Help me compile the real definitive list of best ever cars
Discussion
You know all those books, the 100 sexiest cars, 501 must drive cars etc, I have a (slight) problem with them because they always seem to be just one person's opinion. Isn't it time petrolheads en masse decided the real winners?
With your help, I want to turn one person’s opinion into 100s', even 1000s' and that surely is a fairer reflection of what really constitutes the best. Decided by enthusiasts for enthusiasts.
Here’s how I am going to go about it. To try and keep it as simple as possible and avoid just a disconnected list of random cars, I am going to break it into five categories.
All you have to do is select your top five (from any era) in any or all categories with your first choice receiving 25 points, your runner-up 20 and so on until your fifth choice receives five points. If you want to add some brief explanatory notes for your choices, that would be better still.
Here are the categories, with no date restrictions at all – it can be anything from the Benz Patent Motorwagen of 1886 to whatever potent little sexbomb Kia is launching this week:
Best drivers’ car
Most beautiful car
Most important car
Best all-rounder (including practicality!)
Your dream car (money no object)
And that’s it. Please share you opinions and urge all your petrolhead friends, family, acquaintances and pets to share theirs, too. The more the better, and the more balanced and true the results.
You can post them here, on PH or C&SC’s Facebook or Google+ pages, or e-mail them to me at james.elliott@haymarket.com and I will collate all the scores.
If it takes off, I might even turn the results into a book!
With your help, I want to turn one person’s opinion into 100s', even 1000s' and that surely is a fairer reflection of what really constitutes the best. Decided by enthusiasts for enthusiasts.
Here’s how I am going to go about it. To try and keep it as simple as possible and avoid just a disconnected list of random cars, I am going to break it into five categories.
All you have to do is select your top five (from any era) in any or all categories with your first choice receiving 25 points, your runner-up 20 and so on until your fifth choice receives five points. If you want to add some brief explanatory notes for your choices, that would be better still.
Here are the categories, with no date restrictions at all – it can be anything from the Benz Patent Motorwagen of 1886 to whatever potent little sexbomb Kia is launching this week:
Best drivers’ car
Most beautiful car
Most important car
Best all-rounder (including practicality!)
Your dream car (money no object)
And that’s it. Please share you opinions and urge all your petrolhead friends, family, acquaintances and pets to share theirs, too. The more the better, and the more balanced and true the results.
You can post them here, on PH or C&SC’s Facebook or Google+ pages, or e-mail them to me at james.elliott@haymarket.com and I will collate all the scores.
If it takes off, I might even turn the results into a book!
Ok James, i'll bite:
Drivers
BMW E30 M3
Mk1 Works Mini/Austin Cooper
Porsche 911 (993) Carrera 2
Ferrari 360 CS
Aston Martin DB2/4 DHC
Beautiful
Citroen DS
Lamborghini Miura
Alpine A110
Jaguar E Type S1
Ferrari 250 GT California
Important
Renault Espace
VW Beetle
Smart 4/2
Audi Quattro
Toyota Prius
Best all-rounder
Range Rover L322
BMW 3 Series
Mercedes S Class
Aston Martin DB5
BMW E39 M5
Your dream car
Mercedes 300SL Gullwing
Dodge Challenger
Porsche 959
Ferrari 330 GTC
Rolls Royce Phantom Drophead Coupe
My ten penneth:
Drivers
Porsche 911 2.7 Carrera RS
Lotus 7 S2
Beautiful
Citroen DS
Jaguar E Type S1
Ferrari 250 GT SWB
Important
Renault Espace
VW Beetle
Audi Quattro
Best all-rounder
Mercedes 190e (poss 2.5-16v variant)
Your dream car(s)
1963 1/2 Ford Galaxie 500 'R Code'
1963 Lotus Cortina Mk 1
Lola T70 Mk3b
Porsche 917K
Porsche 908
Drivers
Porsche 911 2.7 Carrera RS
Lotus 7 S2
Beautiful
Citroen DS
Jaguar E Type S1
Ferrari 250 GT SWB
Important
Renault Espace
VW Beetle
Audi Quattro
Best all-rounder
Mercedes 190e (poss 2.5-16v variant)
Your dream car(s)
1963 1/2 Ford Galaxie 500 'R Code'
1963 Lotus Cortina Mk 1
Lola T70 Mk3b
Porsche 917K
Porsche 908
Best drivers’ car
Porsche 911 [any air cooled post SWB model]
Most beautiful car
Jaguar XKSS
Citroen DS Decapotable
1933 24 Litre Napier Railton [my knees wobble whenever I'm next to this
]
Bugatti Type 35 [the most elegant in race engineering design]
Facel Vega HK500
Most important car
Maclaren F1 [remarkable concept, design, materials, design team, proven result!]
