How do Barn Finds Make Sense?

[Mr Tidy]

I went to the viewing day for H & H at Duxford on Tuesday with a mate of mine who was doing some research on a car that was in the sale because he has a similar one - and it's a great day out anyway!

But we looked at a wreck of an E-Type that had it's cylinder head in the boot and one of the head studs bent about 70 degrees out of vertical, pistons rusted up, rot everywhere and the passenger door wouldn't open - not because it was locked!

It came with a bonnet, and while it wasn't rusty it had dents and ripples all over it.

And yet it made what seems to me stupid money - link here:- https://online.handh.co.uk/m/lot-details/index/cat...

Surely it has to make sense to buy a decent one in the first place, or have I missed something?

[555 Paul]

I can only think that it's the pleasure of restoring it because more often than not it's cheaper to buy one that's already been restored/looked after.

To me it's a mugs game for people with more money than sense.

[jjohnson23]

I think some of it is down to 'barn find' bullst and a lot is down to auction frenzy.
Too many in the classic car game looking to make big profits rather than have cars because they want them in my opinion,and don't they cry when it all goes wrong!
E types,especially early models seem to have the ability to generate enormous values so hence the high prices at auction,they are gorgeous when done right though.

[Mr Tidy]

555 Paul said:

I can only think that it's the pleasure of restoring it because more often than not it's cheaper to buy one that's already been restored/looked after.

To me it's a mugs game for people with more money than sense.

So it's really more about the journey than the destination - but maybe it could be a game for people with more time than money? Still looks crazy to me, but someone was keen!

[lowdrag]

That may well have been snapped up by one of the big restoration houses. They demand - and get - enormous prices for their cars. Have a look here for example:-

https://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/jaguar/e-type...

While the car sold at H&H for £42,000, it wouldn't take £200,000 to restore.

[2xChevrons]

lowdrag said:

That may well have been snapped up by one of the big restoration houses. They demand - and get - enormous prices for their cars. Have a look here for example:-

https://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/jaguar/e-type...

While the car sold at H&H for £42,000, it wouldn't take £200,000 to restore.

It's this. If you're a firm with the existing facilities, skills, equipment and knowledge to perform a complete restoration of an E-type, a 'barn find' that is in largely original (if very tatty) condition and has 'matching numbers' is more than worth it financially, and the end result is much more desirable to collectors because of that originality and provenance. Even taking into account the 'Ship of Theseus' aspect of how much of the 'barn find' is actually left by the time it reappears all shiny and with a £250,000 price tag.

[Mr Tidy]

lowdrag said:

That may well have been snapped up by one of the big restoration houses. They demand - and get - enormous prices for their cars. Have a look here for example:-

https://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/jaguar/e-type...

While the car sold at H&H for £42,000, it wouldn't take £200,000 to restore.

Well I see what you mean, but there were some good usable E-Types for sale for less than £100K - I would have thought they were a better starting point.

[lowdrag]

For some unfathomable reason, people seem to prefer to buy a wreck and then give their bank account to a second hand car dealer who promises to return them a bright shiny new car which they then will polish and never use except to go to the pub on the two Sundays a year when there is a clear blue sky. You must understand that these cars are not for driving, just polishing, since use will reduce the value. These are the same people who happily and willingly lose £25,000 the moment they drive their brand new Beemporker out of the showroom. Of course, that is completely different since one is justified as a "tax deductible business expense" (which we all know it isn't) and the other an "investment". I have now been certified insane because I was seen driving my E-type last week, top down, in the rain. But I reasoned with them, pointing out that my Panzerwagen was safely at home in the dry.

[Dr Jekyll]

There is a theory among some classic car fans that any E type or similar that appears to be in good condition will have been restored 3 times by now, and probably at least one of those will be a bodged job. So if you want one you know is in genuinely good condition you may as well get a barn find rather than get a 'well presented' one and strip it down and rebuild.

[Andy 308GTB]

Dr Jekyll said:

There is a theory among some classic car fans that any E type or similar that appears to be in good condition will have been restored 3 times by now, and probably at least one of those will be a bodged job. So if you want one you know is in genuinely good condition you may as well get a barn find rather than get a 'well presented' one and strip it down and rebuild.

This.
The barn find is a known quantity. I've seen an E-Type built from a propshaft, bulkhead, engine block and of course, the log book. It had come from a Irish 'barn' and when I saw the bits piled up outside one of the best restorers in the country I assumed it was awaiting a skip... wrong.

[lowdrag]

With the price of classics as they are today, one only needs a buff log book to make money. Cars are valued far above what they cost to build or rebuild. I have a friend who has two cars and races both of them. I estimate the value of the cars to be around £10 million, but he insures them for £500,000 when he is racing. That is the rebuild cost of both of them, not the market value. On the subject of the number of rebuilds, my E-type was restored in 1987:-

E-type rebuild 1987 by Tony Brown, on Flickr

She was done so well that 90,000 miles later all she needed, for her second rebuild in my possession, were new floor pans and a bit of rust removed.

Front near side by Tony Brown, on Flickr

The cost of the first rebuild was about 80% of the finished value of the car, the second one about 25%. You can't write an E-type off nowadays, especially if it is an early one.

[swooshiain]

lowdrag said:

I have now been certified insane because I was seen driving my E-type last week, top down, in the rain. But I reasoned with them, pointing out that my Panzerwagen was safely at home in the dry.

[eccles]

Dr Jekyll said:

There is a theory among some classic car fans that any E type or similar that appears to be in good condition will have been restored 3 times by now, and probably at least one of those will be a bodged job. So if you want one you know is in genuinely good condition you may as well get a barn find rather than get a 'well presented' one and strip it down and rebuild.

You have to remember though, that the car was taken off the road for a reason. The other thing to remember is that in the 'good old days' people used to bodge their cars with pop rivets, cardboard and filler to get them through an MOT. So a superficially good looking car can hide a multitude of expensive to fix sins.

[EXKAY120]

As long as its got matching numbers though, we'll all be fine !!

Edited by EXKAY120 on Sunday 25th March 12:23

Edited by EXKAY120 on Sunday 25th March 12:25

Edited by EXKAY120 on Sunday 25th March 12:25

[LordBretSinclair]

EXKAY120 said:

;) As long as its got matching numbers though, we'll all be fine !!

Edited by EXKAY120 on Sunday 25th March 12:25

Depends though on how those "matching numbers" came to be on the head / block

[aeropilot]

Mr Tidy said:

lowdrag said:

That may well have been snapped up by one of the big restoration houses. They demand - and get - enormous prices for their cars. Have a look here for example:-

https://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/jaguar/e-type...

While the car sold at H&H for £42,000, it wouldn't take £200,000 to restore.

Well I see what you mean, but there were some good usable E-Types for sale for less than £100K - I would have thought they were a better starting point.

I think you're missing the point.
The other ones were not one of the very first RHD 4.2's with history, as well as matching numbers etc......which is will make it a lot more desirable sell with significant 'added value' to use a horrible expression, when it's finished and goes on sale.

[mph]

Disregarding this specific car for the moment.

I've seen many "barn finds" achieve prices that make no financial sense whatsoever.

There's got to be an element of "romanticism" that prompts people to pay over the odds. Perhaps it's the thought of returning something supposedly "untouched and original" back to rude health.

Whatever it is, it's long been a mystery to me.

I've bought one such "barn find" in my life. Fortunately I didn't have to pay over the odds for it.

[Pistom]

They don't need to make sense to those who don't want one.

[EXKAY120]

I remember back in the day when i was a kid my old dad sorting out a "matching numbers" E Type in the back yard of our house in Stepney Green, east end of London surprising how very technical a procedure it was !! :-) ....those grinders and punches were a god send !
But of course, all the matching numbers" cars nowadays are total legit :-) of course they are ;-)

Edited by EXKAY120 on Sunday 25th March 18:57

[mph]

Pistom said:

They don't need to make sense to those who don't want one.

Nor to those who do