Help needed on imported 105
Discussion
Hi Guys, think this is my first post - but i've been lurking for a while.
I imported a South African 105 back in March / April - its a 1975 GT Junior 1600 in blue with brown leather. The car is in decent cosmetic condition, and starts and drives.
I completed the V55/5 form and submitted to the DVLA. I was hoping for a cost effective and straight forward process. No MOT needed, no inspection needed etc. Just the form and £55 fee.
DVLA came back, and said the status of "built-up" on the SA Registration Certificate ( as opposed to "used") means it can't be registered on its original VIN number.
They will provide a VIN number and that the car will need to go through the DVSA (Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency) for Individual Vehicle Approval. This seems a very detailed and potentially costly process, and it means the car will be a "Q" series car and attract annual road tax etc - so this is very far from ideal.
Can anybody shed any light on this? Past experience?
At the moment the demons are circling and I'm contemplating selling the car as is, unregistered.
I imported a South African 105 back in March / April - its a 1975 GT Junior 1600 in blue with brown leather. The car is in decent cosmetic condition, and starts and drives.
I completed the V55/5 form and submitted to the DVLA. I was hoping for a cost effective and straight forward process. No MOT needed, no inspection needed etc. Just the form and £55 fee.
DVLA came back, and said the status of "built-up" on the SA Registration Certificate ( as opposed to "used") means it can't be registered on its original VIN number.
They will provide a VIN number and that the car will need to go through the DVSA (Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency) for Individual Vehicle Approval. This seems a very detailed and potentially costly process, and it means the car will be a "Q" series car and attract annual road tax etc - so this is very far from ideal.
Can anybody shed any light on this? Past experience?
At the moment the demons are circling and I'm contemplating selling the car as is, unregistered.
There was a similar thread last December - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=17...
Is this a similar situation, a locally-assembled CKD car?
Is this a similar situation, a locally-assembled CKD car?
TooMany2cvs said:
There was a similar thread last December - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=17...
Is this a similar situation, a locally-assembled CKD car?
Seems like a very similar situation, but doesn't seem to have mentioned if it was successfully resolved. I'll pm the chap and ask what happened.Is this a similar situation, a locally-assembled CKD car?
What is a CKD car?
This is clearly an issue with SA CKD cars being imported because of SA licencing authorities choosing the term 'built-up', rather than CKD in general, as I know a few Aussie CKD cars that have been imported to UK that have not had this issue, clearly the Aussie's didn't use any such descriptions in their reg documents that will now send DVLA into a frenzy.
Given that DVLA can't apply any sort of rational logic in such matters, only 'computer says no' I can see this issue being oft repeated.
You'd think such an issue would be picked up by the monthly classic car mags with some articles, which at least might help any future 'buyer beware' situation.
Given that DVLA can't apply any sort of rational logic in such matters, only 'computer says no' I can see this issue being oft repeated.
You'd think such an issue would be picked up by the monthly classic car mags with some articles, which at least might help any future 'buyer beware' situation.
aeropilot said:
This is clearly an issue with SA CKD cars being imported because of SA licencing authorities choosing the term 'built-up'
Mmm, exactly why I asked about it being CKD.Definitely worth talking to the Fed - I'm presuming the Alfa club(s) are members, so probably best to go through the club's Fed liaison. They may even have dealt with it before.
There is a bit of context and background to the "built up" status of South African sourced cars which may help clarify.
For many years cars such as the 105 Alfa Romeos were worth peanuts back in SA, and only in the last decade or so did the locals wake up to the value of old cars in SA, especially as UK buyers started looking and buying.
Many of the old cars had fallen into disrepair and were not roadworthy, nor were these licenced. At the same time did the "DVLA equivalent" migrate to modern registration systems which meant some of the non licensed cars were not migrated and hence lost so to speak.
Fast forward to more recent times and the old cars came out of hibernation and were restored but no record existed on the vehicle registration data base. The SA system being inflexible, and with the vehicle theft and corruption issues locally, the authorities will only re register a car provided you are able to prove origin and ownership, obtain a police clearance and also tested for roadworthiness - then registered as a "built up" vehicle.
The term "built up" on the reg docs is hence just a mechanism to get the vehicle onto the local vehicle registration system. It is unrelated to CKD.
To resolve this you could write to Dr Marco Fazio at the Alfa Romeo Museum via email, pay a fee and they will issue a letter confirming date of build and first registration. https://www.fcaheritage.com/servizi-classici/alfa
Armed with this documentation DVLA are known to use as evidence and issue age related registration and plates. Stuart Taylor is the 105 registrar at the UK AR Club. He is also on faceless.
Hope this helps.
