Classic endurance rallying
Discussion
benjj said:
Drop me a message if you want to chat. Can point you towards a few places to learn more and what you'll want to consider when building up your car.
Thanks for that. Have tried to PM you without success, probably finger trouble my end. Would be glad of any pointers you may have. I have already browsed the HERO website and found it interesting, but advice from someone already involved would be invaluable as I am completely in the dark.My experience of this is from some time ago but I was then in the same position as you.
I was really intrigued to do some classic rallying with my wife as navigator and we booked the CRA Winter Challenge in 1999 before I had a car or knew anyone to prepare it.
There are a lot of choices; I can only talk about the one’s I made and hope that this may help you:
The CRA is now part of the Hero Group – which was linked above; there is a Winter Challenge in 2014 going from the UK to the South if France. The entry fee is in region of £4,000 GBP I think so this is not a small undertaking. Smaller, UK based events are run by local clubs and are cheaper but I only did just the one event in Wales, as a trial run for the European rally. There is an option to hire a car through Hero too but again that’s a recent introduction that I have no experience of. I believe the daily rate starts at about £150+VAT a day in addition to the entry fee for something like a BMW 1502/Cortina GT I think.
The entry fee includes the organisation of the rally, the route books, hotels and some social gatherings but all other costs are yours to bear.
I bought a car I liked, as opposed to one that is ultra-competitive. This will depend upon how much you want to win or whether you are doing it for the experience and the enjoyment. I bought a 1963 Alfa Romeo Giulia Spider 1600 (Tipo 101); this was neither fast enough (i.e. it wasn’t a veloce) nor nimble enough (Mini) nor strong enough (Mercedes 220) to be a front runner. So think carefully.
This leads to the next issue which is age; you’ll fit in better on these endurance or regularity rallies if you have something that is in keeping with the spirit of the original rallies. Post Historic cars from 1974 are much more competitive but generally they will be excluded from being able to win the event outright. That is normally reserved for cars in production & to specification prior to 1967; although pre 1959 and even pre-war can also be cut of dates IIRC. Overall, the latest date for most events is 1981/83.
These are not events for stripped out racing/rallying cars but you can upgrade to, what I’d term, fast road period specification. This should also influence the choice of car because you need to know someone you trust with the appropriate knowledge of the car and the events to prepare it for you. This is perhaps, where my experience is unhelpful, except to point you in the right direction. I didn’t have the ability to prepare the car myself and used a long defunct specialist in the Midlands, with whom I spent far too much money; but I was never really happy with the result.
You have to have some mechanical and emotional sympathy; generally these are very hard events on you and the car and the relationship too for that matter of the driver/navigator. The first winter event broke the gearbox and we had to retire. We rented a Peugeot 106 and followed the rally to the end mind. The second event wrecked the engine and it needed a rebuild afterwards although it did complete the rally and get us home.
Some of the driving was on the edge; we needed snow chains to get off a Col at one point, most electrical items failed – the heater, the wipers, the horn; the dynamo (you lost time for fitting an alternator) was not up to the job and running with the main beam would kill the battery stone dead; we had two near offs, once braking on ice with the wheels locked up heading for a tree (practice cadence braking before you go) and again when in fog so impenetrable that the edge of the road used to rush up at you and try to throw you off the cliff edge.
But I’d love to do it again (the Alfa is long gone though) but the cost and particularly, the arrival of children, brought it to an end. I would recommend it without hesitation. Gratuitous photographs follow, naturally.
I was really intrigued to do some classic rallying with my wife as navigator and we booked the CRA Winter Challenge in 1999 before I had a car or knew anyone to prepare it.
There are a lot of choices; I can only talk about the one’s I made and hope that this may help you:
The CRA is now part of the Hero Group – which was linked above; there is a Winter Challenge in 2014 going from the UK to the South if France. The entry fee is in region of £4,000 GBP I think so this is not a small undertaking. Smaller, UK based events are run by local clubs and are cheaper but I only did just the one event in Wales, as a trial run for the European rally. There is an option to hire a car through Hero too but again that’s a recent introduction that I have no experience of. I believe the daily rate starts at about £150+VAT a day in addition to the entry fee for something like a BMW 1502/Cortina GT I think.
The entry fee includes the organisation of the rally, the route books, hotels and some social gatherings but all other costs are yours to bear.
I bought a car I liked, as opposed to one that is ultra-competitive. This will depend upon how much you want to win or whether you are doing it for the experience and the enjoyment. I bought a 1963 Alfa Romeo Giulia Spider 1600 (Tipo 101); this was neither fast enough (i.e. it wasn’t a veloce) nor nimble enough (Mini) nor strong enough (Mercedes 220) to be a front runner. So think carefully.
This leads to the next issue which is age; you’ll fit in better on these endurance or regularity rallies if you have something that is in keeping with the spirit of the original rallies. Post Historic cars from 1974 are much more competitive but generally they will be excluded from being able to win the event outright. That is normally reserved for cars in production & to specification prior to 1967; although pre 1959 and even pre-war can also be cut of dates IIRC. Overall, the latest date for most events is 1981/83.
These are not events for stripped out racing/rallying cars but you can upgrade to, what I’d term, fast road period specification. This should also influence the choice of car because you need to know someone you trust with the appropriate knowledge of the car and the events to prepare it for you. This is perhaps, where my experience is unhelpful, except to point you in the right direction. I didn’t have the ability to prepare the car myself and used a long defunct specialist in the Midlands, with whom I spent far too much money; but I was never really happy with the result.
