Are swirl marks inevitable?
Discussion
So I bought my black Porsche Carrera last August and it had just been properly detailed. Not a swirl mark in sight.
I have used the car over winter and washed it carefully. Jet wash at 45 degree angle. Jet wash it again. Lambs wool mit, two buckets with grit guards. Waffle towel blotting not wiping.
The car still looks a million dollars - until the sun comes out. Then it is apparent that there are trillions of tiny scratches. I cannot call them swirls because they are in straight lines. The same straight lines I use with the wash mit.
So, are swirl marks in dark paint unavoidable over time? I cannot see how I could have been any more careful.
Manks
im sure it is inevitable, i have had the same on a brand new focus st, been very careful when washing and never let it get into a situation where it mught be damaged, but then when the sun hits it you can see them.
a good polish should mask them well enough, although i know its not what you want, you want your carefully looked after and washed paintwork to just be 100% as no damage has been caused but i dont think thats possible.
its a s
t and looks much worse on black cars.
a good polish should mask them well enough, although i know its not what you want, you want your carefully looked after and washed paintwork to just be 100% as no damage has been caused but i dont think thats possible.
its a s
t and looks much worse on black cars.jayplay28 said:
You will pick up light wash marring etc over a period of time no matter how careful you are. If using correct wash techiques it shouldnt be too bad so in say a years time all that is needed is a very light machine polish to correct
To add to what jay put correctly , i would say that because you have a porsche and unless its been painted in the past it will almost garranty its got soft paint which does mark extremely easy . You can machine correct porsche paint with a pre-wax cleanser its that soft , and when i have a bad one in as i do now , i only start the heavy cut with extra fine compound then finish with 3m ultrafine machine polish, where as on hard paint you could be starting with a cut 2-3 steps more aggressive on the 3M range and even then take twice as long to remove all the swirls and damage.
The porsche i have in at the moment has a GT3 body kit and the kit has marked alot less but is taking far longer using 3M Fast cut plus aggressive compound due to it been painted afterwards with a tough top coat lacquer
The porsche is the perfect car where i smaller "enhancement detail" 1 step / 1 stage / 1 pass correction carried out once a year will bring it back to its former glory due to the soft nature of the paint .
Kelly
Kelly
I have not found a detailer round here who I can trust, and anyway I don't want to have to have it detailed monthly to keep it looking nice. Can you suggest any polishes etc I can use to mask the scratches? I am currently using PoorBoys Black Hole and DoDo Juice Need for Speed. They give a great finish but when the sun is on the car it's got that brushed stainless steel look...
Manks
Manks said:
Kelly
I have not found a detailer round here who I can trust, and anyway I don't want to have to have it detailed monthly to keep it looking nice. Can you suggest any polishes etc I can use to mask the scratches? I am currently using PoorBoys Black Hole and DoDo Juice Need for Speed. They give a great finish but when the sun is on the car it's got that brushed stainless steel look...
Manks
Manks the quote about detailers in your area , has got me a little lost not sure if trust with P&J or meant trust to only do an enhancement detail at enhance price ??? I have not found a detailer round here who I can trust, and anyway I don't want to have to have it detailed monthly to keep it looking nice. Can you suggest any polishes etc I can use to mask the scratches? I am currently using PoorBoys Black Hole and DoDo Juice Need for Speed. They give a great finish but when the sun is on the car it's got that brushed stainless steel look...
Manks
You should only need a machine on such a car once a year not every month if you have been explained correctly and using all the correct products (which it sounds like you know and do thou).
Porsche 911's can have super soft paint , i find that i am always opening up new packs of cloths etc due to the easy mark nature.
Thank porsche for so called semi healing paint.
If you have a light bright coloured car with hard paint then it is possible to go many years before correction repeat visit.
This car was fully corrected a year ago and had rock hard paint, the owner just hoses/jets off the worst of the grime , then brings it once every three months for good clean and re-coat of wax, it still looks like the day we did it (the plus to hard paint and forgiving colour), this includes hot mid summer trips across europe and trip across england in all the salt snow this winter.
The car was in at the same time as visit from Dom of dodo juice and he could vouch for how good it still looks.
end pics of masser grand turismo
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
As said above his is of course as owner leaves it alone so what, has rock hard paint and forgiving colour,
you have the complete opposite i am afraid to say
I do think the choice of black hole and then need for speed is slightly wrong , dom will be along to prove me wrong , but i think the need for speed will remove the black hole as its an all in one wax cleaner/filler/wax.
I guess you want a pure glaze and then real wax/sealent only with no cleaners or fine cut.
