Buying cars from dealers.
Discussion
I don't get why so many people appear to give money to dealers when they could get a much better deal tracking down a car from a private owner. I understand that there are certain situations where the dealer has managed to get his hands on exactly the rare beast you've been looking for, but for the most part, I think a better car/deal can be found elsewhere.
Being classic cars, there's a good chance the owner will be the enthusiast who's poured love and attention on the car and can speak honestly about it. A car dealer will have valeted the car, written a paragraph of puff before putting it up for twice the price. He will invariably know only surface information of the make/model/history but be fully versed in spin, intimidation and all the tricks in the book.
I was just looking at a few BMWs being sold buy a company named after a (now defunct) grade of petrol. They put them up for considerable money and yet don't even repair or rectify small little niggles like scuffed wheels or worn tyres.
I don't know where I'm going with this. Anyone care to offer a counterpoint to why we should give money to dealers?
Being classic cars, there's a good chance the owner will be the enthusiast who's poured love and attention on the car and can speak honestly about it. A car dealer will have valeted the car, written a paragraph of puff before putting it up for twice the price. He will invariably know only surface information of the make/model/history but be fully versed in spin, intimidation and all the tricks in the book.
I was just looking at a few BMWs being sold buy a company named after a (now defunct) grade of petrol. They put them up for considerable money and yet don't even repair or rectify small little niggles like scuffed wheels or worn tyres.
I don't know where I'm going with this. Anyone care to offer a counterpoint to why we should give money to dealers?
Most reputable dealers provide a warranty or the ability to fix any problems, they offer finance and p/x options and the chance to have a proper test drive. some people don't want to buy privately and prefer to buy from a shop. They will typically do a lot of work you won't even see before the car is put up for sale. That ropey old p/x you've just offloaded to them because you don't want the expense of fixing the brakes or welding the floor pan doesn't just fix itself because it's a dealer. Then they have the hassle of finding stock, bringing it back from all over the country so that you can show up in 1 place to see a good range.
You could apply your argument to any purchase but for some reason dealers are seen as the devil
It's a business and it's primary aim is to make a profit for its owners, if you don't like it, buy from somewhere else
You could apply your argument to any purchase but for some reason dealers are seen as the devil
It's a business and it's primary aim is to make a profit for its owners, if you don't like it, buy from somewhere else
decampos said:
Being classic cars, there's a good chance the owner will be the enthusiast who's poured love and attention on the car and can speak honestly about it. A car dealer will have valeted the car, written a paragraph of puff before putting it up for twice the price. He will invariably know only surface information of the make/model/history but be fully versed in spin, intimidation and all the tricks in the book.
Consider this....Being classic cars, there's a very good chance the owner believes his the best car available and be totally unrealistic on its true market value if it's a good car. Or else they know exactly every issue and have covered it up to the best of their ability ready for it to break down/fall apart for the next owner.
Are you suggesting a private seller doesn't valet the car, write a paragraph of fluff to sell their car? Or worse they believe that being a member of an owners club makes them the most trust worthy seller?
There's good and bad in both private and trade sales, it's not easy to sift the gems from the dung and for every gem you'll find 3 heaps of dung!
some, to some extent, additional rights and protection
trade-ins (even with classics)
finance offered
warranty
not having to deal with the general public (some people find this difficult and there are a lot very different people out there)
(hopefully) more accurate description of the vehicle's condition
ETA:
trade-ins (even with classics)
finance offered
warranty
not having to deal with the general public (some people find this difficult and there are a lot very different people out there)
(hopefully) more accurate description of the vehicle's condition
ETA:
decampos said:
there's a good chance the owner will be the enthusiast who's poured love and attention on the car and can speak honestly about it.
sorry but I disagree with this, many, even long term owners know very little about their cars and probably have rarely driven them so have no real idea how well the model could or should go and think "they all do that/are like that"Many owners / private sellers describe the car as THEY see it. That is why many of us are amazed at poor condition and/or presentation of their cars. A dealer is a little less likely to have a blinkered view. Of course many dealers are full of BS - but I would guess that private sellers can be just as bad.
The worst are the sellers masquerading as private, when they "do a bit of dealing" from their house.
The worst are the sellers masquerading as private, when they "do a bit of dealing" from their house.
mattman said:
Consider this....
Being classic cars, there's a very good chance the owner believes his the best car available and be totally unrealistic on its true market value if it's a good car. Or else they know exactly every issue and have covered it up to the best of their ability ready for it to break down/fall apart for the next owner.
Are you suggesting a private seller doesn't valet the car, write a paragraph of fluff to sell their car? Or worse they believe that being a member of an owners club makes them the most trust worthy seller?
There's good and bad in both private and trade sales, it's not easy to sift the gems from the dung and for every gem you'll find 3 heaps of dung!
