Poorly Developed Modifications
Discussion
While researching the fitting of power steering to my Mk2 Jaguar I was surprised to find that some of the kits available don't take into account the correct steering geometry and after bolting on you are left with a car with excessive bump steer that can't be adjusted out.
From previous experience with badly modified five speed gearboxes it is apparent that many readily available "modifications" are not adequately developed and/or the people producing them simply do not have the knowledge or facilities to test them correctly.
It would be interesting to hear of other peoples experiences and opinions.
Also should it be mandatory for these modified parts to undergo independent verification of some sort ? I appreciate this would not be a simple task.
From previous experience with badly modified five speed gearboxes it is apparent that many readily available "modifications" are not adequately developed and/or the people producing them simply do not have the knowledge or facilities to test them correctly.
It would be interesting to hear of other peoples experiences and opinions.
Also should it be mandatory for these modified parts to undergo independent verification of some sort ? I appreciate this would not be a simple task.
Edited by mph on Saturday 3rd September 07:59
Edited by mph on Saturday 3rd September 08:00
Why modify? (Ducks below the parapet...)
What's wrong with originality? The MkII didn't need power steering when it was new and it doesn't need it now, unless you are physically disabled - in which case maybe you should think of driving something else. Doesn't need a 5-speed gearbox or uprated brakes either. It is what it is. It isn't a motor 40-odd years old that should be expected to drive like a Ford Focus and anyone who owns one should be prepared to drive/use it with that in mind. I had no problems. And my old Wolseley 16/60 had standard crap drum brakes but I managed to drive it around the UK, deriving great enjoyment and without bumping into anything else.
In the same vein, why drop a twin-cam Fiat/Lancia motor into a Morris Minor? If you don't like the way a Minor does things then buy a b****y Lancia!
Modifying and uprating old cars is an industry that has grown up in response to misguided demand IMHO, presumably driven by the sort of people who are now buying old Jaguars, etc, without any real understanding of what they are about.
Which is, of course, part of the reason that many of these 'upgrades' may be of questionable quality or effectiveness.
Rant over (for now).
What's wrong with originality? The MkII didn't need power steering when it was new and it doesn't need it now, unless you are physically disabled - in which case maybe you should think of driving something else. Doesn't need a 5-speed gearbox or uprated brakes either. It is what it is. It isn't a motor 40-odd years old that should be expected to drive like a Ford Focus and anyone who owns one should be prepared to drive/use it with that in mind. I had no problems. And my old Wolseley 16/60 had standard crap drum brakes but I managed to drive it around the UK, deriving great enjoyment and without bumping into anything else.
In the same vein, why drop a twin-cam Fiat/Lancia motor into a Morris Minor? If you don't like the way a Minor does things then buy a b****y Lancia!
Modifying and uprating old cars is an industry that has grown up in response to misguided demand IMHO, presumably driven by the sort of people who are now buying old Jaguars, etc, without any real understanding of what they are about.
Which is, of course, part of the reason that many of these 'upgrades' may be of questionable quality or effectiveness.
Rant over (for now).
mikey77 said:
Why modify? (Ducks below the parapet...)
What's wrong with originality? The MkII didn't need power steering when it was new and it doesn't need it now, unless you are physically disabled - in which case maybe you should think of driving something else. Doesn't need a 5-speed gearbox or uprated brakes either. It is what it is. It isn't a motor 40-odd years old that should be expected to drive like a Ford Focus and anyone who owns one should be prepared to drive/use it with that in mind. I had no problems. And my old Wolseley 16/60 had standard crap drum brakes but I managed to drive it around the UK, deriving great enjoyment and without bumping into anything else.
In the same vein, why drop a twin-cam Fiat/Lancia motor into a Morris Minor? If you don't like the way a Minor does things then buy a b****y Lancia!
Modifying and uprating old cars is an industry that has grown up in response to misguided demand IMHO, presumably driven by the sort of people who are now buying old Jaguars, etc, without any real understanding of what they are about.
Which is, of course, part of the reason that many of these 'upgrades' may be of questionable quality or effectiveness.
Rant over (for now).
Nothing wrong with originality, but nothing wrong with modifications either.What's wrong with originality? The MkII didn't need power steering when it was new and it doesn't need it now, unless you are physically disabled - in which case maybe you should think of driving something else. Doesn't need a 5-speed gearbox or uprated brakes either. It is what it is. It isn't a motor 40-odd years old that should be expected to drive like a Ford Focus and anyone who owns one should be prepared to drive/use it with that in mind. I had no problems. And my old Wolseley 16/60 had standard crap drum brakes but I managed to drive it around the UK, deriving great enjoyment and without bumping into anything else.
In the same vein, why drop a twin-cam Fiat/Lancia motor into a Morris Minor? If you don't like the way a Minor does things then buy a b****y Lancia!
Modifying and uprating old cars is an industry that has grown up in response to misguided demand IMHO, presumably driven by the sort of people who are now buying old Jaguars, etc, without any real understanding of what they are about.
Which is, of course, part of the reason that many of these 'upgrades' may be of questionable quality or effectiveness.
Rant over (for now).
Do you still drive your old wolseley 16/60 with it's crap drum brakes ? Do you take it continental touring or cruise it on the motorway ? If so let me know when you're on the road so I can keep a safe distance
Driving conditions have changed a lot in the last 40 years and in my opinion the current purpose of upgrades is to make the car safer and more reliable in regular use.
I can agree with you that this is sometimes taken too far and I'm not in favour of engine transplants for example , but that's up to the individual.
I assume you wrote the same letter to Bill Boddy in Motorsport 40+ years ago - because that's when they started modifying and upgrading Mk 2 Jaguars ?
Modifying, improving, upgrading - is as old as the motor car itself.
gr88 said:
its all about cost . would you pay the cost of a properly developed part ?
no you bought cheap and got what you deserved !
the mark 2 doesnt need power steering...........
That's a bit personal - and how do you know what I've bought ?no you bought cheap and got what you deserved !
the mark 2 doesnt need power steering...........
The mk2 benefits from power steering and it was an option in period.
Wouldn't be the first time old gr88 stumbles into a thread like an oaf ...
With a car modified a bit from standard I've only really bought tried and tested upgrades - from recognised companies who have sold 1000s in the US.
Early on, these parts did go through a fair bit of R&D, normally with the initial customers and a few guinea pigs but the parts I've got have themselves been improved and upgraded over the years - and are available cheaper (but from less proven companies) ... you pays your money etc.
Why people are so set FOR or AGAINST modifying away from standard surprises me - my last Mustang was bog standard and was no more than adequate to drive on a curvy twisty road at any sort of speed. Why shouldn't I try and imrove what I have to more modern standards? For me that's more enjoyable - I don't see everyone rushing to take their classic to the shops every day instead of the Focus and there's a reason for that.
With a car modified a bit from standard I've only really bought tried and tested upgrades - from recognised companies who have sold 1000s in the US.
Early on, these parts did go through a fair bit of R&D, normally with the initial customers and a few guinea pigs but the parts I've got have themselves been improved and upgraded over the years - and are available cheaper (but from less proven companies) ... you pays your money etc.
Why people are so set FOR or AGAINST modifying away from standard surprises me - my last Mustang was bog standard and was no more than adequate to drive on a curvy twisty road at any sort of speed. Why shouldn't I try and imrove what I have to more modern standards? For me that's more enjoyable - I don't see everyone rushing to take their classic to the shops every day instead of the Focus and there's a reason for that.
garagewidow said:
i'm with mph and mikeyT,..
modify,modify and modify again...
looking at the same old line up of standard classics at shows can get a bit boring.
i like to see peoples enginuity,the flip side of classic ownership
I'm with you to an extent, but I believe modifying can be an extremely personal/individual thing, hence why the umbrella term "modified" can be met with a frosty reception by certain parties. Personally I think PAS on a Mk 2 would increase the usability of it and make it a much less tiring drive, good for distance driving.modify,modify and modify again...
looking at the same old line up of standard classics at shows can get a bit boring.
i like to see peoples enginuity,the flip side of classic ownership
Nothing wrong with modifing a classic, nothing at all once it's done correctly. I'd reckon a MkII Jag would be a far better classic proposition with PAS, better brakes, 5sp box, Electronic ignition, Electric rad fan etc,etc. With mods like those all it will is encourage one to use the car more (everywhere), cause less stain on the engine & increase mpg. Makes a lot of sense to me.
