The long-term future of the UK classic car movement
Discussion
Over on General Gassing we're having an interesting debate about the level of interest that teenagers are currently showing towards cars, in comparison to years gone by.
Of course, this being Pistonheads, the thread posters who are of that age-group are clearly interested in cars. However, the overall feedback from them regarding their peers and other factors (eg. exorbitant insurance premiums, spending money on phones/consoles, lack of DIY maintenance opportunities with modern cars, etc) seems to indicate that teenage car enthusiasts are very much a small minority of their generation nowadays. Interest, even in modern cars, appears to be on the wane. When these people are eventually in a financial position to buy and insure a car (maybe early 20s), the general perceived ambition seems to stretch no further than something like a near-new white-goods VAG diesel.
So looking forward 10 - 20 years or so, will we see a corresponding drop in the level of new blood interest in the UK classic car movement, at least at the grass roots level? In which case this could have knock-on ramifications for car clubs, motorsport events, classic car parts/service providers and, of course, classic car values. It may also mean that proportionally very few current cars will get to see their tenth birthday.
Anyway what do you lot think?
EDIT: just one bit of info lifted from the other thread to highlight the situation:
"In Britain, the percentage of 17- to 20-year-olds with driving licences fell from 48% in the early 1990s to 35% in 2010."
Of course, this being Pistonheads, the thread posters who are of that age-group are clearly interested in cars. However, the overall feedback from them regarding their peers and other factors (eg. exorbitant insurance premiums, spending money on phones/consoles, lack of DIY maintenance opportunities with modern cars, etc) seems to indicate that teenage car enthusiasts are very much a small minority of their generation nowadays. Interest, even in modern cars, appears to be on the wane. When these people are eventually in a financial position to buy and insure a car (maybe early 20s), the general perceived ambition seems to stretch no further than something like a near-new white-goods VAG diesel.
So looking forward 10 - 20 years or so, will we see a corresponding drop in the level of new blood interest in the UK classic car movement, at least at the grass roots level? In which case this could have knock-on ramifications for car clubs, motorsport events, classic car parts/service providers and, of course, classic car values. It may also mean that proportionally very few current cars will get to see their tenth birthday.
Anyway what do you lot think?
EDIT: just one bit of info lifted from the other thread to highlight the situation:
"In Britain, the percentage of 17- to 20-year-olds with driving licences fell from 48% in the early 1990s to 35% in 2010."
Edited by LotusOmega375D on Wednesday 17th October 09:26
I've been wondering about this.
One thing that I know would have annoyed the piss out of me back when I was a lad (as it does now) is the whole platform sharing thing.
As a boy I spend long nights arguing about which was the best of my Mk2 Golf GTI and friends 205 GTIs, Astra GTEs, Escort RS1800s, Fiesta RS2000s, Renault Clio Williams, Renault 5 Turbo, Citroen Visa GTI etc etc etc. ALL of these cars were markedly different.
Now you just have to look at how VAG produces god knows how many cars with the same underpinnings, plus Peugeot, Renault, Citroen etc and the point is moot.
One thing that I know would have annoyed the piss out of me back when I was a lad (as it does now) is the whole platform sharing thing.
As a boy I spend long nights arguing about which was the best of my Mk2 Golf GTI and friends 205 GTIs, Astra GTEs, Escort RS1800s, Fiesta RS2000s, Renault Clio Williams, Renault 5 Turbo, Citroen Visa GTI etc etc etc. ALL of these cars were markedly different.
Now you just have to look at how VAG produces god knows how many cars with the same underpinnings, plus Peugeot, Renault, Citroen etc and the point is moot.
Don't forget Ben that way back in the 20th century much the same was happening with "badge engineering". Austin Cambridge, Morris Oxford, MG Magnette plus Wolseley and Riley variants of the Farina range. 1100/1300 models were also "cloned" as basically the same car but with lots of different badges.
Back on topic - within the 3 clubs which I am most closely aligned with there is a healthy "young" contingent but to be honest a lot of these youngsters are the next generation of existing members who have obviously got the right genes and want to carry on the classic car scene. The fact their understanding parents encourage this and let them drive (and insure) their precious cars may have something to do with it. I don't think we need to be too pessimistic though and I'm sure the classic car movement will survive, and hopefully flourish.
Personally I think we should worry more about bureaucrats and legislation putting a spanner in the works (excuse the pun) rather then there being enough young enthusiasts to carry the flag.
Back on topic - within the 3 clubs which I am most closely aligned with there is a healthy "young" contingent but to be honest a lot of these youngsters are the next generation of existing members who have obviously got the right genes and want to carry on the classic car scene. The fact their understanding parents encourage this and let them drive (and insure) their precious cars may have something to do with it. I don't think we need to be too pessimistic though and I'm sure the classic car movement will survive, and hopefully flourish.
Personally I think we should worry more about bureaucrats and legislation putting a spanner in the works (excuse the pun) rather then there being enough young enthusiasts to carry the flag.
Don't you find that it has always been so? I would say 99% of my friends have zero interest in cars/motoring/motorsport. A couple a Le Mans buddies have nice cars, but not classics. To most people, the idea of keeping a 30-60 years old classic on the road, along with the inevitable costs, is a total anathema.
Conversely, Plug Jr and his mates are car mad. With little hope of getting onto the property ladder at the moment, they seem quite happy spending their cash on nice cars, where insurance allows. Junior has a rather nice Clio Williams at the tender age of 21. These are the classic car owners of the future, although they might just see a white VW Polo in a much different light to us in the future....!
Conversely, Plug Jr and his mates are car mad. With little hope of getting onto the property ladder at the moment, they seem quite happy spending their cash on nice cars, where insurance allows. Junior has a rather nice Clio Williams at the tender age of 21. These are the classic car owners of the future, although they might just see a white VW Polo in a much different light to us in the future....!
Interesting, what do you rate as being into cars ... y3k_jnr is 14 and very into pretty much anything car related no the telly, F1, BTTC and show's etc. We are often up at Castle Coombe too.
However he's shown almost no interest in helping with my GT6 rebuild. Just doeesn't seem to want to get oily - same as his peers.
However he's shown almost no interest in helping with my GT6 rebuild. Just doeesn't seem to want to get oily - same as his peers.
benjj said:
I've been wondering about this.
One thing that I know would have annoyed the piss out of me back when I was a lad (as it does now) is the whole platform sharing thing.
As a boy I spend long nights arguing about which was the best of my Mk2 Golf GTI and friends 205 GTIs, Astra GTEs, Escort RS1800s, Fiesta RS2000s, Renault Clio Williams, Renault 5 Turbo, Citroen Visa GTI etc etc etc. ALL of these cars were markedly different.
Now you just have to look at how VAG produces god knows how many cars with the same underpinnings, plus Peugeot, Renault, Citroen etc and the point is moot.
Things are about to get worse, or possibly. There's talk of a merger between vauxhall-Opel and Peugeot-Citroen.One thing that I know would have annoyed the piss out of me back when I was a lad (as it does now) is the whole platform sharing thing.
As a boy I spend long nights arguing about which was the best of my Mk2 Golf GTI and friends 205 GTIs, Astra GTEs, Escort RS1800s, Fiesta RS2000s, Renault Clio Williams, Renault 5 Turbo, Citroen Visa GTI etc etc etc. ALL of these cars were markedly different.
Now you just have to look at how VAG produces god knows how many cars with the same underpinnings, plus Peugeot, Renault, Citroen etc and the point is moot.
yet more platform sharing?
I think it has something to do with teenagers just thinking they cannot afford the car or insurance and therefore think about what they can afford like gadgets and the latest phone. At 19 there was little in the way of gadgets to waste my money on and I was driving a MK1 Granada Coupe 3 litre on my own insurance and although the insurance was expensive I didnt need a mortgage to pay it.
I don't buy the insurance thing as a good enough reason.
After my first 2 cars (old Land Rovers) my first traditional road car (1984 Saab 900i - boggo 3 door 8v) was £1275 per year 3rd Party F&T. That was in 1992/3 I think.
Fag packet maths would suggest that would now be around £2500 TPF&T for a 19 year old on a 2004 Saab 93. I think that sounds about right.
Insurance = no excuse for the true petrol head.
After my first 2 cars (old Land Rovers) my first traditional road car (1984 Saab 900i - boggo 3 door 8v) was £1275 per year 3rd Party F&T. That was in 1992/3 I think.
Fag packet maths would suggest that would now be around £2500 TPF&T for a 19 year old on a 2004 Saab 93. I think that sounds about right.
Insurance = no excuse for the true petrol head.
It'll be more dependant on what people are being asked to drive 'normally' in 20 years time. Cars have in real terms changed very little in the last 50 years, more complex they may be but they still largely have 4 wheels, an engine, and a steering wheel. If there is a major shift in the next 20 years, this will have a greater effect on whether our hobby dies or thrives. It only takes some fresh environmental or safety legislation to outlaw the driving of older cars and we end up with a hobby more in line with art collection with the limited appeal that brings.
If cars continue to morph into different versions of the same, then there will remain a strong following of those who want to step away from the herd and own something unconventional.
Paul
If cars continue to morph into different versions of the same, then there will remain a strong following of those who want to step away from the herd and own something unconventional.
Paul
I think insurance is a big factor, for a 17 year old it is pretty prohibitive in many average income households and requires serious commitment from the 17 year old themselves to save and commit. I would guess this is a large part of the reason for the reduction in the numbers with driving licences, why get a licence if you can't afford to insure a car and therefore won't have a chance to drive.
No idea about interest, back in the late 70s my mates varied from total petrolheads like me to those who really didn't care. There were some who had cars because they were useful for them and some who had cars because they desperately wanted them and others who didn't bother to learn to drive. From observation of my daughter's friends I am not sure if that is the same now although they are both well into their 20s so maybe not fully representative. What was also different when I was a teenager was that many of us had cars which needed maintenance and we could do that ourselves making running the cars more affordable. Unless interested enough to run an older car that is not really possible now (beyond basic servicing) so maybe another factor which could reduce enthusiasm and interest.
No idea about interest, back in the late 70s my mates varied from total petrolheads like me to those who really didn't care. There were some who had cars because they were useful for them and some who had cars because they desperately wanted them and others who didn't bother to learn to drive. From observation of my daughter's friends I am not sure if that is the same now although they are both well into their 20s so maybe not fully representative. What was also different when I was a teenager was that many of us had cars which needed maintenance and we could do that ourselves making running the cars more affordable. Unless interested enough to run an older car that is not really possible now (beyond basic servicing) so maybe another factor which could reduce enthusiasm and interest.
Just checking on the PH classifieds a "classic" MK1 Golf GTI with low mileage, costs about the same as a MK5 with high mileage. Due to classic insurance I would imagine the MK1 would be cheaper to insure. So that would be one reason to go the classic route.
I may be wrong and will accept being shot down in flames!!
I may be wrong and will accept being shot down in flames!!
benjj said:
I don't buy the insurance thing as a good enough reason.
After my first 2 cars (old Land Rovers) my first traditional road car (1984 Saab 900i - boggo 3 door 8v) was £1275 per year 3rd Party F&T. That was in 1992/3 I think.
Fag packet maths would suggest that would now be around £2500 TPF&T for a 19 year old on a 2004 Saab 93. I think that sounds about right.
Insurance = no excuse for the true petrol head.
Have you seen just how crazy the price has spiked for young people recently?After my first 2 cars (old Land Rovers) my first traditional road car (1984 Saab 900i - boggo 3 door 8v) was £1275 per year 3rd Party F&T. That was in 1992/3 I think.
Fag packet maths would suggest that would now be around £2500 TPF&T for a 19 year old on a 2004 Saab 93. I think that sounds about right.
Insurance = no excuse for the true petrol head.
I bought my first car at 21 in 2006. It was a Fiesta 1100 and I paid £620 for insurance from Elephant. The inflation calculation website suggests this is about £660 in today's money.
I just ran the same details through confused.com as if I was buying that car as a new driver today. All the same details, remember:
Elephant (cheapest) £6053
Admiral (next cheapest) £6415
(then ten quotes between £6,444 and £14,036)
Flux Direct (highest quote) £14,098 :lol:
And they're annual payments. If you want to pay monthly, the cheapest quote becomes a staggering £7835 (£606/mo + £1100 one off).
You'd have to be one hell of an enthusiast to get over that hurdle.
Perd Hapley said:
Have you seen just how crazy the price has spiked for young people recently?
I bought my first car at 21 in 2006. It was a Fiesta 1100 and I paid £620 for insurance from Elephant. The inflation calculation website suggests this is about £660 in today's money.
I just ran the same details through confused.com as if I was buying that car as a new driver today. All the same details, remember:
Elephant (cheapest) £6053
Admiral (next cheapest) £6415
(then ten quotes between £6,444 and £14,036)
Flux Direct (highest quote) £14,098 :lol:
And they're annual payments. If you want to pay monthly, the cheapest quote becomes a staggering £7835 (£606/mo + £1100 one off).
You'd have to be one hell of an enthusiast to get over that hurdle.
fI bought my first car at 21 in 2006. It was a Fiesta 1100 and I paid £620 for insurance from Elephant. The inflation calculation website suggests this is about £660 in today's money.
I just ran the same details through confused.com as if I was buying that car as a new driver today. All the same details, remember:
Elephant (cheapest) £6053
Admiral (next cheapest) £6415
(then ten quotes between £6,444 and £14,036)
Flux Direct (highest quote) £14,098 :lol:
And they're annual payments. If you want to pay monthly, the cheapest quote becomes a staggering £7835 (£606/mo + £1100 one off).
You'd have to be one hell of an enthusiast to get over that hurdle.
k me sideways with a life sized manequin made of barbed wire, that is nuts. Didn't realise.I am late 30's and insure a Porsche 944, Citroen DS Rally and a Range Rover for the sum total of £800 per year. Poor bloody kids.
Perd Hapley said:
Have you seen just how crazy the price has spiked for young people recently?
I bought my first car at 21 in 2006. It was a Fiesta 1100 and I paid £620 for insurance from Elephant. The inflation calculation website suggests this is about £660 in today's money.
I just ran the same details through confused.com as if I was buying that car as a new driver today. All the same details, remember:
Elephant (cheapest) £6053
Admiral (next cheapest) £6415
(then ten quotes between £6,444 and £14,036)
Flux Direct (highest quote) £14,098 :lol:
And they're annual payments. If you want to pay monthly, the cheapest quote becomes a staggering £7835 (£606/mo + £1100 one off).
You'd have to be one hell of an enthusiast to get over that hurdle.
Where do you live - Beirut ? I insured my 21y.o. son for a Fiesta 1.2LX last year for about £1500 from Aviva. Just passed his test so nil NCD.I bought my first car at 21 in 2006. It was a Fiesta 1100 and I paid £620 for insurance from Elephant. The inflation calculation website suggests this is about £660 in today's money.
I just ran the same details through confused.com as if I was buying that car as a new driver today. All the same details, remember:
Elephant (cheapest) £6053
Admiral (next cheapest) £6415
(then ten quotes between £6,444 and £14,036)
Flux Direct (highest quote) £14,098 :lol:
And they're annual payments. If you want to pay monthly, the cheapest quote becomes a staggering £7835 (£606/mo + £1100 one off).
You'd have to be one hell of an enthusiast to get over that hurdle.
hello there, I'm 18 and love classics.
I currently have this http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
and i cant see myself not having another classic - so much more fun than modern cars!
I do agree though the there is a definite lack of interest in classics in the younger community, people seem amazed that you change your own oil, let alone end up elbow deep in engine...
People do seem to be more interested in 'white goods motoring' these days, although if you dig down there are a few people with classics, and the insurance is much cheaper - although £1000 PA is now acceptable
I think that there is definite lack in encouragement though, with anti-speed campaigns, anti-motoring (we even had people come into our school 3 or so years ago saying how cars were dangerous, and showed us some graphic pictures, with no other views shown!), the green campaign and main garages meaning people dont maintain their own vehicles. a shame really. - although I suspect/hope that it will pick up once again, and this is just a dip in the numbers.
I currently have this http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
and i cant see myself not having another classic - so much more fun than modern cars!
I do agree though the there is a definite lack of interest in classics in the younger community, people seem amazed that you change your own oil, let alone end up elbow deep in engine...
People do seem to be more interested in 'white goods motoring' these days, although if you dig down there are a few people with classics, and the insurance is much cheaper - although £1000 PA is now acceptable
I think that there is definite lack in encouragement though, with anti-speed campaigns, anti-motoring (we even had people come into our school 3 or so years ago saying how cars were dangerous, and showed us some graphic pictures, with no other views shown!), the green campaign and main garages meaning people dont maintain their own vehicles. a shame really. - although I suspect/hope that it will pick up once again, and this is just a dip in the numbers.
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