Lancia Fulvia chassis number mystery
Discussion
I'm looking to buy a Lancia Fulvia S2
The car is definitely a 1.3s Series 2. The engine number is within the correct range for the supposed year of construction 1972, but the car was first registered in 1975 and the chassis number equates to a car of that vintage (ie. the chassis number appears to fall out of range for a 1972 car, but fits within a 1974 or 1975 car).
The car was imported from Italy in 2015 and is listed on the MOT database as an August 1972 registration.
I have a copy of an Italian registration document which clearly shows the car as being a Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3 s 2A series although there is no build date shown. The chassis number is shown and the document is stamped and dated July 1975.
I'm struggling to make sense of it. So far I have come up with two possible explanations:-
1.) The car was built in 1972, but the chassis number plate was not allocated or fitted until 1975 at first registration.
2.) The car was written off early in its life and a new chassis was fitted which required a fresh registration document.
It all happened so many years ago, it doesn't really bother me too much as it's not a high value classic and the car has had a complete rebuild in recent years, but it would be good to try to get my head around the chassis number question.
The only other joy is the replacement speedometer which has thrown the recorded mileage right out of whack... oh the joys of classic car ownership!
The car is definitely a 1.3s Series 2. The engine number is within the correct range for the supposed year of construction 1972, but the car was first registered in 1975 and the chassis number equates to a car of that vintage (ie. the chassis number appears to fall out of range for a 1972 car, but fits within a 1974 or 1975 car).
The car was imported from Italy in 2015 and is listed on the MOT database as an August 1972 registration.
I have a copy of an Italian registration document which clearly shows the car as being a Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3 s 2A series although there is no build date shown. The chassis number is shown and the document is stamped and dated July 1975.
I'm struggling to make sense of it. So far I have come up with two possible explanations:-
1.) The car was built in 1972, but the chassis number plate was not allocated or fitted until 1975 at first registration.
2.) The car was written off early in its life and a new chassis was fitted which required a fresh registration document.
It all happened so many years ago, it doesn't really bother me too much as it's not a high value classic and the car has had a complete rebuild in recent years, but it would be good to try to get my head around the chassis number question.
The only other joy is the replacement speedometer which has thrown the recorded mileage right out of whack... oh the joys of classic car ownership!
Could it be 2 cars, someone's taken the shell from the 75 one and the engine and documents from the 72 due to rust or crash?
If it's £100,000 it matters, you want to be certain it's kosher but if it's £5000 it probably doesn't matter too much! (I have no idea what they're worth but you know what I mean!)
If it's £100,000 it matters, you want to be certain it's kosher but if it's £5000 it probably doesn't matter too much! (I have no idea what they're worth but you know what I mean!)
Cars from that era had all sorts of ID changes, they were often scrap due to rust by the time they were 10 yrs old, its probably best left unknown and just enjoy it.
think of it the other way round, Mario in Rome imports a British Mk1 Escort genuine 'Mexico' bought off ebay then starts tracing its ID, imagine what he might find, its a 71 not 73 shell from a 2 door 1300 XL with different wings (type 49) and has an engine from a Cortina 1600E and a gearbox from a 2.0 Capri mk 2,nothing adds up. But if its nicely done it's still a cracking good 2 door 1600cc mk1 escort so what.
Change the word Fulvia for Escort and you can see where this might lead to after your Fulvia lived a life in Italy before it became valuable again and landed in the UK.
Nice car to have, enjoy it.
think of it the other way round, Mario in Rome imports a British Mk1 Escort genuine 'Mexico' bought off ebay then starts tracing its ID, imagine what he might find, its a 71 not 73 shell from a 2 door 1300 XL with different wings (type 49) and has an engine from a Cortina 1600E and a gearbox from a 2.0 Capri mk 2,nothing adds up. But if its nicely done it's still a cracking good 2 door 1600cc mk1 escort so what.
Change the word Fulvia for Escort and you can see where this might lead to after your Fulvia lived a life in Italy before it became valuable again and landed in the UK.
Nice car to have, enjoy it.
The Italian documents from that period should have a build date on them as well as a 'first registered' date and the engine and chassis numbers.