For many years cars such as the 105 Alfa Romeos were worth peanuts back in SA, and only in the last decade or so did the locals wake up to the value of old cars in SA, especially as UK buyers started looking and buying.
Many of the old cars had fallen into disrepair and were not roadworthy, nor were these licenced. At the same time did the "DVLA equivalent" migrate to modern registration systems which meant some of the non licensed cars were not migrated and hence lost so to speak.
Fast forward to more recent times and the old cars came out of hibernation and were restored but no record existed on the vehicle registration data base. The SA system being inflexible, and with the vehicle theft and corruption issues locally, the authorities will only re register a car provided you are able to prove origin and ownership, obtain a police clearance and also tested for roadworthiness - then registered as a "built up" vehicle.
The term "built up" on the reg docs is hence just a mechanism to get the vehicle onto the local vehicle registration system. It is unrelated to CKD.
To resolve this you could write to Dr Marco Fazio at the Alfa Romeo Museum via email, pay a fee and they will issue a letter confirming date of build and first registration. https://www.fcaheritage.com/servizi-classici/alfa
Armed with this documentation DVLA are known to use as evidence and issue age related registration and plates. Stuart Taylor is the 105 registrar at the UK AR Club. He is also on faceless.
Hope this helps.
coetzeeh said:
To resolve this you could write to Dr Marco Fazio at the Alfa Romeo Museum via email, pay a fee and they will issue a letter confirming date of build and first registration. https://www.fcaheritage.com/servizi-classici/alfa
Armed with this documentation DVLA are known to use as evidence and issue age related registration and plates. Stuart Taylor is the 105 registrar at the UK AR Club. He is also on faceless.
If you look back to the link in the 2nd post where a previous OP had this same issue, they had a Heritage Cert and paperwork from UK club, and DVLA were unmoved because of the 'built-up' term on the SA paperwork.Armed with this documentation DVLA are known to use as evidence and issue age related registration and plates. Stuart Taylor is the 105 registrar at the UK AR Club. He is also on faceless.
Given this is not a CKD issue as you've pointed out, then its very much a buyer beware on any old car imported from SA, and you'd want to see a scan of all relevant paperwork BEFORE parting with any money...otherwise you may be buying a car that will never get UK registration.
coetzeeh said:
There is a bit of context and background to the "built up" status of South African sourced cars which may help clarify.
For many years cars such as the 105 Alfa Romeos were worth peanuts back in SA, and only in the last decade or so did the locals wake up to the value of old cars in SA, especially as UK buyers started looking and buying.
Many of the old cars had fallen into disrepair and were not roadworthy, nor were these licenced. At the same time did the "DVLA equivalent" migrate to modern registration systems which meant some of the non licensed cars were not migrated and hence lost so to speak.
Fast forward to more recent times and the old cars came out of hibernation and were restored but no record existed on the vehicle registration data base. The SA system being inflexible, and with the vehicle theft and corruption issues locally, the authorities will only re register a car provided you are able to prove origin and ownership, obtain a police clearance and also tested for roadworthiness - then registered as a "built up" vehicle.
The term "built up" on the reg docs is hence just a mechanism to get the vehicle onto the local vehicle registration system. It is unrelated to CKD.
To resolve this you could write to Dr Marco Fazio at the Alfa Romeo Museum via email, pay a fee and they will issue a letter confirming date of build and first registration. https://www.fcaheritage.com/servizi-classici/alfa
Armed with this documentation DVLA are known to use as evidence and issue age related registration and plates. Stuart Taylor is the 105 registrar at the UK AR Club. He is also on faceless.
Hope this helps.
Coetzeeh, I'm so glad you replied to this. I have been trying to get a hold of you.For many years cars such as the 105 Alfa Romeos were worth peanuts back in SA, and only in the last decade or so did the locals wake up to the value of old cars in SA, especially as UK buyers started looking and buying.
Many of the old cars had fallen into disrepair and were not roadworthy, nor were these licenced. At the same time did the "DVLA equivalent" migrate to modern registration systems which meant some of the non licensed cars were not migrated and hence lost so to speak.
Fast forward to more recent times and the old cars came out of hibernation and were restored but no record existed on the vehicle registration data base. The SA system being inflexible, and with the vehicle theft and corruption issues locally, the authorities will only re register a car provided you are able to prove origin and ownership, obtain a police clearance and also tested for roadworthiness - then registered as a "built up" vehicle.
The term "built up" on the reg docs is hence just a mechanism to get the vehicle onto the local vehicle registration system. It is unrelated to CKD.