1933 24 Litre Napier Railton
Citroen 2CV
Porsche 911 [any air cooled model]
MGB [bringing low cost fun sporting motoring to mass market]
Best all-rounder (including practicality!)
Porsche 911 [any air cooled model]
VW Golf MKII GTi [8V or 16V]
Jaguar XKSS
Citroen 2CV
Range Rover [any non sport model]
Your dream car (money no object)
Aston Martin DBR1
BRM V16
Jaguar XKSS
Jaguar SS100
1933 24 Litre Napier Railton
Porsche 911 [any air cooled post SWB model]
Most beautiful car
Jaguar XKSS
Citroen DS Decapotable
1933 24 Litre Napier Railton [my knees wobble whenever I'm next to this
]Bugatti Type 35 [the most elegant in race engineering design]
Facel Vega HK500
Most important car
Maclaren F1 [remarkable concept, design, materials, design team, proven result!]
1933 24 Litre Napier Railton
Citroen 2CV
Porsche 911 [any air cooled model]
MGB [bringing low cost fun sporting motoring to mass market]
Best all-rounder (including practicality!)
Porsche 911 [any air cooled model]
VW Golf MKII GTi [8V or 16V]
Jaguar XKSS
Citroen 2CV
Range Rover [any non sport model]
Your dream car (money no object)
Aston Martin DBR1
BRM V16
Jaguar XKSS
Jaguar SS100
1933 24 Litre Napier Railton
Keeping my list short
Drivers
Mk1 Works Mini/Austin Cooper S 1275: Just fun on wheels
Morgan Aero: Beautiful quick glorious shapely
Beautiful
Jaguar E Type S1: It is
Important
Morris Mini Minor 1959: Defined all later mass car production
Best All-Rounder
Range Rover Sport: Magnificent beast
Your Dream Car
Flat Floor 3.8 lightweight Jaguar E type Drophead: Never bettered
Drivers
Mk1 Works Mini/Austin Cooper S 1275: Just fun on wheels
Morgan Aero: Beautiful quick glorious shapely
Beautiful
Jaguar E Type S1: It is
Important
Morris Mini Minor 1959: Defined all later mass car production
Best All-Rounder
Range Rover Sport: Magnificent beast
Your Dream Car
Flat Floor 3.8 lightweight Jaguar E type Drophead: Never bettered
OK, this seems like a topic just designed to attract flame bait :-)
Weren't similar concepts already on the market in the US? Hence Chrysler UK's interest in developing a similar style vehicle, but before it came out, Chrysler gave up on Europe and the remains were sold to PSA, who didn't want the "Espace" and it ended up at Renault. I'm not saying its not a great car, I just didn't think it was the first of any particular type. Or have I missed something?
benjj said:
Important
Renault Espace
So in what way is the Espace as "important" car?Renault Espace
Weren't similar concepts already on the market in the US? Hence Chrysler UK's interest in developing a similar style vehicle, but before it came out, Chrysler gave up on Europe and the remains were sold to PSA, who didn't want the "Espace" and it ended up at Renault. I'm not saying its not a great car, I just didn't think it was the first of any particular type. Or have I missed something?
a8hex said:
So in what way is the Espace as "important" car?
Weren't similar concepts already on the market in the US? Hence Chrysler UK's interest in developing a similar style vehicle, but before it came out, Chrysler gave up on Europe and the remains were sold to PSA, who didn't want the "Espace" and it ended up at Renault. I'm not saying its not a great car, I just didn't think it was the first of any particular type. Or have I missed something?
It was the first one that was actually good! The US had 'minivans' I agree but they were all cack. The Espace delivered car(ish) handling and performance and pioneered the genre in Europe. Plus it was a very funky car in my eyes. The original almost looked like a Countach that had been blown up with a bicycle pump (ok, this is pushing it a bit I appreciate...)Weren't similar concepts already on the market in the US? Hence Chrysler UK's interest in developing a similar style vehicle, but before it came out, Chrysler gave up on Europe and the remains were sold to PSA, who didn't want the "Espace" and it ended up at Renault. I'm not saying its not a great car, I just didn't think it was the first of any particular type. Or have I missed something?
