£30k-£100k+ restorations. How common?
Discussion
I can imagine people with cash and no skills or time who want a perfect car can easily buy a car (like an e-type or XK124/140/150 or nice SL Merc etc) and then do a full back to metal job. Engine work alone can be £10k + on a simple engine.
I am interested in how these jobs are managed.
I am interested in how these jobs are managed.
I am visiting the smaller independent Bodyshops and many have now got several old car resto's on the go, as compared to insurance rates/jobs it is better work!
It is not uncommon to see £7K - £10K jobs in these facilities - because as classic cars rise in value owners will happily spend the money on them knowing they will get the money back.....
A basket case E-Type will need £50K+ to restore at a good restorers. CCC in Bridgnorth will charge £75k+ (but the quality is top notch)....Mark Evans spent £85K on his E-Type for a Car is Reborn series and that was 5 years ago...prices have increased since then...
It is not uncommon to see £7K - £10K jobs in these facilities - because as classic cars rise in value owners will happily spend the money on them knowing they will get the money back.....
A basket case E-Type will need £50K+ to restore at a good restorers. CCC in Bridgnorth will charge £75k+ (but the quality is top notch)....Mark Evans spent £85K on his E-Type for a Car is Reborn series and that was 5 years ago...prices have increased since then...
S47 said:
Don't understand why anyone would spend that kinda money on a scrap car, surely it would be better to spend that money on a decent car?
If you buy a project car then do all the work yourself, that's part of the classic car enjoyment
Interesting to hear other opinions regarding this
Your second point: If you buy a project car then do all the work yourself, that's part of the classic car enjoyment
Interesting to hear other opinions regarding this
DIY versus getting a professional to do it. This can be a matter of facilities, skills available. But even if you have a massive workshop and every piece of equipment needed to do a full mechanical and body rebuild, and the skills to do it, then it's still down to how you want to spend your life. If an amateur can work to professional standards - and some can work to higher than professional standards - then hats off to them. Not many people can regrind their own cranks. I can't even do hide trimming or welding. So for me, rather than acquire all the equipment, the workshop space, and the skills to do it I'd rather spend my time earning money doing what I do best, and paying the proceeds to people who do various aspects of car restoration better than I can do it. My car fun time is driving the thing round and enjoying it on the road. Other people's priorities are different, fair play to them.
Your first point:
Look down the list a bit at Lowdrag's second restoration of his E-Type.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
It's in no way a scrap car. Before he started the present work it was already comfortably one of the better E-Types in the country. He intends it to be one of the very best. This is its second full restoration, and I hope he lives long enough to do its third in another 20 years time.
He's spending a hefty sum on it now (I'd guess £30K) and that's an economical rebuild for an E-Type, if you want to get it to a really good standard. It's economical because restoring a car which has no serious problems is far less expensive than waiting for it to wear our or corrode, developing serious mechanical and body issues. If you regard a car as something to play with for a couple of years and move on, then that's perfectly legitimate but you probably should buy a fully restored car rather than get involved in restoration projects. But if like Lowdrag you intend to operate a car over many decades and keep it in excellent condition, then you need to spend the time and/or the money.
The Jag experts here will probably chip in but fom what I have seen, a seriously proper full restoration on an E-Type that's been allowed to get seriously ratty and worn out is way, way over £100K. And I know lots of people have spent big six-figure sums on early Porsche 911s. It's not uncommon at all.
Edited by Lowtimer on Thursday 24th October 22:01
Lowtimer
Good points
But anyone with reasonable size garage could rebuild any car you name, for sure I couldn't grind a crankshaft [one of the few things I can't do, and I can't do that simply because I don't have access to a crank grinding machine] - I'd get that done professionally, there's plenty of engine machine shops in UK you could use, but stripping, measuring, rebuilding an engine is well within the capabilities of anyone who's prepared to read up on the subject, this would be one of the easier parts of any classic car rebuild IMO. Rusty chassis well thats another matter - not difficult for the home mechanic, but much more awkward, with limited space. However if you have a double garage then that too is doable.
Good points
But anyone with reasonable size garage could rebuild any car you name, for sure I couldn't grind a crankshaft [one of the few things I can't do, and I can't do that simply because I don't have access to a crank grinding machine] - I'd get that done professionally, there's plenty of engine machine shops in UK you could use, but stripping, measuring, rebuilding an engine is well within the capabilities of anyone who's prepared to read up on the subject, this would be one of the easier parts of any classic car rebuild IMO. Rusty chassis well thats another matter - not difficult for the home mechanic, but much more awkward, with limited space. However if you have a double garage then that too is doable.
100K restorations are very common.
A lot of engine builds I do are for those types of job.
The top notch restoration business is very buoyant, in line with the classic car market. Many 'owners/ investors' are looking at the longer market, ie willing to take a hit now based on likely future values (yes, yes, we know the risks, but the owners are genuinely not of the stupid variety....)
Take for example, the AC Cobra MK11; gone up in value by well over 100K in the last year or so, probably more like 200k.
£100K restoration; not a problem Sir!
Doesn't make much sense with a Triumph Spitfire though....
A lot of engine builds I do are for those types of job.
The top notch restoration business is very buoyant, in line with the classic car market. Many 'owners/ investors' are looking at the longer market, ie willing to take a hit now based on likely future values (yes, yes, we know the risks, but the owners are genuinely not of the stupid variety....)
Take for example, the AC Cobra MK11; gone up in value by well over 100K in the last year or so, probably more like 200k.
£100K restoration; not a problem Sir!
Doesn't make much sense with a Triumph Spitfire though....
Its easy to see how restorations can soon add up, I bought a car that was totally knackered because I intended to have it completely rebuilt from a bare metal fully stripped shell and didn't want to pay good money to find lots of bodges by POs. By buying something in this condition it makes lots of decisions no brainers for example I didn't have to think about a retrim or try to restore the leather as it was ripped and worn beyond repair as was nearly every aspect of the car.
Have I spent more than I expected yes do I care no, Im glad I made the decision to do this now rather than wait until I retire, I have had lots of fun working on the car as Im doing as much as I can myself although the bodywork, paint and trimming went to professionals along with a few other jobs.
My car is worth what I have spent minus my labour so even if I had to sell it I would not be out of pocket which is nice to know, but if all the work had been done by professionals the car would have cost twice as much and unless you have a real attachment to the car it would have not been worth it.
Its also nice to know you have saved a car which if left for another couple of years may have been broken for parts
Have I spent more than I expected yes do I care no, Im glad I made the decision to do this now rather than wait until I retire, I have had lots of fun working on the car as Im doing as much as I can myself although the bodywork, paint and trimming went to professionals along with a few other jobs.
My car is worth what I have spent minus my labour so even if I had to sell it I would not be out of pocket which is nice to know, but if all the work had been done by professionals the car would have cost twice as much and unless you have a real attachment to the car it would have not been worth it.
Its also nice to know you have saved a car which if left for another couple of years may have been broken for parts
Its easy to see how restorations can soon add up, I bought a car that was totally knackered because I intended to have it completely rebuilt from a bare metal fully stripped shell and didn't want to pay good money to find lots of bodges by POs. By buying something in this condition it makes lots of decisions no brainers for example I didn't have to think about a retrim or try to restore the leather as it was ripped and worn beyond repair as was nearly every aspect of the car.
Have I spent more than I expected yes do I care no, Im glad I made the decision to do this now rather than wait until I retire, I have had lots of fun working on the car as Im doing as much as I can myself although the bodywork, paint and trimming went to professionals along with a few other jobs.
My car is worth what I have spent minus my labour so even if I had to sell it I would not be out of pocket which is nice to know, but if all the work had been done by professionals the car would have cost twice as much and unless you have a real attachment to the car it would have not been worth it.
Its also nice to know you have saved a car which if left for another couple of years may have been broken for parts
Have I spent more than I expected yes do I care no, Im glad I made the decision to do this now rather than wait until I retire, I have had lots of fun working on the car as Im doing as much as I can myself although the bodywork, paint and trimming went to professionals along with a few other jobs.
My car is worth what I have spent minus my labour so even if I had to sell it I would not be out of pocket which is nice to know, but if all the work had been done by professionals the car would have cost twice as much and unless you have a real attachment to the car it would have not been worth it.
Its also nice to know you have saved a car which if left for another couple of years may have been broken for parts
Its easy to see how restorations can soon add up, I bought a car that was totally knackered because I intended to have it completely rebuilt from a bare metal fully stripped shell and didn't want to pay good money to find lots of bodges by POs. By buying something in this condition it makes lots of decisions no brainers for example I didn't have to think about a retrim or try to restore the leather as it was ripped and worn beyond repair as was nearly every aspect of the car.
Have I spent more than I expected yes do I care no, Im glad I made the decision to do this now rather than wait until I retire, I have had lots of fun working on the car as Im doing as much as I can myself although the bodywork, paint and trimming went to professionals along with a few other jobs.
