Kugelfischer Fuel Injection

[slurpysi]

I have a Peugeot 504 Coupe which we are getting ready to put back on the road.

We are having trouble getting the fuel injection (which I believe is a Kugelfischer system as per the BMW 2002) to work properly. It has been suggested to me the best way is to take it off and overhaul the entire system.

Does anyone know anyone in the UK who could perform this - most specialists seem to be in the USA or Europe ?

Thanks

[anonymous-user]

Not in the UK but apparently they speak good English, and recommended by one of the UK Peugeot clubs:

http://www.clubpeugeotuk.org/news/kugelfischer-inj...

Also these guys appear to supply refurb/exchange units

http://www.lucasdevelopment.co.uk/

[Skyedriver]

Apologies for the egg sucking lesson but are you sure you are setting it up correctly>
I had a 2002tii for 6 years and the set up, length of linkages etc was critical.
Failing that, if it's been stood, could it be old petrol or crud in the system.
Another old failing on the tii was rust in the fuel tank being sucked onto the filter in the tank. Eventually the filter was blocked and the car stuttered to a halt. Once stopped, the rust fell to the bottom of the tank. Then the whole scenario started again.
good luck with it, it's a remarkable system once running properly

[Old Merc]

I`ve rebuilt a 504 and a 404 with Kugelfischer fuel injection.On both cars I had the pump overhauled by these guys
https://www.yell.com/biz/nottingham-diesel-service...
Talk to a guy called Steve,he just loves talking Kugelfischer.
The most common cause of pump failure is it running short of lubricating oil.Also it can attract moisture which jam up the injector valves in the pump.
The 504 will have the KF5 system with an altitude corrector.As you well know there are so many different pipes fitted to the inlet manifold and its very important they are in the correct place.As said above clean fuel is essential,so is the fuel feed line pressure.(2.5 - 3 bar).If the system has been left dry it will need bleeding,just like an old diesel.Start at the fuel filter on the bulk head,unions on the pump,finaly crank the engine and slacken each injector pipe.Remember though its PETROL !! be very carefull,3 bar pressure you will have it squirting all over the place.

[slurpysi]

Ok, thanks for all the feedback

Basically it is over fuelling. I am no mechanic but my garage say they have adjusted it right back and it still supplies too much petrol and ultimately chokes up the spark plugs.

any suggestions ?

[Old Merc]

It sounds to me that it's a pump off job.Believe me if the internals are correct the engine will run perfectly without any adjustments.I learned the hard way years ago with my 404,spent ages doing allsorts to the pump without success.A rebuild by Steve at Nottingham (tel [phone])and it ran perfectly.Give him a call and he will put you straight.
There are only three things I can surgest. 1st the thermostat enricher? (bottom R/H corner)when the engine is warmed up there should be a small gap between the lever and the adjusting part.

2nd.The cold start injector,which is located bulk head end of the inlet manifold,one small fuel pipe and one wire.
This should only operate when the starter motor is engaged and cranking the engine.If for any odd electrical fault or incorrect wiring it could carry on when the engine fires up.? causing excess fuel in the inlet manifold.
3rd.Are you using the Peugeot 504 original electric fuel delivery pump? if not make sure the line pressure is between 2 and 3 bar.Most after market pumps and 505 bosch pumps deliver over 5 bar.

[Skyedriver]

Is there a plastic pipe that returns fuel to the tank?
Blocked, nipped?

[Old Merc]

Skyedriver said:

Is there a plastic pipe that returns fuel to the tank?
Blocked, nipped?

Yes there is I forgot that,I should have mentioned that as item 4 above.

It's a metal pipe all along the underside with rubber flexibles to the injection pump and to the tank.
It's always best to replace these old fuel hoses as they perish and can collapse inside causing blockages.

[trampintransit]

Dunno if you solved the problem but I may have useful info for you....I had a Kugelfisher injected 504 coupe that ran rich..over a year it got worse until it was nearly undriveable and impossible to start when hot.
I removed and checked everything related to the delivery of fuel .. eventually removed the pump and stripped and cleaned it...nothing made a bit of difference. One day a pal who's a proper old school motorcycle mechanic visited me. We stood staring at this engine chuntering away, idling like a pig and stinking of fuel at the back end. He simply stood there staring at it for about a minute, then reached forward and poked the throttle butterfly spindle,and pushed it gently ...the engine changed dramatically ...it sounded wonderful

Turns out that the spindle bushing was worn, allowing air to bleed into the intake tract behind the butterfly ...contrary to normal experience, instead of causing weak running as you'd expect with air leaks into the intake...the leak causes REDUCED VACUUM which the pump's reference ( via the pipe to the plenum chamber ) reads as an opening throttle and thus up fuels the engine 'thinking' the engine is turning harder than it is.

Simply squirting spray grease onto the ends of the spindle transformed the car by sealing the spindle ends and it drove beautifully pending a rebush.

[e21Mark]

When running right it's a damn fine injection system. I loved my old 02tii.

Hope you're able to get it sorted.

[Skyedriver]

Loved mine too
HTY 817L I think it was. Still going I understand.

[slurpysi]

Hi all,

I still have not got the 504 back on the road, despite having pulled apart, been through and set up the injection system.

I basically had enough at the weekend and left it to its fate on fleabay...really annoying as it is really nice to drive (not far obviously)

However, trampintransit's comments have given me hope, exactly the same issues, so will be out there tonight to see if the suggestion works.

Thanks

[E24man]

If it helps I had a BMW 2002tii with Kugelfischer.

There were mechanical bars, swivels and pivots between the pump and the butterfly; no cables and absolutely no electronics. On one page of the BMW Owners Manual were instructions on how to exactly synchronise the pump and the butterfly valve. Doing this regularly (every six months or so IIRC) really helped the running and was the critical set-up for the correct mixture.

IIRC there was a notch in the plate that operates on the side of the pump that you had to align with a hole on the side of the pump body itself. Once that was set (I made up a small bar with a correct size diameter pin) you then set up the butterfly with marks inside the throttle body cover plate.

I have never seen the precise bits and pieces on the Peugeot engine but I suspect it will be a similar set-up as correctly metering the air to fuel ratio was critical to all Kugelfischer systems as far as I know.

Incidentally, when one injector was found to be weeping we had them cleaned, flow tested and reset by a guy who mainly worked on tractor diesel systems. They all worked perfectly after that.

HTH