It sounds to me that the car was re-shelled either in 1975, or later on when 2 cars have been combined to make 1 good one. It'll never be a 'matching numbers' car which is important to some, so its value is clipped a little but these are absolutely fabulous cars so provided you factor in the history to the purchase, buy it drive it, and enjoy it.
It sounds to me that the car was re-shelled either in 1975, or later on when 2 cars have been combined to make 1 good one. It'll never be a 'matching numbers' car which is important to some, so its value is clipped a little but these are absolutely fabulous cars so provided you factor in the history to the purchase, buy it drive it, and enjoy it.
The Surveyor said:
The Italian documents from that period should have a build date on them as well as a 'first registered' date and the engine and chassis numbers.
It sounds to me that the car was re-shelled either in 1975, or later on when 2 cars have been combined to make 1 good one. It'll never be a 'matching numbers' car which is important to some, so its value is clipped a little but these are absolutely fabulous cars so provided you factor in the history to the purchase, buy it drive it, and enjoy it.
Here is the document that i have (chassis number blocked out, but the number is in line with a 74/75 chassis).It sounds to me that the car was re-shelled either in 1975, or later on when 2 cars have been combined to make 1 good one. It'll never be a 'matching numbers' car which is important to some, so its value is clipped a little but these are absolutely fabulous cars so provided you factor in the history to the purchase, buy it drive it, and enjoy it.
I think you are probably right... a 1972 car that was re-shelled in 1975. And as you say, as long as it's lovely now (which it is), does it really matter too much... i don't believe it does.
I seem to remember a discussion last year about the provenance of a Lancia Fulvia on one of the classic fora I frequent. At the time I think the outcome was the buyer decided not to go ahead - there were too many question marks. I believe the car in question was located somewhere in the Midlands/Worcester area.
A word of caution - there is an increasing amount of dodgy activity in the classics world, especially in Italy. A good friend (well-known in the Alfa/Lancia world) imports a lot of cars from Italy and restores & sells them. He is currently involved in legal action over a '60's Alfa Spider which had it's identity very professionally "altered" - it was so well done that even he didn't spot it - it only came up when it came to be registered. Here in Belgium, the car gets a new reg plate when it changes owner, and an import has to be checked/re-plated (ID plate, not number plate) by the manufacturer. It was at this point that the fraud was uncovered.
How long has the car been in the UK? I would be more mistrustful of a recent import than one that has been in the UK for years.
A word of caution - there is an increasing amount of dodgy activity in the classics world, especially in Italy. A good friend (well-known in the Alfa/Lancia world) imports a lot of cars from Italy and restores & sells them. He is currently involved in legal action over a '60's Alfa Spider which had it's identity very professionally "altered" - it was so well done that even he didn't spot it - it only came up when it came to be registered. Here in Belgium, the car gets a new reg plate when it changes owner, and an import has to be checked/re-plated (ID plate, not number plate) by the manufacturer. It was at this point that the fraud was uncovered.
How long has the car been in the UK? I would be more mistrustful of a recent import than one that has been in the UK for years.
sunbeam alpine said:
A word of caution - there is an increasing amount of dodgy activity in the classics world, especially in Italy. A good friend (well-known in the Alfa/Lancia world) imports a lot of cars from Italy and restores & sells them. He is currently involved in legal action over a '60's Alfa Spider which had it's identity very professionally "altered" - it was so well done that even he didn't spot it - it only came up when it came to be registered.
Yes this is increasingly a problem as a number of specific sought after models seem to self-replicating; there are certain vendors who tend to pop up on certain fora trying to sell off another extremely rare car that most thought had been written off during a race 40-50 years ago only to suddenly be discovered having just been completely "restored!" For your fulvia, have you contacted FCA UK? For around £35, they will give you the "official" build date of the car - I say "official" as i have imported not that long ago an Alfa and Lancia from South Africa both whose first date of registration in South Africa preceded their official build dates!
Another quirk of the an imported south African car is that if previously stolen, SA police will assign a new chassis number to the vehicle, often by simply riveting same over old chassis number.
