1977 Daimler Sovereign
Discussion
Morning all,
I'm looking at buying a 1977 3.4 Daimler Sovereign.
Are there any obvious issues I should be looking out for?
Is the 3.4 a good engine and is there much difference to the 4.2 in terms of performance/sound/feel etc?...
My dad restored a 4.2 XJ6 of a similar age and I remember him having to replace sills, rear quarter panels and a few other patches and I also remember him having to rebuild the engine and complete exhausts. Should I be looking at the same issues?
Any help or pointers to online help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Richard.
I'm looking at buying a 1977 3.4 Daimler Sovereign.
Are there any obvious issues I should be looking out for?
Is the 3.4 a good engine and is there much difference to the 4.2 in terms of performance/sound/feel etc?...
My dad restored a 4.2 XJ6 of a similar age and I remember him having to replace sills, rear quarter panels and a few other patches and I also remember him having to rebuild the engine and complete exhausts. Should I be looking at the same issues?
Any help or pointers to online help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Richard.
V8 FOU said:
Listen for the usual timing chain rattle and there should be some noise from the tappets as they close up in service.
Not on the 3.4 XJ6 engine. The top chain is adjustable through the front breather casing. Very seldom does the bottom chain wear. If it is so worn that the tensioner junps out and into the sump it seldom jumps a tooth or breaks; and this is always on very high mileage, neglected engines.If the valve clearance is correct, the tappets should be silent. Noisy tappets usually mean worn camshaft bearings or cam followers. I have never seen the valve clearance close up by itself.
J
The 3.4 although nice and smooth has no where near the guts of a 4.2 and also if auto it will feel very undergeard.A little bit of tappet noise on an xk lump is not a problem,its when they are quiet you need to be carefull,the valves wear into the seat inserts and this closes the clearance making the tappets quiet and it can cause the
valves to burn out and also the car will not run well with tight tappets.One of the worst things on an xk engine of this era is the AED choke unit,if not working correctly the car will drink petrol,run far too rich and over time wear the bores out,many a good xj6 has been ruined/scrapped because of a faulty AED.Best thing to do when buying an old xj is to take an expert to check it over for you if you are unsure,cos there is a lot to look at and these cars may be old but they are very complex and can easily trip up the unwary.
valves to burn out and also the car will not run well with tight tappets.One of the worst things on an xk engine of this era is the AED choke unit,if not working correctly the car will drink petrol,run far too rich and over time wear the bores out,many a good xj6 has been ruined/scrapped because of a faulty AED.Best thing to do when buying an old xj is to take an expert to check it over for you if you are unsure,cos there is a lot to look at and these cars may be old but they are very complex and can easily trip up the unwary.
solid61 said:
The 3.4 although nice and smooth has no where near the guts of a 4.2 and also if auto it will feel very undergeard.A little bit of tappet noise on an xk lump is not a problem,its when they are quiet you need to be carefull,the valves wear into the seat inserts and this closes the clearance making the tappets quiet and it can cause the
valves to burn out and also the car will not run well with tight tappets.One of the worst things on an xk engine of this era is the AED choke unit,if not working correctly the car will drink petrol,run far too rich and over time wear the bores out,many a good xj6 has been ruined/scrapped because of a faulty AED.Best thing to do when buying an old xj is to take an expert to check it over for you if you are unsure,cos there is a lot to look at and these cars may be old but they are very complex and can easily trip up the unwary.
Regarding the AED unit, is this something that can be replaced with a better, more modern version, or is it a case of replacing like for like? Is it something that is worth doing as a precaution regardless?valves to burn out and also the car will not run well with tight tappets.One of the worst things on an xk engine of this era is the AED choke unit,if not working correctly the car will drink petrol,run far too rich and over time wear the bores out,many a good xj6 has been ruined/scrapped because of a faulty AED.Best thing to do when buying an old xj is to take an expert to check it over for you if you are unsure,cos there is a lot to look at and these cars may be old but they are very complex and can easily trip up the unwary.