Nail. Head. Right there.Being classic cars, there's a very good chance the owner believes his the best car available and be totally unrealistic on its true market value if it's a good car. Or else they know exactly every issue and have covered it up to the best of their ability ready for it to break down/fall apart for the next owner.
Are you suggesting a private seller doesn't valet the car, write a paragraph of fluff to sell their car? Or worse they believe that being a member of an owners club makes them the most trust worthy seller?
There's good and bad in both private and trade sales, it's not easy to sift the gems from the dung and for every gem you'll find 3 heaps of dung!
mattman said:
Or worse they believe that being a member of an owners club makes them the most trust worthy seller?
This has always made me laugh.A lot depends on how many of the car you are after are up for sale. If there are plenty, private sales can make sense as you won't waste a day travelling the country to see a badly described example.
There are good and bad on both sides of the fence but a good dealer will have started with good stock (because he has the knowledge to do so) and whilst you may b
h about the premium you are paying for this service, it can end up an awful lot cheaper in the long run.I sold my classic,TO A DEALER!,and he paid me what I was after.He even gave me an extra £100 to deliver it to his showroom.As you would expect it is now advertised for £10K more than he paid me,but I am happy.I`d had the car for over severn years and made a profit.It had a number of faults that I was loosing my rag with,I was fed up with it.
I tried unsuccessfully for over a month to find a buyer,with adverts on three classic sites.Lots of replies,mainly from Europe,but it was so difficult dealing with them all.One guy wanted me to take it to France to show it to him!!another meet me in Dover,and I got one of those PayPal,"delivery agent",scam offers.
The Dealer responded to the advert,paid me my target price and I delivered it 60 miles from my home in the UK,job done,easy.This very well known Dealer must have had best part of a million pounds worth of stock when I delivered mine,lots of cars just lying there,that was two months ago,most are still there,including my old car.
I tried unsuccessfully for over a month to find a buyer,with adverts on three classic sites.Lots of replies,mainly from Europe,but it was so difficult dealing with them all.One guy wanted me to take it to France to show it to him!!another meet me in Dover,and I got one of those PayPal,"delivery agent",scam offers.
The Dealer responded to the advert,paid me my target price and I delivered it 60 miles from my home in the UK,job done,easy.This very well known Dealer must have had best part of a million pounds worth of stock when I delivered mine,lots of cars just lying there,that was two months ago,most are still there,including my old car.
Old Merc said:
I sold my classic,TO A DEALER!,and he paid me what I was after.......
....The Dealer responded to the advert,paid me my target price and I delivered it 60 miles from my home in the UK,job done,easy.This very well known Dealer must have had best part of a million pounds worth of stock when I delivered mine,[b]lots of cars just lying there,that was two months ago,most are still there,including my old car.[/i]
The cars may be there for quite a while, but with classic car prices rising (in general), the dealer is not going to lose money on them. Basically their stock is an investment (although it does sound as if they have an over-inflated opinion as to the cars values based on what you're saying!).....The Dealer responded to the advert,paid me my target price and I delivered it 60 miles from my home in the UK,job done,easy.This very well known Dealer must have had best part of a million pounds worth of stock when I delivered mine,[b]lots of cars just lying there,that was two months ago,most are still there,including my old car.[/i]
Dealers,like all of us,are in business for one reason only,to make money! If they go about it with honesty,integrity,and keep a good reputation,good luck to them.People who buy their cars pay more maybe but should have more confidence in what they are getting.
As I said in my last post,my classic had a number of faults,these faults are now the Dealers problem.
He is the "expert" so my car was bought as seen.If the sale had been private I would have told the guy about all the faults,putting him off? or spent ££££`s correcting them.
Of course I could have persevered privately,sold the car for more money and kept quiet about the faults.
As I said in my last post,my classic had a number of faults,these faults are now the Dealers problem.
He is the "expert" so my car was bought as seen.If the sale had been private I would have told the guy about all the faults,putting him off? or spent ££££`s correcting them.
Of course I could have persevered privately,sold the car for more money and kept quiet about the faults.
Just bought an older car from a dealer, superb experience. Turn up on the hoof, get a test drive, ask them to do the legwork researching the history, have a sensible negotiation and get the right car for the right price. Bought and sold my last one in a similar way, just so easy.
If you've got plenty of time then private makes sense, I don't or couldn't be bothered to make time.
If you've got plenty of time then private makes sense, I don't or couldn't be bothered to make time.
decampos said:
I don't get why so many people appear to give money to dealers when they could get a much better deal tracking down a car from a private owner. I understand that there are certain situations where the dealer has managed to get his hands on exactly the rare beast you've been looking for, but for the most part, I think a better car/deal can be found elsewhere.
Being classic cars, there's a good chance the owner will be the enthusiast who's poured love and attention on the car and can speak honestly about it. A car dealer will have valeted the car, written a paragraph of puff before putting it up for twice the price. He will invariably know only surface information of the make/model/history but be fully versed in spin, intimidation and all the tricks in the book.
I was just looking at a few BMWs being sold buy a company named after a (now defunct) grade of petrol. They put them up for considerable money and yet don't even repair or rectify small little niggles like scuffed wheels or worn tyres.
I don't know where I'm going with this. Anyone care to offer a counterpoint to why we should give money to dealers?
Rubbish.Being classic cars, there's a good chance the owner will be the enthusiast who's poured love and attention on the car and can speak honestly about it. A car dealer will have valeted the car, written a paragraph of puff before putting it up for twice the price. He will invariably know only surface information of the make/model/history but be fully versed in spin, intimidation and all the tricks in the book.
I was just looking at a few BMWs being sold buy a company named after a (now defunct) grade of petrol. They put them up for considerable money and yet don't even repair or rectify small little niggles like scuffed wheels or worn tyres.
I don't know where I'm going with this. Anyone care to offer a counterpoint to why we should give money to dealers?
There are good and bad dealers and there are good and bad private sellers.
Whilst a dealer will be trying to make a profit this is usually achieved by buying well rather than selling high and a lot of their stock is obtained via dealer trades or PX.
My Dad is a Classic car dealer has been for 40+ years, he's in his 70s now, he doesn't do it for the money - never has, he does it because he loves it.
He rarely washes the cars and certainly hasn't ever hoovered one out, he frequently buys non runners or MOT failures and gets them fixed and back on the road.
One minute you are moaning about high prices the next you want more jobs done on the cars - jobs cost - the more that are done, the more it costs, the higher the price.
If a dealer has poor, overpriced stock no one will buy and he'll go out of business so how is there a problem ?
I can't see any advantage whatsoever by buying from a dealer, here's my reasoning:-
Like builders anyone can call themselves a car dealer - NO EXPERIENCE NEEDED WHATSOEVER, only requirement is to be a proficient liar and BS'er
Advantages of buying privately
1. You get to see where the cars lived whilst owned by seller,
2. You get to meet the seller - you can learn a lot from him by asking suitable questions, and his reactions to them.
3. Most classic owners are enthusiasts so are happy to spill the beans on problems they've had with the car and how they sorted them, and give insight into possible future problems.
4. You may get Spares/extra's thrown in with car which may add to the value of the purchase price you pay, when I bought my Lotus I got a used spare engine, set of original lotus steel wheels, original steering wheel [owner had fitted a motalita which wasn't standard] the original steeering wheel is like rockin' horse st - impossible to find and worth several £100's of pounds. I also had the worksop manual and all bills, Mot's and reciepts since car was new, and the seller knew the original owner and put me touch with him. Had a dealer bought this car he would have sold on these spares, and I would have had no possiblity of easy contact with original owner.
5. You're gonna get a better price since you ain't paying the dealer mark up.
None of the above would apply if you bought this car from a dealer.
Advantages of buying from Dealer
Maybe a warrantee - IMO not worth the value of the paper it's written on.- Checkout TV progs 'rogue traders' etc
Dealer knows nothin of the cars history, his only interest in it is to maximise his profit from it's sale.
So I can't think of any, other than being to boast to your mates about the excessive price you got Ripped off/Charged for your car, and point them in the direction of the dealers sticker in the back window
For me its private buys everytime
Like builders anyone can call themselves a car dealer - NO EXPERIENCE NEEDED WHATSOEVER, only requirement is to be a proficient liar and BS'er
Advantages of buying privately
1. You get to see where the cars lived whilst owned by seller,
2. You get to meet the seller - you can learn a lot from him by asking suitable questions, and his reactions to them.
3. Most classic owners are enthusiasts so are happy to spill the beans on problems they've had with the car and how they sorted them, and give insight into possible future problems.
4. You may get Spares/extra's thrown in with car which may add to the value of the purchase price you pay, when I bought my Lotus I got a used spare engine, set of original lotus steel wheels, original steering wheel [owner had fitted a motalita which wasn't standard] the original steeering wheel is like rockin' horse s
t - impossible to find and worth several £100's of pounds. I also had the worksop manual and all bills, Mot's and reciepts since car was new, and the seller knew the original owner and put me touch with him. Had a dealer bought this car he would have sold on these spares, and I would have had no possiblity of easy contact with original owner.5. You're gonna get a better price since you ain't paying the dealer mark up.
None of the above would apply if you bought this car from a dealer.
Advantages of buying from Dealer
Maybe a warrantee - IMO not worth the value of the paper it's written on.- Checkout TV progs 'rogue traders' etc
Dealer knows nothin of the cars history, his only interest in it is to maximise his profit from it's sale.
