Classic car restoration in Poland?
Discussion
The OP in this thread is having work done in Poland - https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
I am afraid that as far as the Jaguar world is concerned I have seen nothing that has come out of Poland to which I would give house room. Very poorly fabricated bodywork, and a finition that took my breath away - in the wrong sense. Body shape all wrong, and as for the mechanics. Here are a couple of photos. A long nose, badly-shaped short rear tail with half the suspension missing. This car was auctioned in the USA last year.
You get what you pay for anywhere in the world. There are some skilled craftsmen in Poland, as in every other country in the world really, but the vast majority produce very poor quality work.
Yes, you'd expect to pay a lower hourly rate in Poland than an equivalent in the UK, but it's all comparative. If you pay cheap cheap, you get poor quality work. If you want quality, you'll still pay a premium in Polish terms, so it's never going to be worth the transport costs and logistical headaches for any savings you may make on hourly rate.
The cost of living in Poland may be cheaper, but it's not a third world country, so top quality work isn't going to cost peanuts!
The problem with classic car restoration in the UK is that a number of the "flagship" companies have very large and flash premises and are laid out very spaced out so they look impressive and easier to keep clean and tidy and to look impressive when showing clients round. This is seen as important to many people is classic cars can be a very expensive game and it feels like a necessity to purvey a sense of luxury to the surroundings, but at the end of the day the client is paying for probably at least 4 times the workspace that is actually required for doing the job. Restoring a car is a messy business. It doesn't matter if its a £750 Fiesta or a £7,500,000 Ferrari 275, if you start cutting and grinding the metalwork it'll make the same mess and it's a dirty, horrible job for someone to do (I know, I've done both!). You will find the best, most skilled craftsmen in some of the smallest workshops in the UK as the larger, flashy places will be run by the bean counters who will encourage workers to cut corners where possible and count hours and try to run the business like a main dealership or accident repair centre (which is the background most of the management will have come from), whereas the small independent will work to his own standard and to his own hours and lower overheads = lower labour rates.
I don't want to sound like I'm teaching you how to suck eggs as it were and there are highly skilled people working for large and small workshops and equally so there are bodgers and skivers in both, but you'll get your work done to a high standard, for a reasonable price in the UK if you do your research, talk to people and are willing to follow the "all the glistens isn't gold" mantra to a degree.
Yes, you'd expect to pay a lower hourly rate in Poland than an equivalent in the UK, but it's all comparative. If you pay cheap cheap, you get poor quality work. If you want quality, you'll still pay a premium in Polish terms, so it's never going to be worth the transport costs and logistical headaches for any savings you may make on hourly rate.
The cost of living in Poland may be cheaper, but it's not a third world country, so top quality work isn't going to cost peanuts!
The problem with classic car restoration in the UK is that a number of the "flagship" companies have very large and flash premises and are laid out very spaced out so they look impressive and easier to keep clean and tidy and to look impressive when showing clients round. This is seen as important to many people is classic cars can be a very expensive game and it feels like a necessity to purvey a sense of luxury to the surroundings, but at the end of the day the client is paying for probably at least 4 times the workspace that is actually required for doing the job. Restoring a car is a messy business. It doesn't matter if its a £750 Fiesta or a £7,500,000 Ferrari 275, if you start cutting and grinding the metalwork it'll make the same mess and it's a dirty, horrible job for someone to do (I know, I've done both!). You will find the best, most skilled craftsmen in some of the smallest workshops in the UK as the larger, flashy places will be run by the bean counters who will encourage workers to cut corners where possible and count hours and try to run the business like a main dealership or accident repair centre (which is the background most of the management will have come from), whereas the small independent will work to his own standard and to his own hours and lower overheads = lower labour rates.
I don't want to sound like I'm teaching you how to suck eggs as it were and there are highly skilled people working for large and small workshops and equally so there are bodgers and skivers in both, but you'll get your work done to a high standard, for a reasonable price in the UK if you do your research, talk to people and are willing to follow the "all the glistens isn't gold" mantra to a degree.
Edited by mbwoy84 on Friday 12th June 09:56
Don’t forget that if it’s not back in Blighty by 31.12 20, you’ll be paying a shed load of tax/duty. I wouldn’t want that hanging over me, just to try and save a few quid. Also Poland has near zero history with 1950s Lancias. Why not try a UK Lancia specialist like Omicron, or just your local restorer? At least you can keep a close eye on progress there.
Apart from the logistical difficulties in keeping abreast of the job overseas, it would worry me a bit that if something goes wrong with the restoration shop in any overseas country one would have a big issue trying to gather up the bits and return them.
A Lancia of this type is valuable and the risk of losing the car or parts of it would be a factor to consider if it were me. It isn’t like an MgB where you can just replace lost items.
That said I am sure there are good workshops there.
I think someone had a Lancia Flavia restored there. You could ask the consortium for info.
A Lancia of this type is valuable and the risk of losing the car or parts of it would be a factor to consider if it were me. It isn’t like an MgB where you can just replace lost items.
That said I am sure there are good workshops there.
I think someone had a Lancia Flavia restored there. You could ask the consortium for info.
LotusOmega375D said:
Don’t forget that if it’s not back in Blighty by 31.12 20, you’ll be paying a shed load of tax/duty. I wouldn’t want that hanging over me, just to try and save a few quid.
That's a very good point!LotusOmega375D said:
Also Poland has near zero history with 1950s Lancias.
Aside from the above point, this would be my main concern with something so specialised (rare).The rarer and more unusual the car, the more its needs to go to someone that understands them & knows them well in my experience.
Poland wouldn't be on my list of places to send any Lancia for restoration.