Thanks for all the advice. Then car I'm looking at only has 69k on the clock, which I believe is genuine. I think it has been sat up for a couple of years though and at the very least needs a new battery. Although I'm lead to believe the car can be driven once the new battery is in, I don't really want to take the chance on driving it without servicing it first. I've owned a fair few cars in the past and have always found getting information on them online pretty easy, but I'm quite suprised how little info there is available on the Daimler Sovereign. I've seem a good book recommended, but had hoped to find some online restorations, but nothing comes up. Any thoughts?
richardgrace75 said:
solid61 said:
The 3.4 although nice and smooth has no where near the guts of a 4.2 and also if auto it will feel very undergeard.A little bit of tappet noise on an xk lump is not a problem,its when they are quiet you need to be carefull,the valves wear into the seat inserts and this closes the clearance making the tappets quiet and it can cause the
valves to burn out and also the car will not run well with tight tappets.One of the worst things on an xk engine of this era is the AED choke unit,if not working correctly the car will drink petrol,run far too rich and over time wear the bores out,many a good xj6 has been ruined/scrapped because of a faulty AED.Best thing to do when buying an old xj is to take an expert to check it over for you if you are unsure,cos there is a lot to look at and these cars may be old but they are very complex and can easily trip up the unwary.
Regarding the AED unit, is this something that can be replaced with a better, more modern version, or is it a case of replacing like for like? Is it something that is worth doing as a precaution regardless?valves to burn out and also the car will not run well with tight tappets.One of the worst things on an xk engine of this era is the AED choke unit,if not working correctly the car will drink petrol,run far too rich and over time wear the bores out,many a good xj6 has been ruined/scrapped because of a faulty AED.Best thing to do when buying an old xj is to take an expert to check it over for you if you are unsure,cos there is a lot to look at and these cars may be old but they are very complex and can easily trip up the unwary.
The single, most predominant cause of valve failure is either localised overheating around the valve seat area or maladjusted ignition timing.
The AED units are appalling, no other words to describe them. I replaced dozens of them under warranty when these cars were new. The design is seriously flawed as it relies on external heat from the rear of the exhaust manifold on the opposite side of the engine to close down the mixture. This hot air has to travel along a lagged metal pipe that runs all the way around the rear of the engine and loses it's heat insulation after only a few thousand miles. The internal diaphragm in the AED is also subject to damage from backfires through the inlet manifold that burn it out.
The best solution is a manual choke conversion. It solves the problem permanently and will drastically improve your fuel consumption. To do the job properly you can fit a choke lever and cable from an early S1 XJ12 which looks the part on the dash and use the linkage from any vehicle that ran 2 inch SUs with a manual choke, i.e. E Type, Rover 2000,etc.
J
jith said:
I'm sorry but this is not accurate regarding the tappets. The only time this is likely to happen is if the engine is driven very hard at high revs for prolonged periods probably with the timing out.
The single, most predominant cause of valve failure is either localised overheating around the valve seat area or maladjusted ignition timing.
The AED units are appalling, no other words to describe them. I replaced dozens of them under warranty when these cars were new. The design is seriously flawed as it relies on external heat from the rear of the exhaust manifold on the opposite side of the engine to close down the mixture. This hot air has to travel along a lagged metal pipe that runs all the way around the rear of the engine and loses it's heat insulation after only a few thousand miles. The internal diaphragm in the AED is also subject to damage from backfires through the inlet manifold that burn it out.
The best solution is a manual choke conversion. It solves the problem permanently and will drastically improve your fuel consumption. To do the job properly you can fit a choke lever and cable from an early S1 XJ12 which looks the part on the dash and use the linkage from any vehicle that ran 2 inch SUs with a manual choke, i.e. E Type, Rover 2000,etc.
J
Brilliant, thanks. I had wondered about a manual choke.The single, most predominant cause of valve failure is either localised overheating around the valve seat area or maladjusted ignition timing.
The AED units are appalling, no other words to describe them. I replaced dozens of them under warranty when these cars were new. The design is seriously flawed as it relies on external heat from the rear of the exhaust manifold on the opposite side of the engine to close down the mixture. This hot air has to travel along a lagged metal pipe that runs all the way around the rear of the engine and loses it's heat insulation after only a few thousand miles. The internal diaphragm in the AED is also subject to damage from backfires through the inlet manifold that burn it out.
The best solution is a manual choke conversion. It solves the problem permanently and will drastically improve your fuel consumption. To do the job properly you can fit a choke lever and cable from an early S1 XJ12 which looks the part on the dash and use the linkage from any vehicle that ran 2 inch SUs with a manual choke, i.e. E Type, Rover 2000,etc.
J
jith said:
I'm sorry but this is not accurate regarding the tappets. The only time this is likely to happen is if the engine is driven very hard at high revs for prolonged periods probably with the timing out.
The single, most predominant cause of valve failure is either localised overheating around the valve seat area or maladjusted ignition timing.
The AED units are appalling, no other words to describe them. I replaced dozens of them under warranty when these cars were new. The design is seriously flawed as it relies on external heat from the rear of the exhaust manifold on the opposite side of the engine to close down the mixture. This hot air has to travel along a lagged metal pipe that runs all the way around the rear of the engine and loses it's heat insulation after only a few thousand miles. The internal diaphragm in the AED is also subject to damage from backfires through the inlet manifold that burn it out.
The best solution is a manual choke conversion. It solves the problem permanently and will drastically improve your fuel consumption. To do the job properly you can fit a choke lever and cable from an early S1 XJ12 which looks the part on the dash and use the linkage from any vehicle that ran 2 inch SUs with a manual choke, i.e. E Type, Rover 2000,etc.
J
As Jith says, tappets aren't an issue. Tappet guides can be, and sometimes work loose though its pretty rare. Later engines usually got a kit fitted to hold the guides in. All in all the 3.4 is a sweet little engine, though it has to work a tad harder to shift a heavy car... a manual gearbox would be a bonus as you'd suffer less on the fuel side of things.The single, most predominant cause of valve failure is either localised overheating around the valve seat area or maladjusted ignition timing.
The AED units are appalling, no other words to describe them. I replaced dozens of them under warranty when these cars were new. The design is seriously flawed as it relies on external heat from the rear of the exhaust manifold on the opposite side of the engine to close down the mixture. This hot air has to travel along a lagged metal pipe that runs all the way around the rear of the engine and loses it's heat insulation after only a few thousand miles. The internal diaphragm in the AED is also subject to damage from backfires through the inlet manifold that burn it out.
The best solution is a manual choke conversion. It solves the problem permanently and will drastically improve your fuel consumption. To do the job properly you can fit a choke lever and cable from an early S1 XJ12 which looks the part on the dash and use the linkage from any vehicle that ran 2 inch SUs with a manual choke, i.e. E Type, Rover 2000,etc.
J
AED's can work well, and you can buy new ones from Burlen fuel systems. Their major problem is that they are way too sensitive, one of the springs inside being better suited to the inside of a wind up watch. The heat pipe comes off a filter at the back of the exhaust manifold (which is almost always forgot) then through the lagged pipe to activate a bimettalic strip... which it rarely does. Then there's the fact it has its own little filtered float chamber which is positioned fore and aft - so it overflows or starves depending on which way you park on a steep hill...
A 1977 S2 won't have the 2" carbs, it will be on the later HIF style carbs with the internal floats. There is no provision for a manual choke on these, so you won't be able to do a straight fitment of the old style choke linkages.
You can get a kit which removes the top of the AED and removes the need for hot air, with a choke cable coming off it to replace the bimetallic strip, so you can manually control the enrichment. I had this for a while and found it to be pretty good.
It is possible to get round it altogether by retro fitting suitable pair of 2" carbs, but it requires a change of throttle and kickdown linkages too as the one needed from cable to rear carb and between the carbs themselves are longer. Find a whole setup from a late S1, early S2 and get new jets and needles, and you should have everything you need. XJ carbs are fine as the provision for manual choke is there on the HS 2" carbs; its just not used due to the AED being fitted.
Fair comments on the valve clearence issue, i can only go on personal experience of these type of engines.Its been 20 years scince i owned an xj and probably had 20 plus examples in the 1980s when many of them were cheap and poorly looked after old bangers.The old saying of get a good un and you will love it but get a bad un and youll hate it is very true when it comes to the xj6.
solid61 said:
Fair comments on the valve clearence issue, i can only go on personal experience of these type of engines.Its been 20 years scince i owned an xj and probably had 20 plus examples in the 1980s when many of them were cheap and poorly looked after old bangers.The old saying of get a good un and you will love it but get a bad un and youll hate it is very true when it comes to the xj6.