The best sealent for filling is this Bilt hamber auto balm
can be seen in action here
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
Hope this helps,
if you really need more help drop tracy a line form my website she will be able to run through some ideas and help.
Ps i also have a large amount of content to add to my website (web desiners have gone missing in action) this will cover all different packages ended up with 8 detail options 4 machine correction 4 none machine correction , 4 quality valet packages and lastly 13 bolt on options . m
This has taken along time to construct but tried to cover every possible need from the customers
Kelly
Thanks for a full reply Kelly
What I mean about detailers is that I know several valeters who will valet my car for £80 and might even use a clean sponge. I used a chap last year who charged several times that claiming to be a detailer. He did what I'd call a posh valet. It wasn't a detail and I was not especially impressed.
I would not normally choose a black car due to cleaning issues, but it was the right car and it looked great. Here it is after it was last detailed properly. I liked the look - sharp reflections and not overdone:
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.p...
I don't like the DoDo Juice Need for Speed; it's weird and hard to use, it smears easily and can leave stripes. I also don't think it has any filling qualities. I used it because that's what had been used on the car before. The Bilt stuff looks superb though, I might look it up.
Though to be honest what I really need is a good detailer who I can trust to look after my car regularly. I.e. someone who can keep it looking like it does in the above snaps.
Manks
What I mean about detailers is that I know several valeters who will valet my car for £80 and might even use a clean sponge. I used a chap last year who charged several times that claiming to be a detailer. He did what I'd call a posh valet. It wasn't a detail and I was not especially impressed.
I would not normally choose a black car due to cleaning issues, but it was the right car and it looked great. Here it is after it was last detailed properly. I liked the look - sharp reflections and not overdone:
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.p...
I don't like the DoDo Juice Need for Speed; it's weird and hard to use, it smears easily and can leave stripes. I also don't think it has any filling qualities. I used it because that's what had been used on the car before. The Bilt stuff looks superb though, I might look it up.
Though to be honest what I really need is a good detailer who I can trust to look after my car regularly. I.e. someone who can keep it looking like it does in the above snaps.
Manks
Kelly is right. Need for Speed will remove the glaze (Black Hole). The correct sequence is to use Need for Speed first, this then gives about a month of durability, and the Black Hole can sit on top as a glaze and filler. However, if the swirls are too deep then you may still see them - people think fillers hide shut gaps, but they really only mask the smaller defects, marks and marring (like machine buffer trails/hologramming).
Interestingly, Need for Speed could polish out the swirls if used by machine and leave a decent finish. So if you did machine it yourself, try the NFS with a polishing pad.
Sadly, as has been said, swirls tend to be inevitable no matter how good the regime. There is also a chance that some minor marring may have been filled by a product and removed at the wash stage. And also, sometimes unbuffed oily products like glazes and waxes *look* like swirls but aren't - so do apply a degreaser or solvent to the panel in a small areas just to check it isn't a product that is 'hologramming'. There are many causes of swirls, as a visual defect, on paint.
Interestingly, Need for Speed could polish out the swirls if used by machine and leave a decent finish. So if you did machine it yourself, try the NFS with a polishing pad.
Sadly, as has been said, swirls tend to be inevitable no matter how good the regime. There is also a chance that some minor marring may have been filled by a product and removed at the wash stage. And also, sometimes unbuffed oily products like glazes and waxes *look* like swirls but aren't - so do apply a degreaser or solvent to the panel in a small areas just to check it isn't a product that is 'hologramming'. There are many causes of swirls, as a visual defect, on paint.
PS Need for Speed is only smearing because you are leaving it on too long, and also I am not sure what product interference is going on with the Black Hole. Make sure it is not left on too long. Products will smear if overcured - apply it max panel by panel then buff - and it leaves a great finish (and is easy to use) if applied and removed in this way. Use it as a wipe on, wipe off product if need be. The smearing can also occur if there is minor damage to the clearcoat from the effects of UV light - this mainly troubles black and red cars. Patchy smears may result. The golden rule is not to leave on too long.
domster said:
Kelly is right. Need for Speed will remove the glaze (Black Hole). The correct sequence is to use Need for Speed first, this then gives about a month of durability, and the Black Hole can sit on top as a glaze and filler. However, if the swirls are too deep then you may still see them - people think fillers hide shut gaps, but they really only mask the smaller defects, marks and marring (like machine buffer trails/hologramming).
Interestingly, Need for Speed could polish out the swirls if used by machine and leave a decent finish. So if you did machine it yourself, try the NFS with a polishing pad.