To resolve this you could write to Dr Marco Fazio at the Alfa Romeo Museum via email, pay a fee and they will issue a letter confirming date of build and first registration. https://www.fcaheritage.com/servizi-classici/alfa
Armed with this documentation DVLA are known to use as evidence and issue age related registration and plates. Stuart Taylor is the 105 registrar at the UK AR Club. He is also on faceless.
Hope this helps.
I sent and email to what I think is one of your old email addresses (a gmail one...). I don't know how to PM here...can't see the options.
Please could you reply - I promise i'm not a troll and I won't stalk you either - just want to get some sound advice please.
aeropilot said:
If you look back to the link in the 2nd post where a previous OP had this same issue, they had a Heritage Cert and paperwork from UK club, and DVLA were unmoved because of the 'built-up' term on the SA paperwork.
Given this is not a CKD issue as you've pointed out, then its very much a buyer beware on any old car imported from SA, and you'd want to see a scan of all relevant paperwork BEFORE parting with any money...otherwise you may be buying a car that will never get UK registration.
Not strictly true, the DVLA have given me a route to registration, but its through the IVA process and as a Q plate car. A lot more involved, and a lot more costly - but still possible.Given this is not a CKD issue as you've pointed out, then its very much a buyer beware on any old car imported from SA, and you'd want to see a scan of all relevant paperwork BEFORE parting with any money...otherwise you may be buying a car that will never get UK registration.
Davenwalk said:
aeropilot said:
If you look back to the link in the 2nd post where a previous OP had this same issue, they had a Heritage Cert and paperwork from UK club, and DVLA were unmoved because of the 'built-up' term on the SA paperwork.
Given this is not a CKD issue as you've pointed out, then its very much a buyer beware on any old car imported from SA, and you'd want to see a scan of all relevant paperwork BEFORE parting with any money...otherwise you may be buying a car that will never get UK registration.
Not strictly true, the DVLA have given me a route to registration, but its through the IVA process and as a Q plate car. A lot more involved, and a lot more costly - but still possible.Given this is not a CKD issue as you've pointed out, then its very much a buyer beware on any old car imported from SA, and you'd want to see a scan of all relevant paperwork BEFORE parting with any money...otherwise you may be buying a car that will never get UK registration.
Davenwalk said:
Coetzeeh, I'm so glad you replied to this. I have been trying to get a hold of you.
I sent and email to what I think is one of your old email addresses (a gmail one...). I don't know how to PM here...can't see the options.
Please could you reply - I promise i'm not a troll and I won't stalk you either - just want to get some sound advice please.
Sure thing will do.I sent and email to what I think is one of your old email addresses (a gmail one...). I don't know how to PM here...can't see the options.
Please could you reply - I promise i'm not a troll and I won't stalk you either - just want to get some sound advice please.
coetzeeh said:
Davenwalk said:
Coetzeeh, I'm so glad you replied to this. I have been trying to get a hold of you.
I sent and email to what I think is one of your old email addresses (a gmail one...). I don't know how to PM here...can't see the options.
Please could you reply - I promise i'm not a troll and I won't stalk you either - just want to get some sound advice please.
Sure thing will do.I sent and email to what I think is one of your old email addresses (a gmail one...). I don't know how to PM here...can't see the options.
Please could you reply - I promise i'm not a troll and I won't stalk you either - just want to get some sound advice please.
Henk Coetzee's advice is spot on.
Personally i would try Alfa romeo historical archive in Italy first - i believe they may now charge for the service. once you get their email or letter back, you can then ask Stuart Taylor, the 105 registrar to put on a AROC letterhead for submission to DVLA. however, not all of the SA cars will have the information on the Alfa Romeo (Italy database)
You could also try FCA (Alfa/Fiat) on 01753 511431 and ask for heritage dept or whoever deals with manufacturer's letters - again this will cost around £36 but will be accepted by DVLA. they were able to dig up historical records for my South African registered Lancia Beta - again incorrect year of manufacture on South African V5.
my 105 that I owned for around 15 years in South Africa turned out to be built in Italy for delivery out to Saudi Arabia and arrvied in South Africa from there.
See my answers on this thread - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Also had to deal with incorrect details on South African V5- wrong chassis digit, incorrect year of manufacture, etc on both Alfas and Lancias brought over.
Personally i would try Alfa romeo historical archive in Italy first - i believe they may now charge for the service. once you get their email or letter back, you can then ask Stuart Taylor, the 105 registrar to put on a AROC letterhead for submission to DVLA. however, not all of the SA cars will have the information on the Alfa Romeo (Italy database)
You could also try FCA (Alfa/Fiat) on 01753 511431 and ask for heritage dept or whoever deals with manufacturer's letters - again this will cost around £36 but will be accepted by DVLA. they were able to dig up historical records for my South African registered Lancia Beta - again incorrect year of manufacture on South African V5.
my 105 that I owned for around 15 years in South Africa turned out to be built in Italy for delivery out to Saudi Arabia and arrvied in South Africa from there.