All comments definitely appreciated! Personal experiences are priceless. So thank you!I had a Series 3 3.4 manual for a long time. It's pretty much the same as the earlier series cars but with a 5 speed Rover gearbox instead of the 4 speed + overdrive Jaguar box
As mentioned the AED unit needs to go in the bin and a manual choke conversion fitted which is easy enough to do. Another candidate for removal is the viscous coupled fan which needs replacing with a Kenlowe electric fan. Dispite mine being a manual and very carefully set up and maintained the 3.4 is underpowered IMO and needed driving quite hard to keep up with traffic. I imagine a automatic - I've never driven a 3.4 auto, only a 4.2 - would be even more sluggish.
Fuel consumption is horrific - the very best I ever achieved was 24 MPG on a long steady motorway drive. More typically it managed 18/20 or so which is pretty much the same as the injected 4.2 S3.
Rust will be your biggest concern. Series cars all rot badly in the sills, round windows, bottom of wings and doors, sill closing panels, jacking points, front and rear valences and by the rear suspension mounts.
Rear brakes and handbrake are very difficult to work on, diff oil seals often get cooked by the close proximity of the inboard brakes, water leaks - both in the cabin and from the engine are common. Fuel tank pick up pipes and filters get blocked. Suspension bushes have always been a Jaguar weakness and replacement will mean suspension geometry will need resetting which ain't easy or cheap as all the geometry is set by shims.
The XK engine is tough but suffers from oil leaks. If it's been overheated chance are it'll blow a head gasket or suffer valve damage. The head studs often corrode into the block and snap making head removal/replacement very difficult.
Charming classic if you can find a really good one - nightmare if you don't IMO.
As mentioned the AED unit needs to go in the bin and a manual choke conversion fitted which is easy enough to do. Another candidate for removal is the viscous coupled fan which needs replacing with a Kenlowe electric fan. Dispite mine being a manual and very carefully set up and maintained the 3.4 is underpowered IMO and needed driving quite hard to keep up with traffic. I imagine a automatic - I've never driven a 3.4 auto, only a 4.2 - would be even more sluggish.
Fuel consumption is horrific - the very best I ever achieved was 24 MPG on a long steady motorway drive. More typically it managed 18/20 or so which is pretty much the same as the injected 4.2 S3.
Rust will be your biggest concern. Series cars all rot badly in the sills, round windows, bottom of wings and doors, sill closing panels, jacking points, front and rear valences and by the rear suspension mounts.
Rear brakes and handbrake are very difficult to work on, diff oil seals often get cooked by the close proximity of the inboard brakes, water leaks - both in the cabin and from the engine are common. Fuel tank pick up pipes and filters get blocked. Suspension bushes have always been a Jaguar weakness and replacement will mean suspension geometry will need resetting which ain't easy or cheap as all the geometry is set by shims.
The XK engine is tough but suffers from oil leaks. If it's been overheated chance are it'll blow a head gasket or suffer valve damage. The head studs often corrode into the block and snap making head removal/replacement very difficult.
Charming classic if you can find a really good one - nightmare if you don't IMO.
Edited by Jaguar steve on Thursday 11th April 08:52
Thanks for those pointers Steve. Really helpful!
The car I'm looking at is pretty cheap, so I'm very wary of the claim the car is in 'good condition'. Having said that, I'm not necessarily after something that is perfect. I want something I can do a bit of work on in the evenings and weekends. It's not going to be essential to have this on the road right away or anything. I also sense that maybe the current owner doesn't know as much about the car as your guys here, which could be either a good thing or a bad thing.
One thing that suprised me from the pictures is that it has manual windows, I always thought the Daimler was supposed to be the more refined version of the Jag. Yet I remember my dad's 4.2 XJ6 having electric windows. Was it just an optional extra?
I really appreciate everything that has been said here and would certainly appreciate more info, if anyone else has more to add.
I'll keep everyone posted as to mt progress.
Thanks again everyone.
The car I'm looking at is pretty cheap, so I'm very wary of the claim the car is in 'good condition'. Having said that, I'm not necessarily after something that is perfect. I want something I can do a bit of work on in the evenings and weekends. It's not going to be essential to have this on the road right away or anything. I also sense that maybe the current owner doesn't know as much about the car as your guys here, which could be either a good thing or a bad thing.
One thing that suprised me from the pictures is that it has manual windows, I always thought the Daimler was supposed to be the more refined version of the Jag. Yet I remember my dad's 4.2 XJ6 having electric windows. Was it just an optional extra?
I really appreciate everything that has been said here and would certainly appreciate more info, if anyone else has more to add.