Sadly, as has been said, swirls tend to be inevitable no matter how good the regime. There is also a chance that some minor marring may have been filled by a product and removed at the wash stage. And also, sometimes unbuffed oily products like glazes and waxes *look* like swirls but aren't - so do apply a degreaser or solvent to the panel in a small areas just to check it isn't a product that is 'hologramming'. There are many causes of swirls, as a visual defect, on paint.
DomInterestingly, Need for Speed could polish out the swirls if used by machine and leave a decent finish. So if you did machine it yourself, try the NFS with a polishing pad.
Sadly, as has been said, swirls tend to be inevitable no matter how good the regime. There is also a chance that some minor marring may have been filled by a product and removed at the wash stage. And also, sometimes unbuffed oily products like glazes and waxes *look* like swirls but aren't - so do apply a degreaser or solvent to the panel in a small areas just to check it isn't a product that is 'hologramming'. There are many causes of swirls, as a visual defect, on paint.
I think the chap that detailed my car before I bought it used NFS with a machine.
Hologramming is the description I was struggling for.
I like the finish that NFS gives more than wax. But in the last nine months the car has had several different products on it and now, as I say, I've got some hologramming. I almost wonder whether it is time to start again, or more probably ask someone else to do it.
Manks
When it comes to all the make and models that i detail
The 911 in black is by far the most common, got to the stage where staff finish a phone enquiry and its "guess what another black porsche booked in"
Mr G above is been around enough 911's in his detailing job too
last few months and look whats been in
<img src="http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll168/kdskeltec/porsche%20911%20lapis%20blue/afterdetail5.jpg">
Like buses these black porsche's
I have found some streaking on a few 911's with regards to some waxes too as you described.
kelly
The 911 in black is by far the most common, got to the stage where staff finish a phone enquiry and its "guess what another black porsche booked in"
Mr G above is been around enough 911's in his detailing job too
last few months and look whats been in
<img src="http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll168/kdskeltec/porsche%20911%20lapis%20blue/afterdetail5.jpg">
Like buses these black porsche's
I have found some streaking on a few 911's with regards to some waxes too as you described.
kelly
Manks said:
domster said:
Kelly is right. Need for Speed will remove the glaze (Black Hole). The correct sequence is to use Need for Speed first, this then gives about a month of durability, and the Black Hole can sit on top as a glaze and filler. However, if the swirls are too deep then you may still see them - people think fillers hide shut gaps, but they really only mask the smaller defects, marks and marring (like machine buffer trails/hologramming).
Interestingly, Need for Speed could polish out the swirls if used by machine and leave a decent finish. So if you did machine it yourself, try the NFS with a polishing pad.
Sadly, as has been said, swirls tend to be inevitable no matter how good the regime. There is also a chance that some minor marring may have been filled by a product and removed at the wash stage. And also, sometimes unbuffed oily products like glazes and waxes *look* like swirls but aren't - so do apply a degreaser or solvent to the panel in a small areas just to check it isn't a product that is 'hologramming'. There are many causes of swirls, as a visual defect, on paint.
DomInterestingly, Need for Speed could polish out the swirls if used by machine and leave a decent finish. So if you did machine it yourself, try the NFS with a polishing pad.
Sadly, as has been said, swirls tend to be inevitable no matter how good the regime. There is also a chance that some minor marring may have been filled by a product and removed at the wash stage. And also, sometimes unbuffed oily products like glazes and waxes *look* like swirls but aren't - so do apply a degreaser or solvent to the panel in a small areas just to check it isn't a product that is 'hologramming'. There are many causes of swirls, as a visual defect, on paint.
I think the chap that detailed my car before I bought it used NFS with a machine.
Hologramming is the description I was struggling for.
I like the finish that NFS gives more than wax. But in the last nine months the car has had several different products on it and now, as I say, I've got some hologramming. I almost wonder whether it is time to start again, or more probably ask someone else to do it.
Manks
Aha, if it is hologramming - those small radial micro-marring patterns that seem to 'rotate' when you move the viewing angle - then they were either inflicted at machine polishing stage when the detailer failed to finish down enough and then accidentally filled the finish with compound oils or wax/sealant (applying fresh NFS will remove them) - or they will be product surface smearing so do see if solvent removes them in a small inconspicuous area. If they are physical, it just needs finishing down properly. This isn't a slur on the guy doing your car at all, as fillers can fool anyone, but this could be a cause. The thing is, you may think you are creating a flaw that could potentially have been there all along - you have just uncovered it... the only way to guard against fillers is with very thorough wipedowns to check progress, and ultimately to do multi-stage correction with decent finishing down. Especially if the paint is tough Porsche paint - a one step correction is unlikely to physically create a perfect finish. Not impossible, but highly unlikely IMO.