You have to have some mechanical and emotional sympathy; generally these are very hard events on you and the car and the relationship too for that matter of the driver/navigator. The first winter event broke the gearbox and we had to retire. We rented a Peugeot 106 and followed the rally to the end mind. The second event wrecked the engine and it needed a rebuild afterwards although it did complete the rally and get us home.
Some of the driving was on the edge; we needed snow chains to get off a Col at one point, most electrical items failed – the heater, the wipers, the horn; the dynamo (you lost time for fitting an alternator) was not up to the job and running with the main beam would kill the battery stone dead; we had two near offs, once braking on ice with the wheels locked up heading for a tree (practice cadence braking before you go) and again when in fog so impenetrable that the edge of the road used to rush up at you and try to throw you off the cliff edge.
But I’d love to do it again (the Alfa is long gone though) but the cost and particularly, the arrival of children, brought it to an end. I would recommend it without hesitation. Gratuitous photographs follow, naturally.
Thanks so much for the input turbo blue. We are at the other end of the spectrum with kids on the verge of fleeing the nest so are keen to recapture some of the adventures we used to have on the road years ago. I have the Peking to Paris in my sights for 2016, so would like to get my hand in and gain a little experience before that. Interesting that you had the car prepared by "experts" but were never fully satisfied with the results. Something I am very concerned about as I will be having a large proportion of the prep work done by third parties as I have neither the facilities or the time to do it all myself.
Russwhitehouse said:
I have the Peking to Paris in my sights for 2016, so would like to get my hand in and gain a little experience before that.
That sounds fantastic; the ERA are headed up by Philip Young who used to run the CRA when we did the two Winter Challenge's so they have lots of experience. I don't have it but he did also write a book "How to Build a Low-cost Rally Car" which might be useful too.The cut off dates for classes are interesting. Pre-1941 and pre-1975 classes would create two very distinct camps; I'd be very tempted to go the whole hog and buy/prepare a pre-41 car but I have absolutely no experience of what/who or how (and you'll have to feel comfortable driving an 'old' car - the non-collapsible steering wheel shaft that pointed at your chest in the Alfa was good reason to be careful) so I'd probably cheat and get a Jeep Wagoneer!
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C402912
Russwhitehouse said:
Interesting that you had the car prepared by "experts" but were never fully satisfied with the results. Something I am very concerned about as I will be having a large proportion of the prep work done by third parties as I have neither the facilities or the time to do it all myself.
Historic endurance rallying has become increasingly popular so I think there are more specialists than when I was looking fourteen years ago; I'm sure some-one with more recent experience could point you in the right direction. I'd suggest that you join the ERA and speak to them or previous competitors - with a similar car (whatever you get)The best of luck.
TurboBlue said:
That sounds fantastic; the ERA are headed up by Philip Young who used to run the CRA when we did the two Winter Challenge's so they have lots of experience. I don't have it but he did also write a book "How to Build a Low-cost Rally Car" which might be useful too.
For background info' Philip was founder of the CRA and the original Pirelli Classic Marathon back in 1988. The book to have is 'How to Build a Successful Low Cost Rally Car' - you can buy a copy here http://www.endurorally.com/pages/how-to-build-a-su...OP, an ideal way of entering classic rallying is to join your local motorsports car club, or, your chosen weapon of choice's car club. These will have local register plot and bash type events held at weekends and often offer night rallies. You can gain a mass of experience from these before incurring the cost of a national or international road rally.
Think carefully as to which car you choose as all-out power is not what gets you to the finish line. It's reliability, low weight, and comfort. Read the book, buy the car, join your local club, go rallying and you'll have more fun possibly imaginable.
Thanks for the enthusiastic responses gents.I just tried to buy the book via the link kindly provided, but it gives it as out of stock. Curses!
Been looking at a couple of keenly priced Porsche 912s late 60s vintage. It's a model that seems to have a good record in competition, less lairy than it's big six cylinder brother and according to wikipedia, someone finished first in class and 7th overall in the 2012 London to Capetown. Anyone got any thoughts or previous experience with them?
Been looking at a couple of keenly priced Porsche 912s late 60s vintage. It's a model that seems to have a good record in competition, less lairy than it's big six cylinder brother and according to wikipedia, someone finished first in class and 7th overall in the 2012 London to Capetown. Anyone got any thoughts or previous experience with them?
Russwhitehouse said:
Anyone got any thoughts or previous experience with them?
All the disadvantages of the 911 (exploding spare part costs, rusty bodywork) without the fun (no flat six). Don’t let the low purchase cost fool you, there is not much difference between a 911 and a 912 in terms of upkeep/maintenance cost.
And if you buy a 912, never sit behind the wheel of a similar vintage 911 or it’ll ruin your day. That is my personal experience.
Edited by EricE on Tuesday 10th September 11:19
Russwhitehouse said:
I just tried to buy the book via the link kindly provided, but it gives it as out of stock. Curses!
Try here: http://www.classiccarproducts.co.uk/cgi-bin/ecom.c...This is a video my navigator took of a fellow competitor and friend in his 912 on a transit section between stages on the 2012 HERO Scottish Malts rally.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iY4llxJsLs
They can be made into nice little rally cars in my opinion but, as said above, they don't have a lot of grunt and can cost 911 cash to prep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iY4llxJsLs
They can be made into nice little rally cars in my opinion but, as said above, they don't have a lot of grunt and can cost 911 cash to prep.
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