Which is the quickest junior pre-war sportscar?
Discussion
We are quite spoiled with data available on the performance of modern and near-modern sportscars (from independently measured acceleration, to proper laptimes). However, data on older classic cars is much more difficult to find.
I was recently thinking about a number of pre-war sportscars and I found myself unable to rank them in terms of performance, nor to figure a realistic magnitude of their performance (am I looking at 0-60 times around 10, 20 or 30 seconds?).
I then thought it could be a fun discussion topic for PH... Rank a number of cars in terms of performance (say acceleration, top speed and even laptimes)...
The cars I had in mind were of the junior league, which are more obscure (there are significant data available for top supercars such as Bugatti 35, Alfa 8C, Bentley Blowers, etc.). My initial list included: Amilcar CGSS, Bugatti Brescia, Bugatti 40/44/49, Frazer Nash Boulogne/Shesley/etc, Lea-Francis Hyper, Lagonda Rapier, MG F/L/K/N Series, Riley 9 and/or 15/6, Salmson Grand Sport, Talbot 90/105, Wolseley Hornet Specials.
Very happy to have any comments and or further additions to the list.
I was recently thinking about a number of pre-war sportscars and I found myself unable to rank them in terms of performance, nor to figure a realistic magnitude of their performance (am I looking at 0-60 times around 10, 20 or 30 seconds?).
I then thought it could be a fun discussion topic for PH... Rank a number of cars in terms of performance (say acceleration, top speed and even laptimes)...
The cars I had in mind were of the junior league, which are more obscure (there are significant data available for top supercars such as Bugatti 35, Alfa 8C, Bentley Blowers, etc.). My initial list included: Amilcar CGSS, Bugatti Brescia, Bugatti 40/44/49, Frazer Nash Boulogne/Shesley/etc, Lea-Francis Hyper, Lagonda Rapier, MG F/L/K/N Series, Riley 9 and/or 15/6, Salmson Grand Sport, Talbot 90/105, Wolseley Hornet Specials.
Very happy to have any comments and or further additions to the list.
plasticpig said:
I think the BSA Scout would slot into that list
Definitely.Although in terms of speed/acceleration it would probably be at the bottom of the list.
My initial idea would be that they rank as follows:
1 (quickest) Talbot 90/105 (c.100hp - I would imagine around 100mph and 13-15 sec to 60)
2. Frazer Nash Boulogne/Shesley/etc (c.70hp but very light - must be not far from the talbot)
3. Bugatti 49 (105hp 90mph?)
4. Lea-F Hyper (70hp - 85mph)
5. Salmson Grand Sport (55hp 80mph but quick acceleration as very light?)
6. Lagonda Rapier (50-70hp - 75mph, 20something sec to 60)
7. Bugatti Brescia and 44 (40-50hp - maybe 80mph, 20something + to 60, the 44 has more like 90hp, but much heavier)
8. MG (40-60hp - similar?)
9. Riley (50-60hp) , Wolseley (45-50hp) and Amilcar (40-50hp) approx the same? 70mph+?
10. BSA Scout (30-40hp - 65mph?).
That's just my guesstimate, based on the limited information available. All corrections are very welcome: that's actually the point of my post!
It's hard to grasp your definition as you include Riley 9 but not MG Midgets and such rarities as Riley 15/6 where next to no Sports were made, but no BMWs or Alfa Romeos of which there were hundreds.
Once you know what cars you are interested in contemporary magazine road tests (The Autocar and Motor in the UK) are the best source of objective measured speeds and acceleration.
Once you know what cars you are interested in contemporary magazine road tests (The Autocar and Motor in the UK) are the best source of objective measured speeds and acceleration.
THank you for the replies (and for recommending Boddy's book).
I already delved into my old magazines' and old "brooklands books" anthologies, but there's nothing on most cars. As soon as I find some time I'll update the list with the data I have, but I think that will still leave significant space for discussion.
As for the car list, it's just a list of cars about which I am curious and on which I have limited info (bmw and alfas are not included as there are two complete brooklands books anthologies on them, but happy to include them), nothing overly scientific in the group definition.
Thank you!