ATB
D
domster said:
Manks said:
domster said:
Kelly is right. Need for Speed will remove the glaze (Black Hole). The correct sequence is to use Need for Speed first, this then gives about a month of durability, and the Black Hole can sit on top as a glaze and filler. However, if the swirls are too deep then you may still see them - people think fillers hide shut gaps, but they really only mask the smaller defects, marks and marring (like machine buffer trails/hologramming).
Interestingly, Need for Speed could polish out the swirls if used by machine and leave a decent finish. So if you did machine it yourself, try the NFS with a polishing pad.
Sadly, as has been said, swirls tend to be inevitable no matter how good the regime. There is also a chance that some minor marring may have been filled by a product and removed at the wash stage. And also, sometimes unbuffed oily products like glazes and waxes *look* like swirls but aren't - so do apply a degreaser or solvent to the panel in a small areas just to check it isn't a product that is 'hologramming'. There are many causes of swirls, as a visual defect, on paint.
DomInterestingly, Need for Speed could polish out the swirls if used by machine and leave a decent finish. So if you did machine it yourself, try the NFS with a polishing pad.
Sadly, as has been said, swirls tend to be inevitable no matter how good the regime. There is also a chance that some minor marring may have been filled by a product and removed at the wash stage. And also, sometimes unbuffed oily products like glazes and waxes *look* like swirls but aren't - so do apply a degreaser or solvent to the panel in a small areas just to check it isn't a product that is 'hologramming'. There are many causes of swirls, as a visual defect, on paint.
I think the chap that detailed my car before I bought it used NFS with a machine.
Hologramming is the description I was struggling for.
I like the finish that NFS gives more than wax. But in the last nine months the car has had several different products on it and now, as I say, I've got some hologramming. I almost wonder whether it is time to start again, or more probably ask someone else to do it.
Manks
Aha, if it is hologramming - those small radial micro-marring patterns that seem to 'rotate' when you move the viewing angle - then they were either inflicted at machine polishing stage when the detailer failed to finish down enough and then accidentally filled the finish with compound oils or wax/sealant (applying fresh NFS will remove them) - or they will be product surface smearing so do see if solvent removes them in a small inconspicuous area. If they are physical, it just needs finishing down properly. This isn't a slur on the guy doing your car at all, as fillers can fool anyone, but this could be a cause. The thing is, you may think you are creating a flaw that could potentially have been there all along - you have just uncovered it... the only way to guard against fillers is with very thorough wipedowns to check progress, and ultimately to do multi-stage correction with decent finishing down. Especially if the paint is tough Porsche paint - a one step correction is unlikely to physically create a perfect finish. Not impossible, but highly unlikely IMO.
ATB
D
When I was a kid it was so much simpler. My Dad used to wash his car with a sponge that had rust and stones in it, chamois leather and a coat of Turtle wax and you could see your face in it.
Manks
Manks said:
Though to be honest what I really need is a good detailer who I can trust to look after my car regularly. I.e. someone who can keep it looking like it does in the above snaps.
Manks where are you based? I am sure one of us could point you in the right direction in finding a GOOD PROFESSIONAL DETAILER.Edited by jayplay28 on Tuesday 2nd March 22:29
jayplay28 said:
Manks said:
Though to be honest what I really need is a good detailer who I can trust to look after my car regularly. I.e. someone who can keep it looking like it does in the above snaps.
Manks where are you based? I am sure one of us could point you in the right direction in finding a GOOD PROFESSIONAL DETAILER.Edited by jayplay28 on Tuesday 2nd March 22:29
Manks said:
jayplay28 said:
Manks said:
Though to be honest what I really need is a good detailer who I can trust to look after my car regularly. I.e. someone who can keep it looking like it does in the above snaps.
Manks where are you based? I am sure one of us could point you in the right direction in finding a GOOD PROFESSIONAL DETAILER.Edited by jayplay28 on Tuesday 2nd March 22:29
Or Gurcham at www.elitedetailer.com
Edited by jayplay28 on Tuesday 2nd March 22:40
Manks said:
elitedetailer said:
Hi
Is your car Basalt black or straight black?
The difference in how hard the clear coat is between the two is massive.
G
BasaltIs your car Basalt black or straight black?
The difference in how hard the clear coat is between the two is massive.
G
G
Gassing Station | Bodywork & Detailing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff