Alfa GT Junior 1600 - What to look out for?
Discussion
Hello all,
A friend is interested in a 70s Alfa 105 1600, and has asked me to go with him to have a look at one.
From all I have read so far (like most), rust is the killer. The particular car he is interested in has a massive history file from one long owner and then a recent respray, with no photos or record of it. That is a bit worrying to me, as you would think any enthusiast owner would take photo or two. All in all it looks really clean and supposedly goes really well, but I thought I would tap the cerebellum of the knowledgable Pistonheads community before I head down there, to see if any of you could help out with areas to be aware of and any possible hidden things to look at.
Thanks in advance.
Richie
A friend is interested in a 70s Alfa 105 1600, and has asked me to go with him to have a look at one.
From all I have read so far (like most), rust is the killer. The particular car he is interested in has a massive history file from one long owner and then a recent respray, with no photos or record of it. That is a bit worrying to me, as you would think any enthusiast owner would take photo or two. All in all it looks really clean and supposedly goes really well, but I thought I would tap the cerebellum of the knowledgable Pistonheads community before I head down there, to see if any of you could help out with areas to be aware of and any possible hidden things to look at.
Thanks in advance.
Richie
If it's on the net a link to the Car would help, although I appreciate you might not want to be gazumped...
There is a fairly decent book written by Keith Booker and published by Veloce which would be worth getting, it's only about 10 quid and covers most points. But a quick run down of areas to look for rot;
Sills, these are three part and can rust damage can be covered over by just doing the outer, check the inner from underneath.
Floors, both sides, but the passenger side tends to be worst.
Chassis rails under the front floor pans. Also chassis rail near the steering box it can crack due to stressing.
Rear trailing arm mounts
Front cross member under radiator, especially where the front ARB connects
Spring pans (easy fix that)
Top inner front suspension mounts, easy to see on the left side, but hidden under the carbs on the right side.
Boot floor and wheel well
Door bottoms
Edge of the boot lid
Scuttle area, difficult to see, but look for evidence of water leaks bej=hind the dash onto the floors.
Mechanically they are very reliable, but the brakes can be dodgy, check if it's dual circuit or single, count the servo's. the dual circuit M//C is expensive to replace.
Look for play in the steering box, this ruins the steering feel, but worn track rod ends (there are 6 of them) can cause the same symptoms so check those if there is play.
Electrics... well it's Italian so..., lots of components are not made particularly well, column stalks perhaps being one which can cause most problems, check the side lights come on with the first rotation of the big stalk, if they don't the rears won't come on either. Both my Cars do this and I've bypassed it.
Sounds worse than it is to be honest, they are well worth the effort though.
There is a fairly decent book written by Keith Booker and published by Veloce which would be worth getting, it's only about 10 quid and covers most points. But a quick run down of areas to look for rot;
Sills, these are three part and can rust damage can be covered over by just doing the outer, check the inner from underneath.
Floors, both sides, but the passenger side tends to be worst.
Chassis rails under the front floor pans. Also chassis rail near the steering box it can crack due to stressing.
Rear trailing arm mounts
Front cross member under radiator, especially where the front ARB connects
Spring pans (easy fix that)
Top inner front suspension mounts, easy to see on the left side, but hidden under the carbs on the right side.
Boot floor and wheel well
Door bottoms
Edge of the boot lid
Scuttle area, difficult to see, but look for evidence of water leaks bej=hind the dash onto the floors.
Mechanically they are very reliable, but the brakes can be dodgy, check if it's dual circuit or single, count the servo's. the dual circuit M//C is expensive to replace.
Look for play in the steering box, this ruins the steering feel, but worn track rod ends (there are 6 of them) can cause the same symptoms so check those if there is play.
Electrics... well it's Italian so..., lots of components are not made particularly well, column stalks perhaps being one which can cause most problems, check the side lights come on with the first rotation of the big stalk, if they don't the rears won't come on either. Both my Cars do this and I've bypassed it.
Sounds worse than it is to be honest, they are well worth the effort though.
A 1969 Mk1 1750GTV on momo vega's and in a funky 60's colour (say yellow ochre) is the dogs.
They have the best detailing. Best bumpers. Best grille. Best badges. Oh and the best bit? the BEST interior! the seats are mindblowing! when new the earlier 105's had better quality carpets and generally were nicer detailed. As in instruments.
Whilst the 200GTV is quicker and has a LSD they pretty much peaked in the 1750 mk1.
Shame they fell to utter pieces in their period in months! They are complete rot boxes and need careful inspection. They rot EVERYWHERE. I've seen some slightly crappy but sound Sth African imports. Alfa had a CKD plant in Zimbabwe. I had a Giulia Super from there.
What makes me laugh is eggheads saying they were no worse than their rivals for corrosion. NEVER! The 2002TII, Ford Escort RS's and Datsun Z cars never went to iron oxide quite like an Alfa!
But utterly great cars. The Bertone is a baby Ferrari. In fact compare to Ferraris 70's and 80's efforts I think I'd take a 105 GTA. But that's another story..!
Footnote. I had a few original Bertones in the 80's and one of the best bits is the smell! They had a funny plastic pong. But you knew you were home in a OG car. Restored machines lose things like that.
They have the best detailing. Best bumpers. Best grille. Best badges. Oh and the best bit? the BEST interior! the seats are mindblowing! when new the earlier 105's had better quality carpets and generally were nicer detailed. As in instruments.
Whilst the 200GTV is quicker and has a LSD they pretty much peaked in the 1750 mk1.
Shame they fell to utter pieces in their period in months! They are complete rot boxes and need careful inspection. They rot EVERYWHERE. I've seen some slightly crappy but sound Sth African imports. Alfa had a CKD plant in Zimbabwe. I had a Giulia Super from there.
What makes me laugh is eggheads saying they were no worse than their rivals for corrosion. NEVER! The 2002TII, Ford Escort RS's and Datsun Z cars never went to iron oxide quite like an Alfa!
But utterly great cars. The Bertone is a baby Ferrari. In fact compare to Ferraris 70's and 80's efforts I think I'd take a 105 GTA. But that's another story..!
Footnote. I had a few original Bertones in the 80's and one of the best bits is the smell! They had a funny plastic pong. But you knew you were home in a OG car. Restored machines lose things like that.
Edited by P50 on Saturday 25th August 20:41
Brilliant cars and highly recommended, but a potential rot nightmare and it is often quite well hidden. There are a good number of road legal cars out there on which the bodies and sills (in particular the sills) are one big pothole from collapsing into a pile of rubiginous flakes. Bad metal was the problem. Everything else can be mended or swapped fairly affordably, so really focus on the shell.
Take this buyer's guide with you. It's free, but you need to register on the site to download it.
http://www.classicandsportscar.com/guides/buyers-g...
Take this buyer's guide with you. It's free, but you need to register on the site to download it.
http://www.classicandsportscar.com/guides/buyers-g...
H
Had a 2000, have to say I prefer the sweetness of the 1300.
Instead I just opted to strip weight out of it to gain more speed.
Don't knock the later juniors, the dash is nicer, simpler styling and nicer grill than the later 1750 and 2000. Rubber mat interior is also easier to live with, lighter and always looks good.
Juniors easy to I'd by single front headlights and smooth bonnet line.........here's mine
Untitled by jamie and the magic torch, on Flickr
Breadvan72 said:
The 1300 is a gem on a B Road.
I agree, did contemplate doing a 2000cc conversion, but getting a 1300 set up properly is a very sweet thing.Had a 2000, have to say I prefer the sweetness of the 1300.
Instead I just opted to strip weight out of it to gain more speed.
Don't knock the later juniors, the dash is nicer, simpler styling and nicer grill than the later 1750 and 2000. Rubber mat interior is also easier to live with, lighter and always looks good.
Juniors easy to I'd by single front headlights and smooth bonnet line.........here's mine
Untitled by jamie and the magic torch, on Flickr
Edited by jamieandthemagic on Sunday 26th August 18:08
Jamie, it depends how 'late' you call 'late', most would agree that the Juniors with the single headlights but 1750 style grill and dash are particularly nice, but the later ones (circa 74 onward) are all but identical to a 2000GTV, so you get the dodgy aesthetics but not the power.
Mind you I've heard a few people prefer the styling of the later cars, so it really is a personal choice thing.
Mind you I've heard a few people prefer the styling of the later cars, so it really is a personal choice thing.
I am going to look at one around the corner from my place this afternoon.
it has a few track day upgrades (roll cage, seats, harnesses) and a twin spark engine. it also has lsd, suspension upgrades and an ecu.
grp panels, though - are these to be avoided, or is a case of having to look hard at the bits that are still metal for corrosion?
again - many thanks for the advice, guys.
it has a few track day upgrades (roll cage, seats, harnesses) and a twin spark engine. it also has lsd, suspension upgrades and an ecu.
grp panels, though - are these to be avoided, or is a case of having to look hard at the bits that are still metal for corrosion?
again - many thanks for the advice, guys.
I never 'got' 105 Alfas. I love Alfas in general but I started off with the Alfasud and after those, the 105 just felt old and wobbly.
What I'd be looking for now - if there are any left - is the Alfetta GT and GTV. The metal bumper cars with the lunatic dashboard are just lovely and the chassis was on a whole new level. But f
k me, did they rot - probably one of the worst ever cars for ferrous oxide. But so pretty - damned shame.
What I'd be looking for now - if there are any left - is the Alfetta GT and GTV. The metal bumper cars with the lunatic dashboard are just lovely and the chassis was on a whole new level. But f
k me, did they rot - probably one of the worst ever cars for ferrous oxide. But so pretty - damned shame.okay, just got back from looking at the car.
it all looks reasonable and drives well. the floors look good, as does the suspension mounts and spring pans. it has an alfa 75 engine (rebuilt recently) which seems to go really well. there is a small oil leak under the injection unit. it has big brakes and a recently rebuilt gearbox. it has koni suspension all 'round.
the car is fibreglass from the window down, and where the fibreglass boot floor is bonded to the rear of the wheel arch, there is rust. i have attached photos.
is this terminal?
![](http://thumbsnap.com/sc/6nv0PHLq.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/YGEAoxCd" Target="_blank">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/YGEAoxCd.jpg)
it looks like the 'glass has come away from the metal where it has corroded.
other than that, the car is pretty much what he is looking for
i would like to take it to someone for a closer inspection.
it all looks reasonable and drives well. the floors look good, as does the suspension mounts and spring pans. it has an alfa 75 engine (rebuilt recently) which seems to go really well. there is a small oil leak under the injection unit. it has big brakes and a recently rebuilt gearbox. it has koni suspension all 'round.
the car is fibreglass from the window down, and where the fibreglass boot floor is bonded to the rear of the wheel arch, there is rust. i have attached photos.
is this terminal?
it looks like the 'glass has come away from the metal where it has corroded.
other than that, the car is pretty much what he is looking for
i would like to take it to someone for a closer inspection.
Edited by Richie Howard on Saturday 1st September 20:40
I'd walk and look for another.
Nothing's terminal on a 105 - but it can be *very* expensive to put right.
Don't worry too much about the oily bits - as they're pretty much all readily available and if you want a TSpark upgrade, they're also cheap and available.
But shells make or break the financial viability of a car.
Nothing's terminal on a 105 - but it can be *very* expensive to put right.
Don't worry too much about the oily bits - as they're pretty much all readily available and if you want a TSpark upgrade, they're also cheap and available.
But shells make or break the financial viability of a car.
If that's what the inside of the boot looks like then I really wonder what's going on inside the sills
You say the floor pans looked good, did you lift the carpets in the footwells especially the front?
Did you get a good look at the chassis rails and he cross member under the radiator?
I would be walking away from this one...... End of.
You say the floor pans looked good, did you lift the carpets in the footwells especially the front?
Did you get a good look at the chassis rails and he cross member under the radiator?
I would be walking away from this one...... End of.
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