Originality or modernisation?
Discussion
I've been watching this trend for a few years, and I always felt that originality was the way to go. But I've just been reading an article in the JDC magazine on 5-speed boxes against the original, with six Xk's tested. An original Moss box, Toyota box, Tremec and Broadspeed and Getrag were all in the mix and to test them they had a mix of owners, but they only drove the other cars and not their own. The Moss box came out worst of course, being but four-speed and not a lot of synchro, some liked the slick Toyota, some didn't.
But it seems that today originality is dividing the camp into two factions. Me, I have Zeus brakes now and perhaps that is down to old age and reaction time, but I still have the Moss box. There is a current thread about a new wiring loom, something I have but made completely as it was in the day with no modern fuses. What are your opinions? Is modernisation the way to go or originality?
But it seems that today originality is dividing the camp into two factions. Me, I have Zeus brakes now and perhaps that is down to old age and reaction time, but I still have the Moss box. There is a current thread about a new wiring loom, something I have but made completely as it was in the day with no modern fuses. What are your opinions? Is modernisation the way to go or originality?
I suppose it depends why you want a "classic" car. I like classic cars because they are a more engaging experience - which usually means more tiring and hard work, but more rewarding when you're doing it right. If like me you only drive classic cars for pleasure then I would say originality is best - otherwise you dilute the whole point of it. Some people only drive classic cars because of the looks or the attention they attract which is fine and in that case perhaps modernisation may be good. If I did not have a modern car and used a classic every day I would be more inclined to modernise it.
I have an Elan +2 which is a model very often "modernised". People fit Ford Zetec engines and modern gearboxes and different chassis and different driveshafts and suspension. These almost certainly make it an easier car to live with and one that will withstand high mileage more easily and cheaply than if it were fitted with it's original Lotus twincam. I would argue that although a modernised one is almost definitely a better car in most measurable ways, it is no longer a 1970's Lotus Elan +2 - the experience is not the same at all so why bother.
To skip back to the original Jaguar example - I would think the modern gearbox is an improvement to the driving experience - but why not improve it immeasurably and just buy an XK8...
S..
I have an Elan +2 which is a model very often "modernised". People fit Ford Zetec engines and modern gearboxes and different chassis and different driveshafts and suspension. These almost certainly make it an easier car to live with and one that will withstand high mileage more easily and cheaply than if it were fitted with it's original Lotus twincam. I would argue that although a modernised one is almost definitely a better car in most measurable ways, it is no longer a 1970's Lotus Elan +2 - the experience is not the same at all so why bother.
To skip back to the original Jaguar example - I would think the modern gearbox is an improvement to the driving experience - but why not improve it immeasurably and just buy an XK8...
S..
I'm always one for originality, or at least any mods are very easily and quickly returned to original. I cringe when I see modern fuses on a classic car as they are unnecessary, good quality glass fuses are perfectly adequate.
It all boils down to condition; if the wiring (for example) is old, cracked, hardened, etc, and all the connectors (fuse connectors included, greasy and dirty, then invariably "Lucas" is blamed. But if it's all in perfect condition, then it will perform admirably.
To keep the value in the car, originality is the way to go.
It all boils down to condition; if the wiring (for example) is old, cracked, hardened, etc, and all the connectors (fuse connectors included, greasy and dirty, then invariably "Lucas" is blamed. But if it's all in perfect condition, then it will perform admirably.
To keep the value in the car, originality is the way to go.
Might be the fact that a lot of younger (under 50) owners have no experience of anything other than modern driving controls and technology .
Things like non synchromesh gearboxes , or a starting process beyond simply turning a key ,also the skill of actually driving through a series of bends being more than turning the wheel .
Mastering old vehicles to me is a lot of the fun , but I can understand the attraction of more reliable easier to drive classic cars .
Things like non synchromesh gearboxes , or a starting process beyond simply turning a key ,also the skill of actually driving through a series of bends being more than turning the wheel .
Mastering old vehicles to me is a lot of the fun , but I can understand the attraction of more reliable easier to drive classic cars .
For me if it's a museum piece or concourse trailor queen then sure, originality.
On the other hand if it's something that actually gets used and abused treat it like a classic house. If you bought a house built in 1850 to live in would you keep/revert it to original (remove all the electrical wiring/plumbing and replace with gas lights, lead water pipes, outside toilet, etc) or would you keep the essence and fabric of an 1850 house but update with modern convieniences?
To me a gearbox is a functional it, the the toilet in an old house. Yes, not having to walk outside to go to the loo/double de-clutch is not the authentic experience but if I had to use it, not just look at it I'd take the benifits of a modern inside toilet/gearbox.
On the other hand if it's something that actually gets used and abused treat it like a classic house. If you bought a house built in 1850 to live in would you keep/revert it to original (remove all the electrical wiring/plumbing and replace with gas lights, lead water pipes, outside toilet, etc) or would you keep the essence and fabric of an 1850 house but update with modern convieniences?
To me a gearbox is a functional it, the the toilet in an old house. Yes, not having to walk outside to go to the loo/double de-clutch is not the authentic experience but if I had to use it, not just look at it I'd take the benifits of a modern inside toilet/gearbox.
Edited by //j17 on Friday 21st August 09:38
For me its originality all the way, if an owner would like a syncro box don't by a car with a non syncro.
We are the custodians, like a house of a certain age look after it for what it is ready for the next custodian to enjoy. Failure to do this dilutes the manufacturers/builders intentions and we end up with a cobbold pastiche.
We are the custodians, like a house of a certain age look after it for what it is ready for the next custodian to enjoy. Failure to do this dilutes the manufacturers/builders intentions and we end up with a cobbold pastiche.
Edited by crankedup on Friday 21st August 09:54
//j17 said:
For me if it's a museum piece or concours trailor queen then sure, originality.
To me a gearbox is a functional item, the the toilet in an old house. Yes, not having to walk outside to go to the loo/double de-clutch is not the authentic experience but if I had to use it, not just look at it I'd take the benifits of a modern inside toilet/gearbox.
To me the whole point of driving out of date cars is the experience as the designer/manufacturer provided it. Changing gear is part of that, and I'm sorry for you if you can't cope with a non-synchromesh gearbox.To me a gearbox is a functional item, the the toilet in an old house. Yes, not having to walk outside to go to the loo/double de-clutch is not the authentic experience but if I had to use it, not just look at it I'd take the benifits of a modern inside toilet/gearbox.
A bit of post-period modification that doesn't affect the general experience, such as lights that permit the car to be seen after dark, I believe is acceptable.
I know this forum is mostly concerned with what I think of as modern old cars, but surely the same criterion applies to (e.g.) a Daimler Dart - I had 'em from 1966-79 as second-hand sports cars in daily use. I drove one of them back from Italy with failed clutch hydraulic cylinder, so the ability to change gear without de-clutching came in useful.
sparkey said:
I suppose it depends why you want a "classic" car. I like classic cars because they are a more engaging experience - which usually means more tiring and hard work, but more rewarding when you're doing it right. If like me you only drive classic cars for pleasure then I would say originality is best - otherwise you dilute the whole point of it. Some people only drive classic cars because of the looks or the attention they attract which is fine and in that case perhaps modernisation may be good. If I did not have a modern car and used a classic every day I would be more inclined to modernise it.
I have an Elan +2 which is a model very often "modernised". People fit Ford Zetec engines and modern gearboxes and different chassis and different driveshafts and suspension. These almost certainly make it an easier car to live with and one that will withstand high mileage more easily and cheaply than if it were fitted with it's original Lotus twincam. I would argue that although a modernised one is almost definitely a better car in most measurable ways, it is no longer a 1970's Lotus Elan +2 - the experience is not the same at all so why bother.
To skip back to the original Jaguar example - I would think the modern gearbox is an improvement to the driving experience - but why not improve it immeasurably and just buy an XK8...