I'll keep everyone posted as to mt progress.
Thanks again everyone.
Water leaks, particularly in the front footwells. Nightmare to trace and stop and can be hidden for ages by the thick underfelt until you start to smell damp or the car steams up. Can easily rut the floor(s) out.
Corrosion around front and rear screens and front scuttle which can be very costly to put right. beware any bubbling in those areas and check carefully for filler.
Corrosion in rear radius arms where they meet the rear sill area at the back of the rear doors.
Get the 4.2 every time.
Corrosion around front and rear screens and front scuttle which can be very costly to put right. beware any bubbling in those areas and check carefully for filler.
Corrosion in rear radius arms where they meet the rear sill area at the back of the rear doors.
Get the 4.2 every time.
9mm said:
Water leaks, particularly in the front footwells. Nightmare to trace and stop and can be hidden for ages by the thick underfelt until you start to smell damp or the car steams up. Can easily rut the floor(s) out.
Corrosion around front and rear screens and front scuttle which can be very costly to put right. beware any bubbling in those areas and check carefully for filler.
Corrosion in rear radius arms where they meet the rear sill area at the back of the rear doors.
Get the 4.2 every time.
When you say get the 4.2 every time, are you suggesting that it would be wrong to buy the 3.4? Could it be the case that buying the 3.4 I am looking at and transplanting a 4.2 in at some point, could be an option? Am I right in thinking a 4.2 lump would go straight in?Corrosion around front and rear screens and front scuttle which can be very costly to put right. beware any bubbling in those areas and check carefully for filler.
Corrosion in rear radius arms where they meet the rear sill area at the back of the rear doors.
Get the 4.2 every time.
The 4.2 fits fine where a 3.4 lived, the engine is dimensionally the same, but you'll need to put new jets and needles in if you keep your carbs rather than using whatever the donor has. Early 4.2's are pretty strong, later S3 4.2's make more power but tend to be a little more fragile in terms of head gasket issues if the coolant isn't kept up to spec.
When people say go for the 4.2 every time - its for reasons as posted earlier in the thread. Its not worth taking the performance hit for no gain in fuel economy. The 3.4 was the replacement for the 2.8, and designed to get around certain taxation issues at the time.
But if you like the car and its not a knacker - your choice is your own! I live with a S3 3.4 daily, and have had a S1 fitted with a 3.4 before that. The manual gearbox makes a huge difference.
When people say go for the 4.2 every time - its for reasons as posted earlier in the thread. Its not worth taking the performance hit for no gain in fuel economy. The 3.4 was the replacement for the 2.8, and designed to get around certain taxation issues at the time.
But if you like the car and its not a knacker - your choice is your own! I live with a S3 3.4 daily, and have had a S1 fitted with a 3.4 before that. The manual gearbox makes a huge difference.
Edited by richw_82 on Thursday 11th April 14:04
richw_82 said:
The 4.2 fits fine where a 3.4 lived, the engine is dimensionally the same, but you'll need to put new jets and needles in if you keep your carbs rather than using whatever the donor has. Early 4.2's are pretty strong, later S3 4.2's make more power but tend to be a little more fragile in terms of head gasket issues if the coolant isn't kept up to spec.
When people say go for the 4.2 every time - its for reasons as posted earlier in the thread. Its not worth taking the performance hit for no gain in fuel economy. The 3.4 was the replacement for the 2.8, and designed to get around certain taxation issues at the time.
But if you like the car and its not a knacker - your choice is your own! I live with a S3 3.4 daily, and have had a S1 fitted with a 3.4 before that. The manual gearbox makes a huge difference.
All the info has been so helpful. It's far too easy to follow your heart when it comes to a car that you want for sentimental reasons. But I seriously feel like I've learnt a lot from what has been said here and gives me a real guide. Any thoughts on dealers in panels, are there heritage parts dealers?When people say go for the 4.2 every time - its for reasons as posted earlier in the thread. Its not worth taking the performance hit for no gain in fuel economy. The 3.4 was the replacement for the 2.8, and designed to get around certain taxation issues at the time.
But if you like the car and its not a knacker - your choice is your own! I live with a S3 3.4 daily, and have had a S1 fitted with a 3.4 before that. The manual gearbox makes a huge difference.
Edited by richw_82 on Thursday 11th April 14:04
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