Classics that never evolved?
Discussion
Which classics were a brilliant package in their time, that could/should have been developed further?
For instance - the original MR2 went through a lardy phase, but has since been evolved into the new model as a well regarded modern sports car. Compare that with the Fiat X1/9, which was killed off and never gained the engine it deserved.
The Lotus Elan died out, but the very similar MX-5 shows that just that sort of package works well and can be very popular.
Other examples?
For instance - the original MR2 went through a lardy phase, but has since been evolved into the new model as a well regarded modern sports car. Compare that with the Fiat X1/9, which was killed off and never gained the engine it deserved.
The Lotus Elan died out, but the very similar MX-5 shows that just that sort of package works well and can be very popular.
Other examples?
-Alfa Romeo Montreal (needed reliability working into it)
-Citroen SM (a 4-cyl variant would have helped it survive the oil crisis and emerge with an evolved V6)
-Fiat X1/9 (Factory should've put the Uno Turbo engine in as an option IMO)
-Lancia Gamma
-Lotus Elite 501 (there should have been an 'Excel' version of it IMO)
-Reliant Scimitar GTE (yes, it evolved, but not enough - can you imagine it with a Sierra Cosworth turbo unit?)
-Citroen SM (a 4-cyl variant would have helped it survive the oil crisis and emerge with an evolved V6)
-Fiat X1/9 (Factory should've put the Uno Turbo engine in as an option IMO)
-Lancia Gamma
-Lotus Elite 501 (there should have been an 'Excel' version of it IMO)
-Reliant Scimitar GTE (yes, it evolved, but not enough - can you imagine it with a Sierra Cosworth turbo unit?)
I suppose, although the Esprit has always been much more of a GT type car (heavier, more comfortable, etc) than the Europa ever was. Although, the 3.5L twin-turbo in a 'ropa? hmmmm. 
As for the packaging, well, that's what you get for not being the same size as Colin Chapman (5'9, 170 lbs or so)...
I fit just fine.
I'd also add the porsche 914 to the list, although I suppose you could say the boxter is the evolution of it. At least they put the engine in the right spot!
Gary
As for the packaging, well, that's what you get for not being the same size as Colin Chapman (5'9, 170 lbs or so)...
I fit just fine. I'd also add the porsche 914 to the list, although I suppose you could say the boxter is the evolution of it. At least they put the engine in the right spot!
Gary
lanciachris said:
The Lancia Beta Montecarlo definately deserved more attention, especially the crippled us versions.
Tell me about it!
I've often wondered what configuration the Monte would have if it had received the same level of development as the Delta?
Here's a quick guess OTOH (bit obvious really but anyway, in order of importance):
4-pot Brembo calipers
20v Turbo lump (or would it be a 16v like an Integrale?)
Better galvanisation
Twin Ellipsoidal headlamps
Fuel tank in front (better than sack of spuds)
Which wheels... Once saw a Monte with Pininfarina modulars, not entirely sure they were appropriate, bit too ornate. Cromadoras? Ermm... Momos? 16" would be the right size IMHO.
Rose-jointed gear linkage
A more robust interior trim
Tougher control stalks
Fantasy island: Aluminium panels
Love to hear other suggestions :-)
Does Classicscars.com still have the Grp5 Monte for sale? If only my bank balance could afford it... What did they get for it, anyone?
Always good to meet a fellow Lancha massochist Chris, what part of the country are you from? I wonder if our paths have crossed?
Cheers!
>> Edited by flat16 on Friday 22 October 21:17
Im originally from surrey, but moved down to somerset in january. Lancia wise ive owned a black hpe volumex a33 vgk (may it rest in pieces), and I own a silver hpe volumex c363 rpc.
As for the montecarlos development, havent seen paul baker i think it is, anyway, his installation of the alfa v6 into a monte im inclinded to think that is the way they should have gone.
As for the montecarlos development, havent seen paul baker i think it is, anyway, his installation of the alfa v6 into a monte im inclinded to think that is the way they should have gone.
gary_tholl said:
I suppose, although the Esprit has always been much more of a GT type car (heavier, more comfortable, etc) than the Europa ever was. Although, the 3.5L twin-turbo in a 'ropa? hmmmm.
As for the packaging, well, that's what you get for not being the same size as Colin Chapman (5'9, 170 lbs or so)...
I don't think the esprit is really a developement of the europa. It's so much bigger and heavier. It's more like a big brother.
As a man with a renault/Alpine leaning I have to say that it's a shame Alpine wouldn't let Lotus use the tuned engines. A light motor with more power would have kept the europa in production a lot longer and picked up some competition trophies.
When I was considering one (15 years back) I couldn't get comfortable in it (a whisker under 6ft), but a friend is 6ft 1" and seems to have no problems. Maybe I should have persevered....
lanciachris said:
Im originally from surrey, but moved down to somerset in january. Lancia wise ive owned a black hpe volumex a33 vgk (may it rest in pieces), and I own a silver hpe volumex c363 rpc.