Well put.I have an Elan +2 which is a model very often "modernised". People fit Ford Zetec engines and modern gearboxes and different chassis and different driveshafts and suspension. These almost certainly make it an easier car to live with and one that will withstand high mileage more easily and cheaply than if it were fitted with it's original Lotus twincam. I would argue that although a modernised one is almost definitely a better car in most measurable ways, it is no longer a 1970's Lotus Elan +2 - the experience is not the same at all so why bother.
To skip back to the original Jaguar example - I would think the modern gearbox is an improvement to the driving experience - but why not improve it immeasurably and just buy an XK8...
I agree that it's a trend as a result of younger people being attracted to the idea of a classic, purely from a 'looks' point of view rather than wanting to immerse themselves in the whole experience.
Interestingly, many years ago, there was much angst between 'classic car' owners and the 'custom car' scene, and yet, this 'modernisation' scene of today is exactly what the 70's and 80's custom car scene was doing with 'old' cars - fitting more modern running gear.
I'm going for negative earth and an alternator when my dynamo goes pop, due to the more efficient aspect. I've also upgraded from crossply to radial tyres, mainly for safety. Apart from that mine is standard and all the modifications would require 4 tyres and a dynamo and half an hour to change back. So yes I have slightly modernised it, but not enough to change the overall experience...
I agree with the majority on here, it's originality all the way for me with my cars. I have a Volvo Estate for everyday use and a fine car it is too for going shopping and stuff but my classics are my hobby. I enjoy every bit of the hunt, choosing the car, reading about their history etc. I want to enjoy the driving experience as it was in the 50s, 40s or 30s or whatever. I don't want modern 5 speed gearboxes or what have you because to me that reduces the pleasure I get from my cars.
lowdrag said:
I've been watching this trend for a few years, and I always felt that originality was the way to go. But I've just been reading an article in the JDC magazine on 5-speed boxes against the original, with six Xk's tested. An original Moss box, Toyota box, Tremec and Broadspeed and Getrag were all in the mix and to test them they had a mix of owners, but they only drove the other cars and not their own. The Moss box came out worst of course, being but four-speed and not a lot of synchro, some liked the slick Toyota, some didn't.
But it seems that today originality is dividing the camp into two factions. Me, I have Zeus brakes now and perhaps that is down to old age and reaction time, but I still have the Moss box. There is a current thread about a new wiring loom, something I have but made completely as it was in the day with no modern fuses. What are your opinions? Is modernisation the way to go or originality?
Depends entirely on:But it seems that today originality is dividing the camp into two factions. Me, I have Zeus brakes now and perhaps that is down to old age and reaction time, but I still have the Moss box. There is a current thread about a new wiring loom, something I have but made completely as it was in the day with no modern fuses. What are your opinions? Is modernisation the way to go or originality?
-intended use
-running budget
-type of vehicle in question
Originality is fine if:
-it's up to the intended job (often isn't)
-cost affective to fix & replace (many original parts on many cars are scarce of silly money)
-it's not a daily driver and doesn't matter if it might not work OR you have the money to keep it running no cost spared.
Janluke said:
I like to see old cars and bikes out on the road being used and enjoyed rather than at shows <or museums>.
An oft quoted remark but the two are not exclusive. I drive my classics on the road (and even race track) and show them too. I wonder about this misconception that if one cares for one's classic it's never driven? 
RichB said:
n oft quoted remark but the two are not exclusive. I drive my classics on the road (and even race track) and show them too. I wonder about this misconception that if one cares for one's classic it's never driven?
I appreciate that, I've a few classic bikes and show them now and again(always riding there and back). It just seems that more and more cars/bikes are being transported to shows and less driven/ridden. I always have a huge smile when I see something old out and about being used.Love your pics btw
I've always treated my classics like the rest of my possessions and adapted them to my needs if and when required. Consequently, my '63 Riley 1.5 has reclining seats for comfort, a brake servo, halogen headlamps and radial tyres for safety and Minilite wheels and a non-standard colour because I like them. I don't subscribe to this 'custodian' thinking and the last thing I consider is future owners and what they may prefer - carpe diem.
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