See my answers on this thread - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Also had to deal with incorrect details on South African V5- wrong chassis digit, incorrect year of manufacture, etc on both Alfas and Lancias brought over.
Edited by arguti on Friday 13th July 15:48
rallycross said:
Interesting thread, anyone know of any reliable exporters/car finders in SA? I'd like to find a rust free 80's Lancia and ship it back to UK.
These guys helped to ship my car, and can source vehicles.www.roadandrace.co.za/
arguti said:
Henk Coetzee's advice is spot on.
Personally i would try Alfa romeo historical archive in Italy first - i believe they may now charge for the service. once you get their email or letter back, you can then ask Stuart Taylor, the 105 registrar to put on a AROC letterhead for submission to DVLA. however, not all of the SA cars will have the information on the Alfa Romeo (Italy database)
You could also try FCA (Alfa/Fiat) on 01753 511431 and ask for heritage dept or whoever deals with manufacturer's letters - again this will cost around £36 but will be accepted by DVLA. they were able to dig up historical records for my South African registered Lancia Beta - again incorrect year of manufacture on South African V5.
my 105 that I owned for around 15 years in South Africa turned out to be built in Italy for delivery out to Saudi Arabia and arrvied in South Africa from there.
See my answers on this thread - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Also had to deal with incorrect details on South African V5- wrong chassis digit, incorrect year of manufacture, etc on both Alfas and Lancias brought over.
Many thanks for your input.Personally i would try Alfa romeo historical archive in Italy first - i believe they may now charge for the service. once you get their email or letter back, you can then ask Stuart Taylor, the 105 registrar to put on a AROC letterhead for submission to DVLA. however, not all of the SA cars will have the information on the Alfa Romeo (Italy database)
You could also try FCA (Alfa/Fiat) on 01753 511431 and ask for heritage dept or whoever deals with manufacturer's letters - again this will cost around £36 but will be accepted by DVLA. they were able to dig up historical records for my South African registered Lancia Beta - again incorrect year of manufacture on South African V5.
my 105 that I owned for around 15 years in South Africa turned out to be built in Italy for delivery out to Saudi Arabia and arrvied in South Africa from there.
See my answers on this thread - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Also had to deal with incorrect details on South African V5- wrong chassis digit, incorrect year of manufacture, etc on both Alfas and Lancias brought over.
Edited by arguti on Friday 13th July 15:48
OP,
I hope you manage to get this resolved.
I bought my 105 from NZ and shipped it in myself, taking care of all the import side myself too. I did make my job significantly easier by speaking to Marco at the outset so I knew I was buying a car that was originally delivered to London for the UK market. However I did still follow the instructions mentioned above by other posters and paid the fee to AR UK to get the paperwork on their headed paper. Sadly the DVLA were unable to trace the car's original identity in the UK before it was exported to NZ so I wrote a very detailed letter to them with all of the information I had gathered on it. Lo and behold a nice new V5 arrived giving it an age related plate DRS ***H i think it was. I never even had those plates made up as I had already bought a plate for it myself, 2 UBE, and made the plate transfer immediately.
One point to note was that as I didn't have an old V5 to work from for the issuing of my new V5 I needed sight of one that I could use a template for getting the right numbers in the right boxes. If you get to the stage of needing this, and I sincerely hope you do, feel free to give me a shout.
I'm also happy to share with you all of my import paperwork in case it can be of assistance.
I hope you manage to get this resolved.
I bought my 105 from NZ and shipped it in myself, taking care of all the import side myself too. I did make my job significantly easier by speaking to Marco at the outset so I knew I was buying a car that was originally delivered to London for the UK market. However I did still follow the instructions mentioned above by other posters and paid the fee to AR UK to get the paperwork on their headed paper. Sadly the DVLA were unable to trace the car's original identity in the UK before it was exported to NZ so I wrote a very detailed letter to them with all of the information I had gathered on it. Lo and behold a nice new V5 arrived giving it an age related plate DRS ***H i think it was. I never even had those plates made up as I had already bought a plate for it myself, 2 UBE, and made the plate transfer immediately.
One point to note was that as I didn't have an old V5 to work from for the issuing of my new V5 I needed sight of one that I could use a template for getting the right numbers in the right boxes. If you get to the stage of needing this, and I sincerely hope you do, feel free to give me a shout.
I'm also happy to share with you all of my import paperwork in case it can be of assistance.
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