Its my list though and I rate it highly. Always have.
Drivers - Golf GTi Mk1 1.8
Beautiful - Ferrari Daytona
Important - Mini, but also, from before then, all the early small Austins/Morrises/Hillmans/Fords, etc going back to the 1930s.
All Round - Range-Rover (but all-round could mean anything!!!)
DreamCar - dream-ownership-car-choice changes all the time. If its fantasy-dream-cars then there are lots of 60s/70s concept cars.
Beautiful - Ferrari Daytona
Important - Mini, but also, from before then, all the early small Austins/Morrises/Hillmans/Fords, etc going back to the 1930s.
All Round - Range-Rover (but all-round could mean anything!!!)
DreamCar - dream-ownership-car-choice changes all the time. If its fantasy-dream-cars then there are lots of 60s/70s concept cars.
benjj said:
a8hex said:
So in what way is the Espace as "important" car?
Weren't similar concepts already on the market in the US? Hence Chrysler UK's interest in developing a similar style vehicle, but before it came out, Chrysler gave up on Europe and the remains were sold to PSA, who didn't want the "Espace" and it ended up at Renault. I'm not saying its not a great car, I just didn't think it was the first of any particular type. Or have I missed something?
It was the first one that was actually good! The US had 'minivans' I agree but they were all cack. The Espace delivered car(ish) handling and performance and pioneered the genre in Europe. Plus it was a very funky car in my eyes. The original almost looked like a Countach that had been blown up with a bicycle pump (ok, this is pushing it a bit I appreciate...)Weren't similar concepts already on the market in the US? Hence Chrysler UK's interest in developing a similar style vehicle, but before it came out, Chrysler gave up on Europe and the remains were sold to PSA, who didn't want the "Espace" and it ended up at Renault. I'm not saying its not a great car, I just didn't think it was the first of any particular type. Or have I missed something?
Its my list though and I rate it highly. Always have.
I think we're ignoring the original intent of James Elliott here, and turning the thread into a rambling discussion, however interesting that might be.
If we don't stick to his remit, then he'll never be able to collate the information he needs. Five in each category. Reasoning if you want, but not compulsory.
If we don't stick to his remit, then he'll never be able to collate the information he needs. Five in each category. Reasoning if you want, but not compulsory.
a8hex said:
I admire Renault for having the balls to finish off the development and bring it to market. So many car firm's accountants would have just said "Non" or perhaps "Non Non Non" which is I guess what happened at PSA.
I'm glad we both agree that I'm right 
So come on, get your list up and help a chap out.
nicanary said:
I think we're ignoring the original intent of James Elliott here, and turning the thread into a rambling discussion, however interesting that might be.
If we don't stick to his remit, then he'll never be able to collate the information he needs. Five in each category. Reasoning if you want, but not compulsory.
Sorry to be a party pooper but:If we don't stick to his remit, then he'll never be able to collate the information he needs. Five in each category. Reasoning if you want, but not compulsory.
Lets be totally honest here, any list that anyone comes up with is always going to be subjective, it doesn't matter who supplies the answers.
In truth, you can only ever have your own personal list because there is no definitive answer. The subject matter is just too diversified.
In the case of the OP, all he is going to end up with is a Pistonheads list of best cars, which will be no different in concept to anyone else's list.
It will be based on an average of answers, and an answer based on an average cannot be definitive because it is not agreed upon without exception!
General car fanatics will have a different opinion to designers, who will have a different opinion to race car drivers, who will have a different opinion to engineers etc., etc.
British car nuts will have a different opinion to American car fans, who will have a different opinion to Japanese car fan etc.,etc.
Look at what has happened this week in the movie world. For years, the so called "movie experts" have declared "Citizen Kane" to be the greatest movie ever made, beating "Vertigo".
This week however, the same "experts" have declared "Vertigo" as the greatest film ever made!
How?
Has Vertigo suddenly changed and become a better film?
Has "Citizen Kane" suddenly changed and become a worse film?
The answer is neither: The change has been made because tastes change, opinions change and the list adapts accordingly.
I state again: There can be no definitive list because opinions will always vary!
To be definitive, absolutely everyone would have to agree to the result and that is never going to happen!
Or garner opinions from many enthusiasts and look for trends etc. Certainly an intersting project as it records opinion of said enthusiasts rather than those of a few who may or may not be experts.
Mine would be:
Drivers car- E30 M3
Beautiful- Alfa 8c
Important- 3 series BMW
Best all rounder- Merc SL
Dream car- Ferrari 250LM
Mine would be:
Drivers car- E30 M3
Beautiful- Alfa 8c
Important- 3 series BMW
Best all rounder- Merc SL
Dream car- Ferrari 250LM
Having already given my personal lost I suppose there are really only four candidates for the "Best ever car" title.
By that I mean the most influential car upon the efforts other designers and manufacturers as they strove to achieve the same success. Beauty being so subjective and very much in the eye of the beholder.
Clearly the first candidate must be the original car design by Otto Daimler and Carl Benz. From that everything followed with automobiles.
The second candidate must be the Model T Ford. Mass production as we know it was the brainchild of Henry Ford with that car. Every other manufacturer followed the example.
The third candidate is probably the Volkswagen Beetle which was a wonder in its time designed by Ferdinand Porsche. Something of a blind alley in design terms the layout has virtually disappeared because of the FWD dominance.
Finally we come to the Issigonis Mini. Which IMO has been the most influential approach to post WWII car design and layout, FWD is de rigueur in the majority of car production today.
Which was the most influential design and had the greatest effect on the rest of the industry? And therefore the best ever car?
A toss up IMO between Benz and Daimler and Issigonis IMO. Still a largely unrecognised genius, Issigionis and the Mini is my choice. Possibly because I own five still. And several other Mini based cars including a Mini Marcos. two Midas's and a few others. I prefer to think that it is clear objective thinking. Possibly?
By that I mean the most influential car upon the efforts other designers and manufacturers as they strove to achieve the same success. Beauty being so subjective and very much in the eye of the beholder.
Clearly the first candidate must be the original car design by Otto Daimler and Carl Benz. From that everything followed with automobiles.
The second candidate must be the Model T Ford. Mass production as we know it was the brainchild of Henry Ford with that car. Every other manufacturer followed the example.
The third candidate is probably the Volkswagen Beetle which was a wonder in its time designed by Ferdinand Porsche. Something of a blind alley in design terms the layout has virtually disappeared because of the FWD dominance.
Finally we come to the Issigonis Mini. Which IMO has been the most influential approach to post WWII car design and layout, FWD is de rigueur in the majority of car production today.
Which was the most influential design and had the greatest effect on the rest of the industry? And therefore the best ever car?
A toss up IMO between Benz and Daimler and Issigonis IMO. Still a largely unrecognised genius, Issigionis and the Mini is my choice. Possibly because I own five still. And several other Mini based cars including a Mini Marcos. two Midas's and a few others. I prefer to think that it is clear objective thinking. Possibly?
nicanary said:
I think we're ignoring the original intent of James Elliott here, and turning the thread into a rambling discussion, however interesting that might be.
If we don't stick to his remit, then he'll never be able to collate the information he needs. Five in each category. Reasoning if you want, but not compulsory.
On the contrary, I love the debate. I'm already going to have to collate it from so many different sources that it makes no difference. I'm looking forward to it.If we don't stick to his remit, then he'll never be able to collate the information he needs. Five in each category. Reasoning if you want, but not compulsory.
More contributions please! Lots more.
4rephill said:
Sorry to be a party pooper but:
Lets be totally honest here, any list that anyone comes up with is always going to be subjective, it doesn't matter who supplies the answers.
In truth, you can only ever have your own personal list because there is no definitive answer. The subject matter is just too diversified.
True, and precisely why I decided to give this a go: the more personal lists that are combined, the more likely you are to come up with any sort of consensus. Still just a guide, but better informed than just one person's personal opinion, which is usually the case.Lets be totally honest here, any list that anyone comes up with is always going to be subjective, it doesn't matter who supplies the answers.
In truth, you can only ever have your own personal list because there is no definitive answer. The subject matter is just too diversified.
4rephill said:
In the case of the OP, all he is going to end up with is a Pistonheads list of best cars, which will be no different in concept to anyone else's list.
It will be based on an average of answers, and an answer based on an average cannot be definitive because it is not agreed upon without exception!
General car fanatics will have a different opinion to designers, who will have a different opinion to race car drivers, who will have a different opinion to engineers etc., etc.
4rephill said:
I state again: There can be no definitive list because opinions will always vary!
To be definitive, absolutely everyone would have to agree to the result and that is never going to happen!
And true agin, but it's fun thinking about it and debating it isn't it? And if something does/can come of it, all the better.To be definitive, absolutely everyone would have to agree to the result and that is never going to happen!
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