StonetheCrows said:
Apparently, the Dorset-based person referred to in that thread is still apparently active with dodgy evocations/replicas so please be very careful with any South African imports in that area. Edited by arguti on Friday 25th May 13:19
sunbeam alpine said:
I seem to remember a discussion last year about the provenance of a Lancia Fulvia on one of the classic fora I frequent. At the time I think the outcome was the buyer decided not to go ahead - there were too many question marks. I believe the car in question was located somewhere in the Midlands/Worcester area.
A word of caution - there is an increasing amount of dodgy activity in the classics world, especially in Italy. A good friend (well-known in the Alfa/Lancia world) imports a lot of cars from Italy and restores & sells them. He is currently involved in legal action over a '60's Alfa Spider which had it's identity very professionally "altered" - it was so well done that even he didn't spot it - it only came up when it came to be registered. Here in Belgium, the car gets a new reg plate when it changes owner, and an import has to be checked/re-plated (ID plate, not number plate) by the manufacturer. It was at this point that the fraud was uncovered.
How long has the car been in the UK? I would be more mistrustful of a recent import than one that has been in the UK for years.
This car has been here for a few years (originally sold at Coys auction) and is registered. I guess as long as i double check the engine number and chassis number against the actual car, if they line up, i am fine... it just leaves the question mark over the age of the shell, which is most likely answered by a re-shelling of the car early in its life.A word of caution - there is an increasing amount of dodgy activity in the classics world, especially in Italy. A good friend (well-known in the Alfa/Lancia world) imports a lot of cars from Italy and restores & sells them. He is currently involved in legal action over a '60's Alfa Spider which had it's identity very professionally "altered" - it was so well done that even he didn't spot it - it only came up when it came to be registered. Here in Belgium, the car gets a new reg plate when it changes owner, and an import has to be checked/re-plated (ID plate, not number plate) by the manufacturer. It was at this point that the fraud was uncovered.
How long has the car been in the UK? I would be more mistrustful of a recent import than one that has been in the UK for years.
StonetheCrows said:
Just to say that thread relates to a flavia not fulvia And on the Fulvia the engine number is on the block under the carbs so hard to see
You can also more easily see it stamped on the crankcase near the starter but that part can be changed as it is only the rear engine
Cover but it usually tallies in my experience
Okay, panic over.
Everything checks out. The car is a very genuine series 3 with series 2 seats and steering wheel (apparently options). I revisited the car today and found the all-important chassis number stamped into the body which matches the vin plate that was rivetted on to the bulkhead (the owner was looking at the part number of the wing, not the chassis number). I also now have copies of all the original registration papers and it all stacks up. The car was built at the very end of 1974 and registered mid-1975.
The confusion came as the owner (who was given the car originally) mistakenly thought the car was built in 1972 as a series 2 car.
The date on the MOT history is an error (although it's correct on the V5 and all other documents), but I can live with that.
Very happy now. Just need to get it in my garage next week.
Cheers for all the words of wisdom.
Everything checks out. The car is a very genuine series 3 with series 2 seats and steering wheel (apparently options). I revisited the car today and found the all-important chassis number stamped into the body which matches the vin plate that was rivetted on to the bulkhead (the owner was looking at the part number of the wing, not the chassis number). I also now have copies of all the original registration papers and it all stacks up. The car was built at the very end of 1974 and registered mid-1975.
The confusion came as the owner (who was given the car originally) mistakenly thought the car was built in 1972 as a series 2 car.
The date on the MOT history is an error (although it's correct on the V5 and all other documents), but I can live with that.
Very happy now. Just need to get it in my garage next week.
Cheers for all the words of wisdom.
Edited by Yacht Broker on Saturday 26th May 19:43
That’s good news!
These are super little cars, my day autocrossed one when I was a kid and we almost imported one from Italy in the late 90’s (nice rust free original 1300 s3 with cream leather).
In fact it was surprising how many Fulvia’s were still being used as daily runners by elderly owners in Italy about 20 years ago, by that time all the U.K. Fulvias had long since rusted away.
These are super little cars, my day autocrossed one when I was a kid and we almost imported one from Italy in the late 90’s (nice rust free original 1300 s3 with cream leather).
In fact it was surprising how many Fulvia’s were still being used as daily runners by elderly owners in Italy about 20 years ago, by that time all the U.K. Fulvias had long since rusted away.
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