My car is worth what I have spent minus my labour so even if I had to sell it I would not be out of pocket which is nice to know, but if all the work had been done by professionals the car would have cost twice as much and unless you have a real attachment to the car it would have not been worth it.
Its also nice to know you have saved a car which if left for another couple of years may have been broken for parts
Have I spent more than I expected yes do I care no, Im glad I made the decision to do this now rather than wait until I retire, I have had lots of fun working on the car as Im doing as much as I can myself although the bodywork, paint and trimming went to professionals along with a few other jobs.
My car is worth what I have spent minus my labour so even if I had to sell it I would not be out of pocket which is nice to know, but if all the work had been done by professionals the car would have cost twice as much and unless you have a real attachment to the car it would have not been worth it.
Its also nice to know you have saved a car which if left for another couple of years may have been broken for parts
dpp
You're correct - better to buy a completely ratty car than a bodged one
I agree there's plenty of bodged cars for sale, a lot of these will have been bodged by Back street garages, [out to make a quick buck from the cars owner who has MUG embossed on his forehead] not home enthusiasts who do a much better job especially when they want to own the car for many years into the future, of course if they just want to get the car up to MOT standard to sell on for a fast profit they will also bodge it - plenty of them out there too, which is a shame
I'd love to rebuild a top car Lambo/fezza etc. I certainly wouldn't be throwing anything like £100K at it though.
You're correct - better to buy a completely ratty car than a bodged one
I agree there's plenty of bodged cars for sale, a lot of these will have been bodged by Back street garages, [out to make a quick buck from the cars owner who has MUG embossed on his forehead] not home enthusiasts who do a much better job especially when they want to own the car for many years into the future, of course if they just want to get the car up to MOT standard to sell on for a fast profit they will also bodge it - plenty of them out there too, which is a shame
I'd love to rebuild a top car Lambo/fezza etc. I certainly wouldn't be throwing anything like £100K at it though.
dpp said:
Its easy to see how restorations can soon add up, I bought a car that was totally knackered because I intended to have it completely rebuilt from a bare metal fully stripped shell and didn't want to pay good money to find lots of bodges by POs. By buying something in this condition it makes lots of decisions no brainers for example I didn't have to think about a retrim or try to restore the leather as it was ripped and worn beyond repair as was nearly every aspect of the car.
Have I spent more than I expected yes do I care no, Im glad I made the decision to do this now rather than wait until I retire, I have had lots of fun working on the car as Im doing as much as I can myself although the bodywork, paint and trimming went to professionals along with a few other jobs.
My car is worth what I have spent minus my labour so even if I had to sell it I would not be out of pocket which is nice to know, but if all the work had been done by professionals the car would have cost twice as much and unless you have a real attachment to the car it would have not been worth it.
Its also nice to know you have saved a car which if left for another couple of years may have been broken for parts
Exactly the approach I took with my TR6 in 1995, which is perfectly unfinished...Have I spent more than I expected yes do I care no, Im glad I made the decision to do this now rather than wait until I retire, I have had lots of fun working on the car as Im doing as much as I can myself although the bodywork, paint and trimming went to professionals along with a few other jobs.
My car is worth what I have spent minus my labour so even if I had to sell it I would not be out of pocket which is nice to know, but if all the work had been done by professionals the car would have cost twice as much and unless you have a real attachment to the car it would have not been worth it.
Its also nice to know you have saved a car which if left for another couple of years may have been broken for parts
S47 said:
dpp
I'd love to rebuild a top car Lambo/fezza etc. I certainly wouldn't be throwing anything like £100K at it though.
If the Lambo or Fezza had tripled in price to say £300K - and the car in question needed some serious wedge to keep it that bracket...it then makes sense to spend big on it? It is all relevant in the ball park the car is in. A £20K resto might be big money to spend on a MkII Escort, but it would not go far on an exotic? I'd love to rebuild a top car Lambo/fezza etc. I certainly wouldn't be throwing anything like £100K at it though.
I have not got £100K so this is not relevant - but my 300sl is worth spending a few grand on..as I will get it back!
I was drilled by the misses and friends last night about the cost effectiveness of restoring my Lancia.
I refuse to let them win, it would be cheaper for me to break the Lancia and buy another, but I don't want that, the way I see it is I'll be getting a lovely condition car back which I know the history of and another one will be saved from the scrap yard.
I refuse to let them win, it would be cheaper for me to break the Lancia and buy another, but I don't want that, the way I see it is I'll be getting a lovely condition car back which I know the history of and another one will be saved from the scrap yard.
There are some people here missing the point.
You need to look at top quality restorations and compare them with the home DIY job.
Buyers interested in serious classic cars, like E-Types, DB2's etc will soon spot the difference between restorations by professionals, and will of course want proof of the restorer's past performance.
I can personally vouch for the fact that there is no shortcut to acheiving a good quality end result.
How many DIYers have serious body-in-white skills needed for panel fit and even gaps, including lead-loading?
How many can carry out bare metal resprays to factory standards?
How many have gearbox and differential rebuild equipment and knowledge?
How many could rewire successfully with new looms?
How many could retrim a car's full interior to the standard of an expert?
How many could achieve correct ignition and fueling?
Add to this costs or quality, factory original body panels, rechroming, new sealing rubbers, glass, exhaust and a miriad or small replacement parts, and then tell me that I wouldn't be able to tell the difference at the end of the restoration.
I've seen XK150's that superficially look perfect, but have varied in selling price from £30,000 to £185,000 dependent purely on quality of restoration.
You need to look at top quality restorations and compare them with the home DIY job.
Buyers interested in serious classic cars, like E-Types, DB2's etc will soon spot the difference between restorations by professionals, and will of course want proof of the restorer's past performance.
I can personally vouch for the fact that there is no shortcut to acheiving a good quality end result.
How many DIYers have serious body-in-white skills needed for panel fit and even gaps, including lead-loading?
How many can carry out bare metal resprays to factory standards?
How many have gearbox and differential rebuild equipment and knowledge?
How many could rewire successfully with new looms?
How many could retrim a car's full interior to the standard of an expert?
How many could achieve correct ignition and fueling?
Add to this costs or quality, factory original body panels, rechroming, new sealing rubbers, glass, exhaust and a miriad or small replacement parts, and then tell me that I wouldn't be able to tell the difference at the end of the restoration.
I've seen XK150's that superficially look perfect, but have varied in selling price from £30,000 to £185,000 dependent purely on quality of restoration.
Shezbo said:
I am visiting the smaller independent Bodyshops and many have now got several old car resto's on the go, as compared to insurance rates/jobs it is better work!
It is not uncommon to see £7K - £10K jobs in these facilities - because as classic cars rise in value owners will happily spend the money on them knowing they will get the money back.....
A basket case E-Type will need £50K+ to restore at a good restorers. CCC in Bridgnorth will charge £75k+ (but the quality is top notch)....Mark Evans spent £85K on his E-Type for a Car is Reborn series and that was 5 years ago...prices have increased since then...
Your info is a bit out of date. It is not uncommon to see £7K - £10K jobs in these facilities - because as classic cars rise in value owners will happily spend the money on them knowing they will get the money back.....
A basket case E-Type will need £50K+ to restore at a good restorers. CCC in Bridgnorth will charge £75k+ (but the quality is top notch)....Mark Evans spent £85K on his E-Type for a Car is Reborn series and that was 5 years ago...prices have increased since then...
A comprehensive restoration of an E-type at a "name" will cost in excess of £120k.
Mark Evans spent £85k ten years ago, not five.
DaveEssex said:
There are some people here missing the point.
You need to look at top quality restorations and compare them with the home DIY job.
Buyers interested in serious classic cars, like E-Types, DB2's etc will soon spot the difference between restorations by professionals, and will of course want proof of the restorer's past performance.
I agree with all of that, though there are a few owners who have the skills and facilities to do a proper job. I'm thinking, for example, of the workmanship displayed in this thread a couple of months ago:You need to look at top quality restorations and compare them with the home DIY job.
Buyers interested in serious classic cars, like E-Types, DB2's etc will soon spot the difference between restorations by professionals, and will of course want proof of the restorer's past performance.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
S47 said:
Rusty chassis well thats another matter - not difficult for the home mechanic, but much more awkward, with limited space. However if you have a double garage then that too is doable.
That's a rather interesting point of view. In that case you could equally well ask why anyone buys food or say paintings, daubing some paint on to a canvas is the easiest thing imaginable. Toddlers manage it, so why pay someone else to.I've enjoyed rebuilding engines.
But my attempts at any sort of bodywork are embarrassing, and my painting just tends to look like a toddlers attempts.
I'd also probably prefer someone with more experience than me to handle the brakes and the more delicate areas of the suspension. Life could become ever so exciting, if a little brief if I found out I'd got something wrong arriving at a corner at 120MPH.
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