So I can't think of any, other than being to boast to your mates about the excessive price you got Ripped off/Charged for your car, and point them in the direction of the dealers sticker in the back window
For me its private buys everytime
Edited by S47 on Monday 7th October 12:14
1. You get to see where the cars lived whilst owned by seller,
No you don't - he might have stored it in a field
2. You get to meet the seller - you can learn a lot from him by asking suitable questions, and his reactions to them.
Not if they can tell lies - oh that's everyone
3. Most classic owners are enthusiasts so are happy to spill the beans on problems they've had with the car and how they sorted them, and give insight into possible future problems.
You're in cloud cookoo land - see lying above
4. You may get Spares/extra's thrown in with car which may add to the value of the purchase price you pay, when I bought my Lotus I got a used spare engine, set of original lotus steel wheels, original steering wheel [owner had fitted a motalita which wasn't standard] the original steeering wheel is like rockin' horse st - impossible to find and worth several £100's of pounds. I also had the worksop manual and all bills, Mot's and reciepts since car was new, and the seller knew the original owner and put me touch with him. Had a dealer bought this car he would have sold on these spares, and I would have had no possiblity of easy contact with original owner
Depends on the seller and the dealer - most don't want loads of useless crap so happily throw in whatever comes with the car.
.
5. You're gonna get a better price since you ain't paying the dealer mark up.
Rubbish - look in whatever paper you like much of the lower / middle priced stuff is the same price whether trade or private. My Dad is currently selling a mint Type 3 fastback - it's cheap. Because he took it in PX and doesn't like it, just wants it gone. He sold an STi impreza for £1200 - that's what he'd allowed in px and it wasn't his thing - I went mad as it was worth £3500 all day long.
There can be NO rules because if either was better then there would only be one way of buying / selling.
Look at ALL the cars you like then buy whichever one suits you - whether that car is owned by a private seller or trader is irrelevant.
BTW Who do you think clags up sills with paper and filler ? Or throws sawdust into gearboxes ?
It isn't the traders as they now they'll get taken to court / a ruined reputation.
No you don't - he might have stored it in a field
2. You get to meet the seller - you can learn a lot from him by asking suitable questions, and his reactions to them.
Not if they can tell lies - oh that's everyone
3. Most classic owners are enthusiasts so are happy to spill the beans on problems they've had with the car and how they sorted them, and give insight into possible future problems.
You're in cloud cookoo land - see lying above
4. You may get Spares/extra's thrown in with car which may add to the value of the purchase price you pay, when I bought my Lotus I got a used spare engine, set of original lotus steel wheels, original steering wheel [owner had fitted a motalita which wasn't standard] the original steeering wheel is like rockin' horse s
t - impossible to find and worth several £100's of pounds. I also had the worksop manual and all bills, Mot's and reciepts since car was new, and the seller knew the original owner and put me touch with him. Had a dealer bought this car he would have sold on these spares, and I would have had no possiblity of easy contact with original ownerDepends on the seller and the dealer - most don't want loads of useless crap so happily throw in whatever comes with the car.
.
5. You're gonna get a better price since you ain't paying the dealer mark up.
Rubbish - look in whatever paper you like much of the lower / middle priced stuff is the same price whether trade or private. My Dad is currently selling a mint Type 3 fastback - it's cheap. Because he took it in PX and doesn't like it, just wants it gone. He sold an STi impreza for £1200 - that's what he'd allowed in px and it wasn't his thing - I went mad as it was worth £3500 all day long.
There can be NO rules because if either was better then there would only be one way of buying / selling.
Look at ALL the cars you like then buy whichever one suits you - whether that car is owned by a private seller or trader is irrelevant.
BTW Who do you think clags up sills with paper and filler ? Or throws sawdust into gearboxes ?
It isn't the traders as they now they'll get taken to court / a ruined reputation.
Something so many people fail to realise is that dealers are normally well aware of a car's resale value at the point of purchase, and are better than anyone at buying well. Unless their operation is a brand led showroom that can bolster the value of a car simply by who they are, the fact is the car will sell for what it is worth, and no more.
I think the lies, cheating and deceptions are evenly distributed across private and trade sellers. I would however argue that the most caution has to be exercised at classic car auctions, which i remember being described by one noteable old dealer as "legalised fraud"! Even having said that I have seen some amazing restorations sell at auction for a fraction of build cost due to the vendor's poor location or timing.
I think the lies, cheating and deceptions are evenly distributed across private and trade sellers. I would however argue that the most caution has to be exercised at classic car auctions, which i remember being described by one noteable old dealer as "legalised fraud"! Even having said that I have seen some amazing restorations sell at auction for a fraction of build cost due to the vendor's poor location or timing.
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