As for the 16/60 and drum brakes................
As for the 16/60 and drum brakes................
Johnboy Mac said:
Nothing wrong with modifing a classic, nothing at all once it's done correctly. I'd reckon a MkII Jag would be a far better classic proposition with PAS, better brakes, 5sp box, Electronic ignition, Electric rad fan etc,etc. With mods like those all it will is encourage one to use the car more (everywhere), cause less stain on the engine & increase mpg. Makes a lot of sense to me.
As for the 16/60 and drum brakes................
Crikey, you're up late Johnboy! Or is it up early, like me?As for the 16/60 and drum brakes................
On the subject of modifications to classics, I see nowt wrong with it, so long as it is done sympathetically and to a proper standard. I am currently modifying my '67 Daimler 250 V8 manual to take fuel injection, a modern(ish) 5-speed box plus some brake and suspension mods. This isn't in a quest for massive power and performance increases but simply to make the car more economic (hopefully) and a bit more perky, safe and driveable in today's world. I started a very productive thread on this subject a couple of years ago and learned much from PH contributors.
On the subject of Wolseleys, by coincidence I am just about to set off on a long journey (hence being up so early!) to pick up a Wolseley 15/50 from the class of 1957! It looks to be a very original and solid old bus but currently suffers from a rattley crank. Well, I have just bought a 28,000 mile MGB engine and I think you can guess what might happen next. With regard to brakes, I seem to remember that MGA discs might fit this baby, if I can find any!
Over 10 years ago I made a set of vented brakes for my Dolly Sprint using Sierra discs and calipers plus a bracket that as an engineer I made myself. My car went from a useless stopping thing that could only do 2 laps of Castle Combe before serious brake fade set in to a car that soaked up braking with no fade no matter how many laps.
Quickly 10 Dolly owners wanted a set too and here as I write I have sent brake kits to USA,NZ,Italy,Austria,Germany,Holland,Scotland as well as England as over 70 kits have been made.
If Triumphs had developed the brakes correctly in the first place instead of using a 1300 55 bhp slow Toledo's set to stop a near 120 mph 127 bhp sports saloon, I would not have had to do it.
Quickly 10 Dolly owners wanted a set too and here as I write I have sent brake kits to USA,NZ,Italy,Austria,Germany,Holland,Scotland as well as England as over 70 kits have been made.
If Triumphs had developed the brakes correctly in the first place instead of using a 1300 55 bhp slow Toledo's set to stop a near 120 mph 127 bhp sports saloon, I would not have had to do it.
Sadly I don't have the old 16/60 any more but if I did you'd have nothing to worry about if you came across me on the road - I always drove it within its limitations. That's what having an old car is about, isn't it? The experience of the way things used to be and the satisfaction of driving effectively within those limitations? Otherwise, drive a Fiesta...
My pal's daily drive is a 1929 Austin 16, all original. No power steering, brake servo, discs, twin-cam engine, etc, etc. He likes it like that and isn't a nuisance to anyone else.
My pal's daily drive is a 1929 Austin 16, all original. No power steering, brake servo, discs, twin-cam engine, etc, etc. He likes it like that and isn't a nuisance to anyone else.
mikey77 said:
My pal's daily drive is a 1929 Austin 16, all original. No power steering, brake servo, discs, twin-cam engine, etc, etc. He likes it like that and isn't a nuisance to anyone else.
But he's not doing a 50-mile round commute in it I bet! (in winter)Driving your Wolseley within its limitations is fine but for travelling on a decent fast road nowadays if short for time, it's best achieved with a more modern car obviously - hence why a lot of people drive Euroboxes.
No one seems to have mentioned the electric PAS option yet. Apparently simple to fit, doesn't modify the suspension, and I believe isn't that dear. Now I'm only talking from hearsay, but what I have heard is very positive.
On the subject of modifications, I am well known as a fully paid-up member of the Luddites, but I am calming with age. It appears that many people want a classic car without the inconveniences of a classic, so power steering, five speed box, four pot calipers et al are now acceptable. Indeed, I know of one place that have a shed-full of Moss boxes because no buyer of their cars could remember how to double-declutch. So, if it keeps a car alive, and it will be used and driven with gusto, why not have power steering? Many people forget that the car in question was designed for crossplies, not radials, and I can well vouch for the difference in the input needed especially at rest.
On the subject of modifications, I am well known as a fully paid-up member of the Luddites, but I am calming with age. It appears that many people want a classic car without the inconveniences of a classic, so power steering, five speed box, four pot calipers et al are now acceptable. Indeed, I know of one place that have a shed-full of Moss boxes because no buyer of their cars could remember how to double-declutch. So, if it keeps a car alive, and it will be used and driven with gusto, why not have power steering? Many people forget that the car in question was designed for crossplies, not radials, and I can well vouch for the difference in the input needed especially at rest.
mikey77 said:
Sadly I don't have the old 16/60 any more but if I did you'd have nothing to worry about if you came across me on the road - I always drove it within its limitations. That's what having an old car is about, isn't it? The experience of the way things used to be and the satisfaction of driving effectively within those limitations? Otherwise, drive a Fiesta...
My pal's daily drive is a 1929 Austin 16, all original. No power steering, brake servo, discs, twin-cam engine, etc, etc. He likes it like that and isn't a nuisance to anyone else.
We'll have to agree to disagree.My pal's daily drive is a 1929 Austin 16, all original. No power steering, brake servo, discs, twin-cam engine, etc, etc. He likes it like that and isn't a nuisance to anyone else.
I get almost no satisfaction from driving modern cars whatever they are. I like to use my classics and I've been over to France in three different cars in the last eighteen months or so.
The Mk 2 hasn't made the journey yet but I'm hoping to take it early next year. The only modification I've made so far is to fit power steering.
To answer your original question. No I'm not physically disabled but the Mk2 steering is very vague and was criticised in period - having 4.5 turns lock to lock.
You may be aware of the Coombs Mk2 Jaguars which were and are highly prized. Did they modify the steering ? No prizes given.
I'm also intending to upgrade the wipers as they are very poor on the Mk 2 and every time I go to France it rains heavily. Not fun when you are on the main routes at 80mph !
The car will not drive in any way like a new Fiesta and I think the modifications will enhance the character that a Mk2 has.
If I lived in rural France or only took the car to local shows I wouldn't bother with any modifications. But I don't.
dave de roxby said:
Crikey, you're up late Johnboy! Or is it up early, like me?
On the subject of modifications to classics, I see nowt wrong with it, so long as it is done sympathetically and to a proper standard. I am currently modifying my '67 Daimler 250 V8 manual to take fuel injection, a modern(ish) 5-speed box plus some brake and suspension mods. This isn't in a quest for massive power and performance increases but simply to make the car more economic (hopefully) and a bit more perky, safe and driveable in today's world.
Yes Dave, I was up too bloody early!On the subject of modifications to classics, I see nowt wrong with it, so long as it is done sympathetically and to a proper standard. I am currently modifying my '67 Daimler 250 V8 manual to take fuel injection, a modern(ish) 5-speed box plus some brake and suspension mods. This isn't in a quest for massive power and performance increases but simply to make the car more economic (hopefully) and a bit more perky, safe and driveable in today's world.
I'd go along with fitting EFI also, makes a lot of sense, making a good old car better, even if it gives some of the old fogies in the club a near heart attact! .
Anyway, always easy to refit the carbs if required for some reason.
Edited by Johnboy Mac on Monday 5th September 08:50
Agree totally with MPH...... An Original Can Allways be Improved on !!
The E Type was built to a Price , ( The Cheapest Shocks ( Girling ) that Lyons could buy, but whack a set of Konis on and What a difference .
Driving and road conditions have changed vastly since the MK2 was the Villains Choice of Get Away Car. Many people buying into Our Hobby now, simply won't put up with antiquated brakes, Slow , heavy steering and poor suspension. Cars like Beachams Modified MK2 and Orhers have proved a Big hit with Well heeled buyers, exactly the type of buyer that the Classic Scene needs .
STD is fine, if thats what you want, but Discretely Modified For me !
The E Type was built to a Price , ( The Cheapest Shocks ( Girling ) that Lyons could buy, but whack a set of Konis on and What a difference .
Driving and road conditions have changed vastly since the MK2 was the Villains Choice of Get Away Car. Many people buying into Our Hobby now, simply won't put up with antiquated brakes, Slow , heavy steering and poor suspension. Cars like Beachams Modified MK2 and Orhers have proved a Big hit with Well heeled buyers, exactly the type of buyer that the Classic Scene needs .
STD is fine, if thats what you want, but Discretely Modified For me !
mph said:
We'll have to agree to disagree.
I get almost no satisfaction from driving modern cars whatever they are. I like to use my classics and I've been over to France in three different cars in the last eighteen months or so.
The Mk 2 hasn't made the journey yet but I'm hoping to take it early next year. The only modification I've made so far is to fit power steering.
To answer your original question. No I'm not physically disabled but the Mk2 steering is very vague and was criticised in period - having 4.5 turns lock to lock.
You may be aware of the Coombs Mk2 Jaguars which were and are highly prized. Did they modify the steering ? No prizes given.
I'm also intending to upgrade the wipers as they are very poor on the Mk 2 and every time I go to France it rains heavily. Not fun when you are on the main routes at 80mph !
The car will not drive in any way like a new Fiesta and I think the modifications will enhance the character that a Mk2 has.
If I lived in rural France or only took the car to local shows I wouldn't bother with any modifications. But I don't.
I agree with you on the wipers, I've put the CMC kit (new gears, motor and connections) on mine with a variable delay. It works a treat, no more juddering and either too fast or too slow problems.I get almost no satisfaction from driving modern cars whatever they are. I like to use my classics and I've been over to France in three different cars in the last eighteen months or so.
The Mk 2 hasn't made the journey yet but I'm hoping to take it early next year. The only modification I've made so far is to fit power steering.
To answer your original question. No I'm not physically disabled but the Mk2 steering is very vague and was criticised in period - having 4.5 turns lock to lock.
You may be aware of the Coombs Mk2 Jaguars which were and are highly prized. Did they modify the steering ? No prizes given.
I'm also intending to upgrade the wipers as they are very poor on the Mk 2 and every time I go to France it rains heavily. Not fun when you are on the main routes at 80mph !
The car will not drive in any way like a new Fiesta and I think the modifications will enhance the character that a Mk2 has.
If I lived in rural France or only took the car to local shows I wouldn't bother with any modifications. But I don't.
With regard to power steering you should avoid the rack and pinion conversions most I've heard of disrupt the geometry. Mines got the original Jaguar option. I had the geometry set up by Paul Roach the overall effect is, dare I say, modern.
mph said:
I'm also intending to upgrade the wipers as they are very poor on the Mk 2 and every time I go to France it rains heavily.
Make sure they wipe at two passes per second then! Officially confirmed as the worst summer since 1946 and this weekend was the 24 hour kart race. The weather was so miserable that of 35 starters only five finished. Did Jaguar ever make an Ark?Back on topic, I've driven an Eagle E-type and frankly it is very well able to cope with modern-day traffic conditions, and is so easy to drive. I can well understand why Henry is so booked out with work because you have to all intents and purposes a modern car with the looks of a classic. If that's your thing, well so be it and I agree that the wipers are more than inadequate, they are downright dangerous in modern traffic conditions. Yesterday the E-type was parked under a motorway bridge for five minutes, so heavy was the rain. We couldn't see. And an intermittent wipe would be a boon too.
Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff