British Classics: why so undervalued?
Discussion
Don't you sometimes think that they would fetch a lot more if they had a German or Italian badge on them? There's been some great stuff manufactured here, but (with the odd exception like the recent fetish for DB Astons) their market values rarely seem to reflect this.
Take something like a Jaguar XJ12: no-one else back then was making a 12 cylinder saloon and it was widely lauded in the press as the world's fastest 4 door, so if it bore a Maserati badge would a decent one still only be worth 5 - 10 grand today?
What about the bespoke V8-engined 4-seat Triumph Stag? Would <10 grand still get you a minter today if it had come from Alfa Romeo?
Similarly is a Yank V8-engined ISO Grifo really 6 - 7x better than a Yank V8-engined Jensen Interceptor?
Even higher up the spectrum, the XJ220 seems to have settled at 100 - 120k or so, whereas the slower F40 is 350k-odd, despite Ferrari building more than 1000 more than the Jag.
Finally, don't get me started on how the luxurious and fast Bentley Turbo R, which cost its first owner as much as a reasonable house, can now only be worth 10k!
I'm not saying that all of our cars were the equals of their continental rivals and yes there were reliability issues back then, but we do seem to have let values of many British classics in particular stagnate over the years. Maybe familiarity breeds indifference and if we lived elsewhere we might appreciate these cars rather more.
Take something like a Jaguar XJ12: no-one else back then was making a 12 cylinder saloon and it was widely lauded in the press as the world's fastest 4 door, so if it bore a Maserati badge would a decent one still only be worth 5 - 10 grand today?
What about the bespoke V8-engined 4-seat Triumph Stag? Would <10 grand still get you a minter today if it had come from Alfa Romeo?
Similarly is a Yank V8-engined ISO Grifo really 6 - 7x better than a Yank V8-engined Jensen Interceptor?
Even higher up the spectrum, the XJ220 seems to have settled at 100 - 120k or so, whereas the slower F40 is 350k-odd, despite Ferrari building more than 1000 more than the Jag.
Finally, don't get me started on how the luxurious and fast Bentley Turbo R, which cost its first owner as much as a reasonable house, can now only be worth 10k!
I'm not saying that all of our cars were the equals of their continental rivals and yes there were reliability issues back then, but we do seem to have let values of many British classics in particular stagnate over the years. Maybe familiarity breeds indifference and if we lived elsewhere we might appreciate these cars rather more.
all 'classics' are overvalued and over priced, some more so than others, the difference between an old car and a 'classic' and one 'classic' to another is just the popularity/price/value and has very little to do with engineering and build quality or ingenuity
I always remember years ago, before Life on Mars TV programme, show condition MGB 10k whereas the same quality show condition Cortina Mk3 was 1k - both were and remain perfectly reasonable cars of their time but not that special yet in the same condition one was worth ten times the other, I'd suggest for the condition the Cortina should have been worth more and the MGB a great deal less (both of equal show condition)
I always remember years ago, before Life on Mars TV programme, show condition MGB 10k whereas the same quality show condition Cortina Mk3 was 1k - both were and remain perfectly reasonable cars of their time but not that special yet in the same condition one was worth ten times the other, I'd suggest for the condition the Cortina should have been worth more and the MGB a great deal less (both of equal show condition)
na said:
all 'classics' are overvalued and over priced, some more so than others, the difference between an old car and a 'classic' and one 'classic' to another is just the popularity/price/value and has very little to do with engineering and build quality or ingenuity
I always remember years ago, before Life on Mars TV programme, show condition MGB 10k whereas the same quality show condition Cortina Mk3 was 1k - both were and remain perfectly reasonable cars of their time but not that special yet in the same condition one was worth ten times the other, I'd suggest for the condition the Cortina should have been worth more and the MGB a great deal less (both of equal show condition)
Thing is, driving an MGB is still fun (I imagine I always remember years ago, before Life on Mars TV programme, show condition MGB 10k whereas the same quality show condition Cortina Mk3 was 1k - both were and remain perfectly reasonable cars of their time but not that special yet in the same condition one was worth ten times the other, I'd suggest for the condition the Cortina should have been worth more and the MGB a great deal less (both of equal show condition)
) whereas driving a Cortina Mk3 still isn't.The thing is with classics there are a few rules of thumb,
1} Sports cars are worth more than saloons.
2} Convertibles {except for the 300sl !} are worth more than hard tops.
3} If a car has more than 1 engine size {eg Mk 2 Jag} the biggest is worth the most.
In some ways it's pretty obvious really , most classics are used for high days and holidays rather than as practical transport therefore if your only going to use it occasionally then a thirsty, convertible with little room is fine.
I actually think that a lot of old saloon cars look cheap compared to what say a TR5 or Healy 3000 fetch these days. Not only old XJ Jags but for example the Merc 450SEL 6.9, i seem to remember the ex James Hunt one only went for 10k or so a couple of years back, Bentley Mulsanne Turbos, old M5 BMWs, Audi quatros etc all look cheap to me for real road rockets but I suppose it's just supply and demand.
Bill
1} Sports cars are worth more than saloons.
2} Convertibles {except for the 300sl !} are worth more than hard tops.
3} If a car has more than 1 engine size {eg Mk 2 Jag} the biggest is worth the most.
In some ways it's pretty obvious really , most classics are used for high days and holidays rather than as practical transport therefore if your only going to use it occasionally then a thirsty, convertible with little room is fine.
I actually think that a lot of old saloon cars look cheap compared to what say a TR5 or Healy 3000 fetch these days. Not only old XJ Jags but for example the Merc 450SEL 6.9, i seem to remember the ex James Hunt one only went for 10k or so a couple of years back, Bentley Mulsanne Turbos, old M5 BMWs, Audi quatros etc all look cheap to me for real road rockets but I suppose it's just supply and demand.
Bill
LotusOmega375D said:
What about the bespoke V8-engined 4-seat Triumph Stag? Would <10 grand still get you a minter today if it had come from Alfa Romeo?
Alfa wouldn't have made anything quite so shoddy as the Stag. Considering 10 grand buys a very decent R107 Mercedes SL, the Stag is clearly overvalued anyway.
iSore said:
LotusOmega375D said:
What about the bespoke V8-engined 4-seat Triumph Stag? Would <10 grand still get you a minter today if it had come from Alfa Romeo?
Alfa wouldn't have made anything quite so shoddy as the Stag. Considering 10 grand buys a very decent R107 Mercedes SL, the Stag is clearly overvalued anyway.I would be most interested to hear WHY the Stag, which is arguably one of the most beautiful cars of that era, is, "clearly over valued anyway." Whilst Stag's originally had an inherent problem with overheating, due to an inadequate water pump, 70's Alfa's were utter rot boxes. The fact that so many Stags survive compared to Alfa's of the same period speaks volumes. The reliability problems which plagued the Stag initially, were resolved long ago. They can be a throughly reliable car.
As a non-Stag owner, I await your reply with considerable interest!
Yertis said:
Thing is, driving an MGB is still fun (I imagine ) whereas driving a Cortina Mk3 still isn't.
I don't know . . . we had a 2000E, very basic for an executive's car, no headrests, rubber bowl foot operated windscreen washer, no good in this weather but fun if you had to pull out quick without wheelspin, you could hear the petrol going through the carb, average 24 mpg fast or slow so might as well cruise ) whereas driving a Cortina Mk3 still isn't.and how come they are more fun after appearing in a TV drama series
Pedmeister said:
I would be most interested to hear WHY the Stag, which is arguably one of the most beautiful cars of that era, is, "clearly over valued anyway." Whilst Stag's originally had an inherent problem with overheating, due to an inadequate water pump, 70's Alfa's were utter rot boxes. The fact that so many Stags survive compared to Alfa's of the same period speaks volumes. The reliability problems which plagued the Stag initially, were resolved long ago. They can be a throughly reliable car.
Slightly OT and possibly apocryphal, but I've heard that the Stag's V8 had an inadequate water jacket, poor castings, materials and manufacturing standards, and that engines dismantled in recent years were found to still have sand from the casting process inside them. Some owners loved the car, but gave up with the engine and fitted alternatives (V6 Essex, Rover V8, etc,.). The Stag did have an Italian connection - it was designed by Michelotti.It may be rust which UK cars are prone to and it may be familiarity breeding contempt - I'm 53 and still recall lots of jags and Interceptors running round which takes away the "special" aura you get from something like a Citroen SM.
I think the XJ12 was such a nightmare that you have to be brave to take one on with all those carbs.
I think the XJ12 was such a nightmare that you have to be brave to take one on with all those carbs.
Pedmeister said:
Do I detect a sophisticated ironic sense of humour in this comment, or is it merely your subjective opinion!? 'Alfa Romeo,' and 'build quality,' sit very badly in the same sentence-given some of the woeful build quality associated with the Italian marque. A colleague of mine returned an Alfa Spider to the dealer after only a few weeks of ownership due to a myriad of reliability and mechanical problems. Given that the car was built in the last decade, and it was only three years old when my colleague purchased it, it was dreadfully unreliable. To some degree, the unreliability of the Triumph Stag in the 1970's, is more easy to accept, and forgive, given that reliability of cars was generally far poorer then than now.
I would be most interested to hear WHY the Stag, which is arguably one of the most beautiful cars of that era, is, "clearly over valued anyway." Whilst Stag's originally had an inherent problem with overheating, due to an inadequate water pump, 70's Alfa's were utter rot boxes. The fact that so many Stags survive compared to Alfa's of the same period speaks volumes. The reliability problems which plagued the Stag initially, were resolved long ago. They can be a throughly reliable car.
As a non-Stag owner, I await your reply with considerable interest!
I agree.I would be most interested to hear WHY the Stag, which is arguably one of the most beautiful cars of that era, is, "clearly over valued anyway." Whilst Stag's originally had an inherent problem with overheating, due to an inadequate water pump, 70's Alfa's were utter rot boxes. The fact that so many Stags survive compared to Alfa's of the same period speaks volumes. The reliability problems which plagued the Stag initially, were resolved long ago. They can be a throughly reliable car.
As a non-Stag owner, I await your reply with considerable interest!
Many post war British cars were plain agricultural. When you think of engineering excellence and integrity, you might think of Alvis or some such, but all the mainstream British cars were hopelessly compromised by either the accountants or the workforce. There was very little flair around, Colin Chapman excepted
The Italians, on the other hand, with all the small design houses and builders, seen to have had a totally different outlook. Even their mainstream, Lancias or Alfasuds were brilliant fun, spoiled maybe by the manufacturing process but full of interest and ability.
Where the Germans fit into this I don't really know; engineering wise, they're great but visually, a little dour.
Nowadays, we buy old cars for pleasure, and that, of course means game set & match to the engineers and stylists from Italy.
The Italians, on the other hand, with all the small design houses and builders, seen to have had a totally different outlook. Even their mainstream, Lancias or Alfasuds were brilliant fun, spoiled maybe by the manufacturing process but full of interest and ability.
Where the Germans fit into this I don't really know; engineering wise, they're great but visually, a little dour.
Nowadays, we buy old cars for pleasure, and that, of course means game set & match to the engineers and stylists from Italy.
Pedmeister said:
Do I detect a sophisticated ironic sense of humour in this comment, or is it merely your subjective opinion!? 'Alfa Romeo,' and 'build quality,' sit very badly in the same sentence-given some of the woeful build quality associated with the Italian marque. A colleague of mine returned an Alfa Spider to the dealer after only a few weeks of ownership due to a myriad of reliability and mechanical problems. Given that the car was built in the last decade, and it was only three years old when my colleague purchased it, it was dreadfully unreliable. To some degree, the unreliability of the Triumph Stag in the 1970's, is more easy to accept, and forgive, given that reliability of cars was generally far poorer then than now.
I would be most interested to hear WHY the Stag, which is arguably one of the most beautiful cars of that era, is, "clearly over valued anyway." Whilst Stag's originally had an inherent problem with overheating, due to an inadequate water pump, 70's Alfa's were utter rot boxes. The fact that so many Stags survive compared to Alfa's of the same period speaks volumes. The reliability problems which plagued the Stag initially, were resolved long ago. They can be a throughly reliable car.
As a non-Stag owner, I await your reply with considerable interest!
Inadequate water pump? That was the least of its worries. The crankpins were too small (1.45 inches iirc), the timing chain too long (apparentently they STILL need replacing every 20-30k), the cheapo distributor that could give fatal ignition over advance plus the ludicrous design of the head with one row of bolts that went in at an angle for uneven clamping force. Sorry, that's just not a good engine by any measure.I would be most interested to hear WHY the Stag, which is arguably one of the most beautiful cars of that era, is, "clearly over valued anyway." Whilst Stag's originally had an inherent problem with overheating, due to an inadequate water pump, 70's Alfa's were utter rot boxes. The fact that so many Stags survive compared to Alfa's of the same period speaks volumes. The reliability problems which plagued the Stag initially, were resolved long ago. They can be a throughly reliable car.
As a non-Stag owner, I await your reply with considerable interest!
Alfas of old were rust buckets for sure. As cars though, they were quite superb. The Alfa twin cam for example is a perfect engineers engine, cast from alloy and clearly a quality item capable of a lot of miles and abuse. We're talking old Alfas btw, not modern Fiat based stuff.
As for numbers left, there were far more Stags sold in the UK than Alfa Romeos such as the 105 Series Coupes and Spiders. Stags look and sound nice, but they're bloody awful to drive from the skew whiff driving position to the wobbly handling. Sorry, you can keep it. As said, you can buy a perfectly decent 107 SL Mercedes for ten grand and that was a proper car and not a BL lash up.
I think the unreliability of some 60s cars can be overstated, my Dad had several 2nd hand Jags and I can't remember any of them not starting or overheating, we also had a Mini van which you could leave for weeks on end but it always started as well. The next door neighbour had a P5B Rover for over 10 years and not only was that mechanically very reliable it's body was still good at the end { mind you he was fastidious}.
The thing I do remember was that Dad always wanted to get rid of 4 cylinder cars at around 40,000 miles as he felt a major rebuild was due and of course that does not happen now. With the Jags the trouble you did get tended to be from things like the heating system or windscreen wipers, for the time they had a lot of electrical gear on and none of it was anything like as reliable as you get now.
Bill
The thing I do remember was that Dad always wanted to get rid of 4 cylinder cars at around 40,000 miles as he felt a major rebuild was due and of course that does not happen now. With the Jags the trouble you did get tended to be from things like the heating system or windscreen wipers, for the time they had a lot of electrical gear on and none of it was anything like as reliable as you get now.
Bill
iSore said:
Stags look and sound nice, but they're bloody awful to drive from the skew whiff driving position to the wobbly handling. Sorry, you can keep it. As said, you can buy a perfectly decent 107 SL Mercedes for ten grand and that was a proper car and not a BL lash up.
Never found the driving position uncomfortable myself, and the only problem I found with the handling was the over-assisted power steering. The engine is undoubtedly a worry but having a fragile engine is hardly a trait unique to Triumph Stags. Not sure you'd get a really good 107 SL for ten grand now. The posts on here re. rust have certainly put me off.Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff