Cooling Mustang 1964 289 V8
Discussion
Hoping for some knowledgeable advice from PH members on uprating the cooling system on my 1964 Mustang 289 V8. It overheats in long waits in stationary traffic - and as we know there's an awful lot of that about these days! The block waterjacket is clear, the water pump is new. The coolant is modern 5 year life stuff. So I'm seeking advice on uprating the radiator and fan. Seen ASI brand 4 row alloy rad with the outlet on the opposite side to the inlet (is that better than the same-side configuration on the OE rad?) but some experts say a high flow 2 core rad is better. Any suggestions or recommendations for suppliers? Looking at replacing the engine-driven fan with an electric one - again, any recommendations gratefully received. Thanks for reading.
Have you had the car where it didn't overheat in traffic? The reason I ask this is because being an ex- Triumph Stag owner many times over the years on the forum there would be owner's wanting to fit Kenlowe electric fans and moving the header tank above the height of the top of the rad but these were preventive measures rather than cures. I would be inclined to find out what is causing the overheating first before buying any preventive parts.
Are you 100% sure the block isn't silted-up - has it been chemically cleaned? - does the water pump have a steel impeller? - if so has the engine been used without coolant? - impeller may have eroded fins - is current radiator silted-up - are gills blocked? - is engine timing too retarded? - the thinking by some of using a multi-core radiator can be flawed (cooling air through gills has a more restrictive path and may not give the results you'd expect. Best investment is an all alloy radiator specifically designed for your year car (and not a Chinese knock-off) in the earlier Vette world there is only one name to use - DeWitt's in the 'States - expensive but good. https://www.dewitts.com/collections/mustang-radiat...
roscobbc said:
Are you 100% sure the block isn't silted-up - has it been chemically cleaned? - does the water pump have a steel impeller? - if so has the engine been used without coolant? - impeller may have eroded fins - is current radiator silted-up - are gills blocked? - is engine timing too retarded? - the thinking by some of using a multi-core radiator can be flawed (cooling air through gills has a more restrictive path and may not give the results you'd expect.
Indeed.I know a couple of people in California with first gen Mustangs (restored stock so OEM set-up) that don't have overheating problems and they are dealing with regular 100 deg temps and just as bad, if not worse traffic...??
I have a modified '66 289 mustang and it overheats if you dont use the electric fan. it has an enlarged radiator (not sure which brand) but they are still physically pretty small for the engine size. Plenty of chat about mustangs overheating in the various forums.
Do you have an electric fan on it? or are you using the belt-driven fan?
With the electric fan the car stays at normal operating temperature even in the summer stopped in traffic. there are plenty of 'racing' fan options which bolt on the back of the standard shape radiators. mine is on a switch (with a relay) but you could connect it up to come on automatically at a certain temperature. The previous owner had it permanently on (it was a California car!) but I added the switch for winter use.
Do you have an electric fan on it? or are you using the belt-driven fan?
With the electric fan the car stays at normal operating temperature even in the summer stopped in traffic. there are plenty of 'racing' fan options which bolt on the back of the standard shape radiators. mine is on a switch (with a relay) but you could connect it up to come on automatically at a certain temperature. The previous owner had it permanently on (it was a California car!) but I added the switch for winter use.
aeropilot said:
I know a couple of people in California with first gen Mustangs (restored stock so OEM set-up) that don't have overheating problems and they are dealing with regular 100 deg temps and just as bad, if not worse traffic...??
^ This.This is the UK, fertheloveofgawd. Millions of Mustangs and other cars with pretty much that exact same generic parts-bin cooling system were sold new and used in DESERTS... California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, etc etc etc...
It does not need uprating, it does not need modifying to cope with a British summer... It needs fixing.
Basic diagnosis, then basic fettling. No more than that.
Thanks guys for all the advice. There are clearly plenty of possible causes to identify and rectify. I've only had the car just over a year so don't know for sure its maintenance history - though it came with every bill for the last 20 years which is normally a sign that it's been looked after. The coolant is crystal clear but I will remove the radiator and flush it along with the block. There is no shroud on the engine-driven fan - though opinion is divided in the Mustang world whether that makes any difference. When this ghastly weather changes I'll get the car out of the garage and report back on progress! Thanks again to everyone who replied.
A fan shroud is for ensuring that the fan pulls air through the radiator when stationary, rather than just moving it around the engine bay.
I would check the rad isn't silted up or suffering from rotted cooling fins first. Once you have confirmed that it is good, then a shroud would be my next port of call.
I would check the rad isn't silted up or suffering from rotted cooling fins first. Once you have confirmed that it is good, then a shroud would be my next port of call.
paulmnz said:
I have a modified '66 289 mustang and it overheats if you dont use the electric fan. it has an enlarged radiator (not sure which brand) but they are still physically pretty small for the engine size. Plenty of chat about mustangs overheating in the various forums.
Do you have an electric fan on it? or are you using the belt-driven fan?
With the electric fan the car stays at normal operating temperature even in the summer stopped in traffic. there are plenty of 'racing' fan options which bolt on the back of the standard shape radiators. mine is on a switch (with a relay) but you could connect it up to come on automatically at a certain temperature. The previous owner had it permanently on (it was a California car!) but I added the switch for winter use.
Thanks for this. Yes I've heard the 289 does naturally get very hot in traffic - and the bigger 351 engine is even worse in this respect. Once I've checked the cooling system through - including making sure the thermostat is not stuck closed - I'll almost certainly fit an electric fan and ditch the engine-driven fan as you have.Do you have an electric fan on it? or are you using the belt-driven fan?
With the electric fan the car stays at normal operating temperature even in the summer stopped in traffic. there are plenty of 'racing' fan options which bolt on the back of the standard shape radiators. mine is on a switch (with a relay) but you could connect it up to come on automatically at a certain temperature. The previous owner had it permanently on (it was a California car!) but I added the switch for winter use.
99t said:
A fan shroud is for ensuring that the fan pulls air through the radiator when stationary, rather than just moving it around the engine bay.
I would check the rad isn't silted up or suffering from rotted cooling fins first. Once you have confirmed that it is good, then a shroud would be my next port of call.
A shroud does make sense for the reason you suggest I must say. I'll do all the diagnostic checks as suggested in the various postings first - then decide on either a shroud with the original fan or fit an electric one to the back of the rad.I would check the rad isn't silted up or suffering from rotted cooling fins first. Once you have confirmed that it is good, then a shroud would be my next port of call.
A two second google shows there would have been a shroud there originally. So if it's gone AWOL over the years, then - yes - that's going to drastically affect the fan's efficiency. They don't look particularly all-encompassing, but you can bet Ford wouldn't have spent the handful of cents per car if it didn't do anything. Not particularly expensive for a replacement, either.
TooMany2cvs said:
^ This.
This is the UK, fertheloveofgawd. Millions of Mustangs and other cars with pretty much that exact same generic parts-bin cooling system were sold new and used in DESERTS... California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, etc etc etc...
It does not need uprating, it does not need modifying to cope with a British summer... It needs fixing.
Basic diagnosis, then basic fettling. No more than that.
Although the OP doesn't mention if his car is modified, standard mustangs must have been close to cooling capacity when stock, I've seen loads of mustangs here and in Germany (a friend of mine imports them) and I'd say 80% + are using electric fans, especially if the car is modified (which most now are). The cooling system is extrememly basic compared to a modern car - there are two pipes for the radiator, two for the heater matrix, that is it. I would also suggest plenty of 60s / 70s cars did overheat on a regular basis, and modern car density means we spend a lot more time in traffic jams now.This is the UK, fertheloveofgawd. Millions of Mustangs and other cars with pretty much that exact same generic parts-bin cooling system were sold new and used in DESERTS... California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, etc etc etc...
It does not need uprating, it does not need modifying to cope with a British summer... It needs fixing.
Basic diagnosis, then basic fettling. No more than that.
a quick google confirms this is a known design limitation of the 60s mustangs:
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/interior-ele...
from the article:
Some of the more common technical questions we get involve overheating, and with good reason. Overheating can be chronic, especially with older Mustangs. Classic Mustangs had marginal cooling systems from the factory. Combine that with the many misconceptions about cooling systems and you have a formula for overheating. Falcon-sized two-row-core radiators didn't offer enough cooling capacity for inline-sixes, let alone V-8s. Those wimpy 20-inch vertical tube radiators offered a convoluted coolant path that only aggravated overheating problems because it was not the ideal crossflow radiator, which is why Ford went to a more common sense crossflow radiator in 1970. Take that troublesome approach to radiators and add corrosion and you have a monumental problem with heat transfer.
paulmnz said:
I've seen loads of mustangs here and in Germany (a friend of mine imports them) and I'd say 80% + are using electric fans
Basic efficiency - no point in spinning a fan when it's not needed, because the coolant temp isn't high enough to need the fan.paulmnz said:
a quick google confirms this is a known design limitation of the 60s mustangs:
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/interior-ele...
from the article:
Some of the more common technical questions we get involve overheating, and with good reason. Overheating can be chronic, especially with older Mustangs. Classic Mustangs had marginal cooling systems from the factory. Combine that with the many misconceptions about cooling systems and you have a formula for overheating. Falcon-sized two-row-core radiators didn't offer enough cooling capacity for inline-sixes, let alone V-8s. Those wimpy 20-inch vertical tube radiators offered a convoluted coolant path that only aggravated overheating problems because it was not the ideal crossflow radiator, which is why Ford went to a more common sense crossflow radiator in 1970. Take that troublesome approach to radiators and add corrosion and you have a monumental problem with heat transfer.
So it's "marginal" - including for the hot states of the US - and I'll bet there's a lot more classic Mustangs in daily use in seriously hot/sticky/heavy LA traffic than in UK traffic... So it's more than adequate for UK summer weekend use.http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/interior-ele...
from the article:
Some of the more common technical questions we get involve overheating, and with good reason. Overheating can be chronic, especially with older Mustangs. Classic Mustangs had marginal cooling systems from the factory. Combine that with the many misconceptions about cooling systems and you have a formula for overheating. Falcon-sized two-row-core radiators didn't offer enough cooling capacity for inline-sixes, let alone V-8s. Those wimpy 20-inch vertical tube radiators offered a convoluted coolant path that only aggravated overheating problems because it was not the ideal crossflow radiator, which is why Ford went to a more common sense crossflow radiator in 1970. Take that troublesome approach to radiators and add corrosion and you have a monumental problem with heat transfer.
...unless it's broken.
TooMany2cvs said:
So it's "marginal" - including for the hot states of the US - and I'll bet there's a lot more classic Mustangs in daily use in seriously hot/sticky/heavy LA traffic than in UK traffic... So it's more than adequate for UK summer weekend use.
...unless it's broken.
Your clearly the mustang expert here, so I shall bow out... best of luck to the OP....unless it's broken.
TooMany2cvs said:
A two second google shows there would have been a shroud there originally.
Only in some markets. Not all markets had the shroud, it is far from a standard fitment. I fitted a shroud to my '65 and it didn't make a massive difference.I have the engine driven fan together with a front mounted Kenlowe to help out when I get stuck in traffic. The problem, as with many classics, is when you have a long fast run and then hit traffic. You've built up the heat and then stop so don't get the airflow you need. The argument that you can drive through the desert is flawed as I could easily drive through the desert in my car at 70mph....but if I then stopped and idled in the middle that would be an issue. I can also sit in traffic all day...as long as I haven't got to the traffic at speed.
The first point I'd like to ask the OP what you mean by:
likaleica said:
It overheats in long waits in stationary traffic.
