indicator of what you have to work with.
I use one and its totally accurate when calibrated correctly before use ,
Two layer readings
Two reading taken on a bonnet using infa red spot for same placement of measuring head
posi 6000 ferrous and no ferrous reading and very easy and reliable
posi 200 ultrasound
The positector 200 took me days of playing before it all made sense and i used to work around millions of pounds worth of measuring equipment on a daily basis in a R & D company .
you need to calibrate the 200 before use , take a reading then look at the graph not figures then set the gates to remove any noise readings , then set the amount of layers measuring , then take a reading .
3 layers
The same car comparing results between 200 and 6000
Kelly
Edited by kds keltec on Tuesday 25th August 14:14
Luckyluciano said:
Can i ask what you did to calibrate it?
When the lads in the lab tested it they where comparing it against cut sections under the microscope(plugs)
their comments were not good about it at all.
using a few ways When the lads in the lab tested it they where comparing it against cut sections under the microscope(plugs)
their comments were not good about it at all.
shims on known substance , sorry no picces need to take some ,
http://www.defelsko.com/shims/certified-plastic-sh...
first picture on the left
http://www.defelsko.com/shims/standards-shims-faq....
And as you can see in the photos use the gauges side by side to get a better feel for them ,
I even had different materials machined flat so that i could place shims on top of different sub bases then see how consistent the reading are .
cut up some scrap plastic and metal panels measured the base material thickness then the total , after sliced the paint of of the cut edge and measured that with micrometer , aswell as measuring where the panel had no paint .
The 200 can give some truely wrong readings sometime but are so wrong with experiance you know to alter the settings .
The amount of times i got 30 - 40 microns from any reading when first using it only to realise it is reading the first reading on the graph scale on the right which is noise , set the gate above the noise and you get the true reading , also the multiple layer reading only works on some paint types due to paint blending into the layer below giving just one layer .
Plastics are painted different from the factory on most cars so the layer setting works much better .
I am totally happy with the way they work and plenty good enough for my line of work ,
was warned by the supplier that the reading from an ultrasound machine can be inconsistent sometimes thou which is far play to the supplier for telling the truth .
I did enquire about the £150 paint depth machines and after using one and speaking the supplier who then spoke to the company who makes them in had no faith with them .
talks about loads back for repair and inconsistent reading
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