Justifying a Classic to the Greens
Discussion
Has anyone done a reasonably scientific assessment of the total damage to the environment of say a fifty year old classic car, sub 20 mpg, and all its running , restoration costs over that time, compared with say changing a car every five years, which would say be ten cars over that time to make calculations easier.
Of course it would need to be "on average" as specific cases can be extreme.
Is it an easy calculation as at first glance the amount of resources and CO2 needed to build ten cars would seem to outweigh the better fuel consumption and cleaner exhausts?
Of course it would need to be "on average" as specific cases can be extreme.
Is it an easy calculation as at first glance the amount of resources and CO2 needed to build ten cars would seem to outweigh the better fuel consumption and cleaner exhausts?
We had a highly qualified environmental scientist at work who was up to speed on these sorts of topics. I recall that her position on this question that it was better to keep an old car on the road than buy a new one, bearing in mind the energy and resources used in creating a new one. Her big argument was re-using water bottles; as she claimed more water was used in making a 500cl plastic bottle than it contained!
I've been thinking much the same over the past couple of days mainly because of the VW "scandal". Someone I know, who thinks he's very environmentally aware, has now decided that the entire European car making industry is using the same fiddle the figures software. He is most probably as we speak buying a prius as he no longer wants his low carbon golf which he only bought "to save the air his children and his children's children will breath".
I suggested that he looked at the whole life environmental cost of buying a new prius including the components in the batteries etc. and the costs of reprocessing these bits at the end of life but he couldn't see this from his high horse. He's only concerned with what comes out of the exhaust pipe, not what happens when making the car or the fuel it uses.
The odd things are, first he's an ent surgeon and I thought he'd know better. Second, he only lives about 6 miles from work. Why did he need a diesel in the first place?
I'm glad my daily driver at the moment is a 1997 bmw with 148k miles on the clock; I feel that the environmental cost of production has been negated over the years and miles.
I suggested that he looked at the whole life environmental cost of buying a new prius including the components in the batteries etc. and the costs of reprocessing these bits at the end of life but he couldn't see this from his high horse. He's only concerned with what comes out of the exhaust pipe, not what happens when making the car or the fuel it uses.
The odd things are, first he's an ent surgeon and I thought he'd know better. Second, he only lives about 6 miles from work. Why did he need a diesel in the first place?
I'm glad my daily driver at the moment is a 1997 bmw with 148k miles on the clock; I feel that the environmental cost of production has been negated over the years and miles.
Would not think that there was much future in reusing a VW or any other car which puts out forty times the emissions that it should.
Would not think that recycling was good if it takes more energy that it saves
We need some strong environmental arguments in the classic car world as it is inevitable that some politician will seize on the idea of a tax or a ban in the future for a little political point scoring.
If they really cared about the environment they would ban all hydrocarbon powered vehicles and make electric cars compulsory to be powered by sun and wind and tide and wave.
I do not know the total environmental cost of making a battery powered car but I would bet that it is less than making a hydrocarbon powered one.
All I am sure of is that they talk the environmental talk but what they really want is for everyone to be driving 16 mpg gas guzzlers like me preferably stuck in an all day traffic jam, laughing their heads off as all that tax revenue comes flowing in!
Would not think that recycling was good if it takes more energy that it saves
We need some strong environmental arguments in the classic car world as it is inevitable that some politician will seize on the idea of a tax or a ban in the future for a little political point scoring.
If they really cared about the environment they would ban all hydrocarbon powered vehicles and make electric cars compulsory to be powered by sun and wind and tide and wave.
I do not know the total environmental cost of making a battery powered car but I would bet that it is less than making a hydrocarbon powered one.
All I am sure of is that they talk the environmental talk but what they really want is for everyone to be driving 16 mpg gas guzzlers like me preferably stuck in an all day traffic jam, laughing their heads off as all that tax revenue comes flowing in!
There's a reasonably well supported model that says that half the energy consumed in a car's life is that used building it, the other half in its (say) 100k miles/10-12 year existence. Work backwards from there, bearing in mind that if your daiy driver is a BMW 2002, you probably don't do 20k miles a year.
Can't find the link but I think it was Greenpeace who came out with a figure of 17 years as the ideal age to change a car. This was the point where the benefit from improved exhaust emissions would outweigh the emissions created in manufacture. This was based on average mileage of something like 10k miles so the less miles you do the longer you should keep the car.
Of course all this depended on the idea the emissions in newer cars were reducing, something which it turns out may not be entirely the case...
Of course all this depended on the idea the emissions in newer cars were reducing, something which it turns out may not be entirely the case...
I wouldn't even attempt to justify anything to the greens , if it doesn't fit with their particular brand of eco drivel they will never listen .
I remember Seasick Steve telling of having this sort of conversation with his son who is an environment scientist , it went along the lines of , dad don't worry about using your old car , because if you use it for the rest of your life it won't pollute as much as just the manufacture of a modern eco car .
I remember Seasick Steve telling of having this sort of conversation with his son who is an environment scientist , it went along the lines of , dad don't worry about using your old car , because if you use it for the rest of your life it won't pollute as much as just the manufacture of a modern eco car .
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Smokin! 
My Mercedes 190e has always cruised its emission test (1990 2.0 litre)and I've always used that and the resources used for making it in the first place as my prime argument. In the light of the most recent VW ripoff/deceit/corporate arrogance - call it what you will- I reckon I'm still ahead. I also have an old Jaguar, to which the argument is that it's an enormous amount of fun, doesn't do that many miles a year, and if you don't like that then hop it and don't annoy me! (also a style icon and I ought to get a grant from the Arts Council)
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