Is it actually boiling over, getting hot on the gauge and then returning (they all do that), overflowing coolant or vapourising fuel and running bad? A lot of us think they're overheating when they are just hot, and these can get much hotter than we'd normally expect without ill effects. Add in unreliable sender units, 50 year old wiring etc. and sometimes it can be that they're not overheating at all. They are marginal though. If they keep getting hot and push out coolant there is no expansion tank so that doesn't help, although there have been several owners who keep topping up and don't let the radiator "find its level" therefore assume it's an issue as it overflows a lot. There have been many threads on the MOCGB forum (also usable by non-members like me) where there has been success with the cheap Chinese alloy rads but you need to be very careful with which supplier you use and buy from description/measurements not on photos.
stang65 said:
Is it actually boiling over, getting hot on the gauge and then returning (they all do that), overflowing coolant or vapourising fuel and running bad? A lot of us think they're overheating when they are just hot, and these can get much hotter than we'd normally expect without ill effects. Add in unreliable sender units, 50 year old wiring etc. and sometimes it can be that they're not overheating at all. They are marginal though. If they keep getting hot and push out coolant there is no expansion tank so that doesn't help, although there have been several owners who keep topping up and don't let the radiator "find its level" therefore assume it's an issue as it overflows a lot.
There have been many threads on the MOCGB forum (also usable by non-members like me) where there has been success with the cheap Chinese alloy rads but you need to be very careful with which supplier you use and buy from description/measurements not on photos.
I didn't mean to cause any overheating among PH members - but know that honestly held and well informed but conflicting opinions can result in temperatures rising! So rewinding back to the beginning: Yes the car overheats. The last time was in December (yes - though on a 12 degree C day) when virtually stationary for 45 minutes in a horrendous jam. Mis-firing occurred and eventually the engine stalled and when I tried to re-start, a main electrical fuse blew and ALL electrics were lost. (That is a separate issue being sorted out as soon as it stops raining long enough to get the car out of the garage.) There was significant coolant loss. Last summer a similar thing happened so there is definitely overheating going on.
The car was originally a 260 V8 (the Falcon engine) but later changed to 289 V8. I've been told by MOCGB members that the radiator is OE. No shroud is present but it may well have had one when new and they are readily obtainable for the 1964 Mustang. You mention caution when buying rads - are the rads good from British supplier ASI? Thanks again for all the helpful guidance.
There have been many threads on the MOCGB forum (also usable by non-members like me) where there has been success with the cheap Chinese alloy rads but you need to be very careful with which supplier you use and buy from description/measurements not on photos.
I didn't mean to cause any overheating among PH members - but know that honestly held and well informed but conflicting opinions can result in temperatures rising! So rewinding back to the beginning: Yes the car overheats. The last time was in December (yes - though on a 12 degree C day) when virtually stationary for 45 minutes in a horrendous jam. Mis-firing occurred and eventually the engine stalled and when I tried to re-start, a main electrical fuse blew and ALL electrics were lost. (That is a separate issue being sorted out as soon as it stops raining long enough to get the car out of the garage.) There was significant coolant loss. Last summer a similar thing happened so there is definitely overheating going on.
The car was originally a 260 V8 (the Falcon engine) but later changed to 289 V8. I've been told by MOCGB members that the radiator is OE. No shroud is present but it may well have had one when new and they are readily obtainable for the 1964 Mustang. You mention caution when buying rads - are the rads good from British supplier ASI? Thanks again for all the helpful guidance.
Obviously i don’t know as much as toomany2cvs on this subject, I spent most of last summer chasing the overheating issue with my ‘68 Cougar (302).
Flushing the block will help, although the only way to get all the coolant out is through the drain clocks in the block.
Make sure you have the right thermostat. Or any thermostat?
What fan is fitted? The cheap aluminium one flatten far too quickly. Is it the right way round?
How old is the rad? They pretty marginal in good condition. I got a cheap alloy one from rock auto as mine was still the 60 year old original.
Oh, and get a fan shroud.
Flushing the block will help, although the only way to get all the coolant out is through the drain clocks in the block.
Make sure you have the right thermostat. Or any thermostat?
What fan is fitted? The cheap aluminium one flatten far too quickly. Is it the right way round?
How old is the rad? They pretty marginal in good condition. I got a cheap alloy one from rock auto as mine was still the 60 year old original.
Oh, and get a fan shroud.
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