I already delved into my old magazines' and old "brooklands books" anthologies, but there's nothing on most cars. As soon as I find some time I'll update the list with the data I have, but I think that will still leave significant space for discussion.
As for the car list, it's just a list of cars about which I am curious and on which I have limited info (bmw and alfas are not included as there are two complete brooklands books anthologies on them, but happy to include them), nothing overly scientific in the group definition.
Thank you!
I would add an Austin 7 Sports, (Ulster etc) to that list, a decently sorted one will out accelerate a lot of bigger stuff due to it's weight.
Comparing times from VSCC hill climbs and sprints may help, although after 80 years of development and use of modern materials for engine components some are a lot more powerful then when first made.
Comparing times from VSCC hill climbs and sprints may help, although after 80 years of development and use of modern materials for engine components some are a lot more powerful then when first made.
Yes, Austin, post-period development does often result in uncharacteristic relative performance.
The best VSCC event for comparing vehicle performance was the Colerne sprint which was a simple standing start kilometre. The driver's competance was still relevant but not as much so as at (say) Prescott.
The best VSCC event for comparing vehicle performance was the Colerne sprint which was a simple standing start kilometre. The driver's competance was still relevant but not as much so as at (say) Prescott.
austin said:
I would add an Austin 7 Sports, (Ulster etc) to that list, a decently sorted one will out accelerate a lot of bigger stuff due to it's weight.
Comparing times from VSCC hill climbs and sprints may help, although after 80 years of development and use of modern materials for engine components some are a lot more powerful then when first made.
I was just about to add the A7 Ulster, it would be rude not to! Still an extremely popular and class competitive sporting car.Comparing times from VSCC hill climbs and sprints may help, although after 80 years of development and use of modern materials for engine components some are a lot more powerful then when first made.
Allan L said:
Yes, Austin, post-period development does often result in uncharacteristic relative performance.
The best VSCC event for comparing vehicle performance was the Colerne sprint which was a simple standing start kilometre. The driver's competance was still relevant but not as much so as at (say) Prescott.
As a novice I did 77 mph in my standard Anzani engined Nash at Colerne. I now have a Meadows engine no idea of top speed but it is much faster. The best VSCC event for comparing vehicle performance was the Colerne sprint which was a simple standing start kilometre. The driver's competance was still relevant but not as much so as at (say) Prescott.
Rob
A lot of these are not even remotely in the "Junior" league. Some small cars of the time are surprisingly fast, like the Fraser Nash mentioned. I think most Midgets would manage 70 mph or so, with steering and braking rather better than the average car of the time. How about a Singer "Le Mans" replica?
Shamelessly copied from the internet:-
However, out of 77 cars reported on by The Autocar in 1935 only two managed to exceed 100 m.p.h. and then only on the fastest one-way run and by less than a clear m.p.h. and both were open cars, a 4 1/2-litre Lagonda Rapide and a 28.8-h.p. Railton sports. But if you count the summary of 141 recent road-test reports which appears at the back of a similar journal in 1971 you will find that 66 cars exceeded 100 m.p.h., the Chevrolet Sting Ray by a clear 45.7 m.p.h. Indeed, the once-magic "ton" is obtainable today from fairly ordinary cars such as Ford Capri 1600GT, Cortina 2000 GTX, Executive Zodiac, 1 1/2-litre Opel Manta, Peugeot 504FI, Renault 16TS, etc., and an Austin/ Morris 1300 will exceed 90 m.p.h. It was rather different 36 years ago, when Britain's fastest closed car, the Ford V8, could only manage a timed 82.38 m.p.h., 4-litres of Hupmobile saloon 78.26 m.p.h., the Renault's Big Six 76.92 m.p.h. and an Austin 18 York saloon a mere 65.22 m.p.h. A Paris-Nice Hotchkiss saloon clocked 95.74 m.p.h., a Chrysler Airflow saloon 92.78 m.p.h., on one-way runs. These were big and costly cars 36 years ago; today cars such as the Morris 1800S, Simca 1501W, Vauxhall VX 4/90 and VW 411LE are quicker...
What about acceleration? The target for a modern high-performance car should be to 60 m.p.h. in 10 sec., although you often have to allow another second and some fractions and 12 sec. is acceptable. In 1971 you get it from Alfa Romeo 1750, Audi 1000LS, BMW 2000, Bond Equipe, Chrysler Valient, Citroën DS21 Pallais, Fiat 124 1600 coupé, Fiat 125 Special, Ford Escort Mexico, Cortina 2000 GT, Capri 2000GT, Jaguar XJ6, Mini Cooper S and Reliant Scimitar GTE, without invoking sports cars or exotic makes.
Before the War about the only car to break the 0 to 60 in 10 sec. barrier was the Railton. A 1935 Light Sports tourer clocked 9.8 sec. (with 100.56 m.p.h. top speed), or 8.8 sec. and 107.14 m.p.h. stripped for racing. A 1934 Railton-Terraplane tourer did 9.2 sec. (top speed, 88.24 mph.). So maybe the VSCC is justified in including Railtons in its p.v.t. category. In 1934 the 9 1/2-litre Hispano-Suiza coupé achieved 12.0 sec.
However, out of 77 cars reported on by The Autocar in 1935 only two managed to exceed 100 m.p.h. and then only on the fastest one-way run and by less than a clear m.p.h. and both were open cars, a 4 1/2-litre Lagonda Rapide and a 28.8-h.p. Railton sports. But if you count the summary of 141 recent road-test reports which appears at the back of a similar journal in 1971 you will find that 66 cars exceeded 100 m.p.h., the Chevrolet Sting Ray by a clear 45.7 m.p.h. Indeed, the once-magic "ton" is obtainable today from fairly ordinary cars such as Ford Capri 1600GT, Cortina 2000 GTX, Executive Zodiac, 1 1/2-litre Opel Manta, Peugeot 504FI, Renault 16TS, etc., and an Austin/ Morris 1300 will exceed 90 m.p.h. It was rather different 36 years ago, when Britain's fastest closed car, the Ford V8, could only manage a timed 82.38 m.p.h., 4-litres of Hupmobile saloon 78.26 m.p.h., the Renault's Big Six 76.92 m.p.h. and an Austin 18 York saloon a mere 65.22 m.p.h. A Paris-Nice Hotchkiss saloon clocked 95.74 m.p.h., a Chrysler Airflow saloon 92.78 m.p.h., on one-way runs. These were big and costly cars 36 years ago; today cars such as the Morris 1800S, Simca 1501W, Vauxhall VX 4/90 and VW 411LE are quicker...
What about acceleration? The target for a modern high-performance car should be to 60 m.p.h. in 10 sec., although you often have to allow another second and some fractions and 12 sec. is acceptable. In 1971 you get it from Alfa Romeo 1750, Audi 1000LS, BMW 2000, Bond Equipe, Chrysler Valient, Citroën DS21 Pallais, Fiat 124 1600 coupé, Fiat 125 Special, Ford Escort Mexico, Cortina 2000 GT, Capri 2000GT, Jaguar XJ6, Mini Cooper S and Reliant Scimitar GTE, without invoking sports cars or exotic makes.
Before the War about the only car to break the 0 to 60 in 10 sec. barrier was the Railton. A 1935 Light Sports tourer clocked 9.8 sec. (with 100.56 m.p.h. top speed), or 8.8 sec. and 107.14 m.p.h. stripped for racing. A 1934 Railton-Terraplane tourer did 9.2 sec. (top speed, 88.24 mph.). So maybe the VSCC is justified in including Railtons in its p.v.t. category. In 1934 the 9 1/2-litre Hispano-Suiza coupé achieved 12.0 sec.
RobMk2a said:
I did 77 mph in my standard Anzani engined Nash at Colerne.
... and I was just behind you at 66mph in my Alvis 12/50 tourer.The Alvis SD Beatleback version was sold as 80mph guaranteed, demonstration at Brooklands on request. A lightened "prototype" version won the Junior Car Club's 200 mile race in 1923, at 93mph. MotorSport
LAT Picture
Good to see your Nash out at The Phoenix yesterday.
Well, sorry for the long absence, but it took a while to gather data from my archive... here a list of the cars on which I have data from actual contemporary road tests. I think it makes for an interesting reading, although unfortunately it doesn't really help much with my initial list...)
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