As for the montecarlos development, havent seen paul baker i think it is, anyway, his installation of the alfa v6 into a monte im inclinded to think that is the way they should have gone.
Must be one of the last imports on a C-reg I presume?
Do you maintain her yourself? You'll have to show us a pic one day. Does Paul Baker crop up here? Is he the same as the chair of the Lancia club?
(apologies for the incessant questions!)
Re: Europas. I seem to remember reading an article in a classic mag a few years back about a firm that specialises in modifying them with 2-ltr 16v Vauxhall lumps. Owner of the business also had a 2CV with mid-mounted turbo-charged Alfa unit
[quote]
Compare that with the Fiat X1/9, which was killed off and never gained the engine it deserved.
[/quote]
Out of interest, when the Montecarlo was first unveiled at the Geneva? motor-show, it had a Fiat badge and was labelled Fiat X1/20. I guess that could be a reason the X1/9 never receieved a bigger lump as Fiat planned to have a bigger sister for it?
Compare that with the Fiat X1/9, which was killed off and never gained the engine it deserved.
[/quote]
Out of interest, when the Montecarlo was first unveiled at the Geneva? motor-show, it had a Fiat badge and was labelled Fiat X1/20. I guess that could be a reason the X1/9 never receieved a bigger lump as Fiat planned to have a bigger sister for it?
flat16 said:
Must be one of the last imports on a C-reg I presume?
Does Paul Baker crop up here? Is he the same as the chair of the Lancia club?
I cant remember the exact build date, but suffice to say, its a late car - I do my own basic servicing, but more involved stuff (cambelt changes, anything involving dropping the engine) I farm out until I get a garage more local to me.
I may have the surname wrong on paul so im not sure, and I meant to say I have seen his v6 monte!
As for my pics..
The sorry remains of my 84 Volumex which died after the garage that did its last mot set fire to the wiring during some welding and didnt tell me. A year later the knock on effects had taken out the entire wiring loom. Combine their moody repairs with some more rust and
My 85, currently wearing shoddy paint, a rusty door and incorrect bonnet. The service history suggests its led a hard life (new subframe and front right wing in 1990), but it is in remarkable condition structurally, and I have the correct bonnet and a decent door to go on it. Check 'track kit on restoration' in the track days forum for details on planned rebuild.
Selling it was one of the big mistakes of my life!Very underrated cars IMO.if Fiat hadn't have sold out,they could have been a really special carLooks pretty tidy from the pics 
Good to see a standard car as well, rather than certain 3rd party add-ons one could mention...
Getting a Lancia serviced is a real mine-field (as if you didn't know that) - my attitude is to find a mechanic who's decent, but not necessarily a "Lancia specialist". On the whole I'd say my Monte is pretty intuitive, and mechanics tend to agree (although it hasn't left the garage in 2yrs now though owing to new business start-up and lack of time :-( )
I do the standard service items myself, but don't have the space or tools for serious work.
One thing that amazes me about Lancias of this vintage is the utter rubbish some people will tell you: "it's a specialist car mate". My old mechanic said the Monte was easier to work on than the '66 Austin 1100 I used to potter around in during the week...
Hopefully I might find the time to get the Monte up and running again in the new year, in which case I'll post some pics (I haven't taken photos of it for years as I never really needed to). It's an S2 Spyder with restored bodywork, pretty well rust-free (nice turrets, that's often a real sore point on a Monte...)
I decided to check out Lancia's current range for the first time in years via their website last week... I had no idea what horrors lay in store...
Keep up the good work on the Volumex Chris, it's a reminder of when Lancia made innovative motors (how many OEMs made blower-equipped engines in the '70s / '80s?).
Cheers!
Good to see a standard car as well, rather than certain 3rd party add-ons one could mention...
Getting a Lancia serviced is a real mine-field (as if you didn't know that) - my attitude is to find a mechanic who's decent, but not necessarily a "Lancia specialist". On the whole I'd say my Monte is pretty intuitive, and mechanics tend to agree (although it hasn't left the garage in 2yrs now though owing to new business start-up and lack of time :-( )
I do the standard service items myself, but don't have the space or tools for serious work.
One thing that amazes me about Lancias of this vintage is the utter rubbish some people will tell you: "it's a specialist car mate". My old mechanic said the Monte was easier to work on than the '66 Austin 1100 I used to potter around in during the week...
Hopefully I might find the time to get the Monte up and running again in the new year, in which case I'll post some pics (I haven't taken photos of it for years as I never really needed to). It's an S2 Spyder with restored bodywork, pretty well rust-free (nice turrets, that's often a real sore point on a Monte...)
I decided to check out Lancia's current range for the first time in years via their website last week... I had no idea what horrors lay in store...
Keep up the good work on the Volumex Chris, it's a reminder of when Lancia made innovative motors (how many OEMs made blower-equipped engines in the '70s / '80s?).
Cheers!
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