I live in Berkshire and my car is being restored by a marque specialist over on the Essex coast, and the logistics of that are bad enough, let alone trying to keep track of a car being done in Poland!
newsatten said:
Were be getting our resto's done in China next!
Talking of China, which we weren't, I needed to buy my umpteenth oil pressure sender for the E-type the other day. It's arrived, and I was amazed to see "Made in UK" stamped it. Let's hope it's more reliable than the others have been.
Ffffaster said:
newsatten said:
Typical wanabe classic car owners , Champagne at Lemonade money.........................................
Kent as it apperns ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Wow. You sound like a unpleasant person. I've always wondered how someone can come up with a generalisation like that without a clue about the person they're referring to, their means or circumstances. Kent as it apperns ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I've seen it often enough as well, and know enough people in the trade that get just as exasperated by people having a wants list that far exceeds the depth of their wallet.
My view and experience is if you don't have the skills to do it yourself, if you can't afford to do it properly, then set your sights lower on something you can afford or don't do it at all.
The people I know in the restoration game all now won't undertake remedial work or '2nd' restorations on cars that have already been 'restored' by Mickey Mouse Restoration Co. Ltd.
Have a look at AROnline, there is a blog there about having a Rover SD1 restored in Poland.
I have never done it however I do have a lot of experience of the quality of welding / fabrication work that is done in Ship Repair. Romaninan welder / fabricators are incredible and will turn out some amazing work. A lot of the Poles I have worked with are similarly talented.
You get what you pay for, don't expect 1/2 price but their best is cheaper than out best.
The older guys are better, and I mean old. Anyone who apprenticed during the communist era will be a wizard because the black market required that nothing be thrown away. These guys learned how to re-use as a necessity. They can roll, shape, build up and bash anything within reason, often of nothing more than a cardboard template.
Retain control, drip feed money, insist on updates and give clear goals.
Specify that all work is to be to factory drawing etc to prevent any 'clever' solutions.
It's a brave move, but why not?
I have never done it however I do have a lot of experience of the quality of welding / fabrication work that is done in Ship Repair. Romaninan welder / fabricators are incredible and will turn out some amazing work. A lot of the Poles I have worked with are similarly talented.
You get what you pay for, don't expect 1/2 price but their best is cheaper than out best.
The older guys are better, and I mean old. Anyone who apprenticed during the communist era will be a wizard because the black market required that nothing be thrown away. These guys learned how to re-use as a necessity. They can roll, shape, build up and bash anything within reason, often of nothing more than a cardboard template.
Retain control, drip feed money, insist on updates and give clear goals.
Specify that all work is to be to factory drawing etc to prevent any 'clever' solutions.
It's a brave move, but why not?
Stick Legs said:
It's a brave move, but why not?
Simply because, in the instance of the pictures I show above, the owner of the company left the UK overnight under one big cloud, leaving a load of debts behind. He set up in Poland, talked the talk, and you'll get ripped off again. Trying to run a restoration in Poland from the UK is not going to be easy. How do you know that the ongoing photos are real, not photoshopped? I see that because of quality problems in Czechoslovakia, Lynx, formerly English for 40 years, have closed there and are moving production back to the UK. I saw some of their work at XK70, and was not impressed at all.lowdrag said:
Stick Legs said:
It's a brave move, but why not?
Simply because, in the instance of the pictures I show above, the owner of the company left the UK overnight under one big cloud, leaving a load of debts behind. He set up in Poland, talked the talk, and you'll get ripped off again. Trying to run a restoration in Poland from the UK is not going to be easy. How do you know that the ongoing photos are real, not photoshopped? I see that because of quality problems in Czechoslovakia, Lynx, formerly English for 40 years, have closed there and are moving production back to the UK. I saw some of their work at XK70, and was not impressed at all.Its the logistics that would concern me. Its a 1500 miles each way for a tow car and trailer to get the project there and get it back alone.
From what I've seen of people who have done (with varying degrees of success) most of the places there expect all parts required to be provided, other than body repair patches that need to be fabricated.
I've found that can be a PITA when making a 200 mile round trip to do that with mine, let alone having to make additional 3000 miles round trips or expensive air-freighting of parts and that's before we get into customs and duty issue once Brexit has happened.
We also have language issues, money issues, and lord knows what else.
I think if you know someone that can recommend a place having done it themselves, then that would be half the battle, and if the car didn't have huge value (like wanting a restoration of an Allegro or something like that!) so the lower restoration cost isn't a hugely significant x factor of its value, then it maybe worth the risk/chance?
Can I just clarify that the only part of the original Lynx company that went to Poland was the name, by the time that happened none of the original crew were still working for Lynx the name having been bought by new owners. Chris Keith Lucas was one of the two original founders and was our MD when the old company went into administration in 1991 IIRC, thankfully he is still very much in play today under the CKL banner with no connection to Poland.
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough Mike, but the company did stay in British hands and continue until about 2002 at St Leonard's on Sea under Mayston-Taylor. Then a break, then resurrected in Czechoslovakia.After an internecine war between directors the last I heard was that the company had closed in Czechoslovakia and was opening in the Midlands, but things seem to have gone awfully quiet.
Not a problem at all Tony, I just felt it important to make the point because the difference between restorers in Eastern Europe and the UK can be enormous, with the best will in the world they simply don't have the history, the years surrounded by proper cars, lives infused with experience and knowledge in depth etc etc and that is what the best UK restorers bring to the table. It will add to the cost of course but the difference in quality is all too evident and that extra value will stay with the car throughout it's life.
Edited by Mike-tf3n0 on Monday 15th June 16:00
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